Improving Kuuma Vapor-Fire installation experience

[lampmfg]

With us moving into our new facility and trying to improve everything we're looking for some feedback. Being that we really don't have any dealers, it's tough for some to find people willing to install our furnaces (especially correctly). For those of you who have installed one or those that are thinking about it, what would make it easier for you to tackle?? Dale spends a ton of time walking people through it via e-mail and phone, but it's tough for him to stay on top of everything while always doing this. We want to create some installation videos to assist.

On a side note, our new facility is fantastic, and we've been swamped, especially now going into the heating season. My dad ran our last R & D test on the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 200 last week and got excellent results. We are now going to try to get back on their schedule for official EPA testing after the waiting period. We appreciate all of the support we've received from everyone!

 

[Highbeam]

I would start by getting this picture the h-e-double hockey sticks off of your website. While I appreciate the thought, and I know this is a member here, this install just screams of excess difficulty. That cardboard is well within the minimum clearance to combustibles for the unit as well.

 

[Highbeam]

Second is the seemingly high rear clearance requirements of 12" behind the blower box. I expect that this is for maintenance access but it burns up a lot of space in a room. I expect that if you simply considered minimum safe clearance to combustibles from the actual furnace module, it would be much smaller.

 

[JRHAWK9]

I would start by getting this picture the h-e-double hockey sticks off of your website. While I appreciate the thought, and I know this is a member here, this install just screams of excess difficulty. That cardboard is well within the minimum clearance to combustibles for the unit as well.

Yeah, they should remove it and replace it with these, as that one is way out of date. LOL



BTW, the cardboard cold air "box out/riser" is not within the req'd 6", which is all that is needed with the ICC/Excel double walled stove pipe. I have exactly 6" from the double walled stove pipe to the Styrofoam insulation on the basement wall behind it. Even though it doesn't look like it in the photo, I actually have 8" between the cardboard and stove pipe. Stove pipe was installed by a National Fireplace Institute certified hearth & home company, the same company who installed my ICC/Excel chimney.

I would agree with you though, most people would look at my atypical install and think what in the heck, does Red Green live here? It's actually a conversation piece every time somebody comes downstairs and sees it. Don't care how ugly it is, it performs and that's all that matters to me.

 

[brenndatomu]

Second is the seemingly high rear clearance requirements of 12" behind the blower box. I expect that this is for maintenance access but it burns up a lot of space in a room. I expect that if you simply considered minimum safe clearance to combustibles from the actual furnace module, it would be much smaller.

That's a pretty normal distance...on the low side low even...and pretty much just what is needed if you are going to install a properly sized return air duct...and just FYI, I've installed more different furnaces than probably anybody else on this site short of someone who does it for a living.

I would start by getting this picture the h-e-double hockey sticks off of your website. While I appreciate the thought, and I know this is a member here, this install just screams of excess difficulty. That cardboard is well within the minimum clearance to combustibles for the unit as well.
View attachment 249360

What, you don't like the SpaceHawk100?!
I suppose you'd bellyache if you were hung with a new rope too!

More on topic...the videos that you guys have now are a step in the right direction for sure...might wanna make them easier to find on your website though...I personally find it sometimes hard to locate specific information when on your current website.
And the electrical diagram that comes in the manual is...ahhh...hard to read and kinda confusing, at best...and I do electrical work frequently, so I am fairly familiar...can't imagine how the average DIY homeowner would get along with it. I made a suggestion to Dale last fall to update the diagram, and I think he did a pretty good job with it...the update just needs to be in the manual now too...and easy to find on the site for anyone with the old diagram still.
Beyond that, I think Dale, or someone, will always continue to receive lots of calls for help, just because no matter how much info you put out, and how well your videos are done, this is still a pretty complicated job to undertake for many people...heck, just reading (all too many) threads on this site will show that in this industry, sometimes even the dealers/"pros" don't really know what they are doing either! (or maybe lazy/don't care?)
You guys have things headed in the right direction for sure @lampmfg , keep it up! And congrats on the recent long awaited achievements!

 

[JRHAWK9]

I dunno, I've never installed anything like this before and I thought the install was pretty straight forward. I agree with bren though, the electrical diagram in the manual was a bit confusing. Another thing, which you guys can't do anything about seeing you don't supply a plenum, is to place the snap switch in a better location. maybe make a note in the manual how it's recommended it be moved into the plenum. However, this is making the install harder, not easier. Speaking of the snap switch, why do you need one? I'm pretty sure the Honeywell fan limit control you include can do everything, as that's how I have mine setup. It's much more accurate and consistent.

 

[brenndatomu]

I'm pretty sure the Honeywell fan limit control you include can do everything, as that's how I have mine setup. It's much more accurate and consistent.

Yes, my original snap switch was completely goofy, so was the replacement...a used Honeywell fan control/limit switch that I had laying around solved the issue though...plus it has a wide adjustment range too

 

[Highbeam]

BTW, the cardboard cold air "box out/riser" is not within the req'd 6", which is all that is needed with the ICC/Excel double walled stove pipe. I have exactly 6" from the double walled stove pipe to the Styrofoam insulation on the basement wall behind it. Even though it doesn't look like it in the photo, I actually have 8" between the cardboard and stove pipe.

When I read the website, it says the required clearance is 12" behind the blower box and 6" beside the appliance. Nothing about the pipe but we know the pipe has fixed requirements for single wall or double wall. Since your cardboard is touching the blower box, it is within the required clearances.

Exposed styrofoam insulation in the basement? That's a building code violation even without the stove. You really don't want that stuff catching on fire!

But hey, this thread is about improving the install of a kuuma. I sure wish I had experience actually installing one. Just dreaming and reading through the manual.

 

[Highbeam]

That's a pretty normal distance...on the low side low even...and pretty much just what is needed if you are going to install a properly sized return air duct..

Is there any reason that the side of the blower box can't be used for the return air? Maybe then you can regain the lost 12" of depth. These things are just big.

What, you don't like the SpaceHawk100?!
I suppose you'd bellyache if you were hung with a new rope too!

Whether I like it or not, the photo shows the opposite of a simple installation. Might even be a risky one with an intake to the return plenum right at the firebox door, not meeting clearance requirements, etc.

 

[brenndatomu]

Is there any reason that the side of the blower box can't be used for the return air? Maybe then you can regain the lost 12" of depth. These things are just big.

I think you could...would take some fabrication is all. Other brands do it.
Lamppa MFG. would likely even build it that way for you if needed...I know I read where they have even switched the direction the door opens and the location of the computer for a special order...

 

[JRHAWK9]

When I read the website, it says the required clearance is 12" behind the blower box and 6" beside the appliance. Nothing about the pipe but we know the pipe has fixed requirements for single wall or double wall. Since your cardboard is touching the blower box, it is within the required clearances.

Exposed styrofoam insulation in the basement? That's a building code violation even without the stove. You really don't want that stuff catching on fire!

But hey, this thread is about improving the install of a kuuma. I sure wish I had experience actually installing one. Just dreaming and reading through the manual.

That whole cardboard thing was done years ago just as an experiment. It worked so I left it in place with plans to have a sheet metal one constructed during the summer. I had three companies out to give me a quote and never heard back. So there it sits. Would love to get rid of it but I have ZERO knowledge or experience in pounding tin.

I'm guessing it's not actual Styrofoam, but it's the inside wall of the ICF form used to form up the poured concrete basement walls.

(broken link removed to https://www.cement.org/cement-concrete-applications/paving/buildings-structures/concrete-homes/building-systems-for-every-need/insulating-concrete-forms-(ICFs))

 

[lampmfg]

I would start by getting this picture the h-e-double hockey sticks off of your website. While I appreciate the thought, and I know this is a member here, this install just screams of excess difficulty. That cardboard is well within the minimum clearance to combustibles for the unit as well.
View attachment 249360

OK - good idea.

 

[brenndatomu]

I would start by getting this picture the h-e-double hockey sticks off of your website. While I appreciate the thought, and I know this is a member here, this install just screams of excess difficulty.

Get to thinking about this a bit more...you do have a point, but with all the many install pics on their site, it is obvious, at least to anybody with the intelligence level that is capable of doing a DIY Kuuma install, that JR's SpaceHawk100© is not a "normal" setup...I don't think it is gonna scare anyone away...

 

[lampmfg]

Is there any reason that the side of the blower box can't be used for the return air? Maybe then you can regain the lost 12" of depth. These things are just big.

You need to use the filters and they are on the back end.


Whether I like it or not, the photo shows the opposite of a simple installation. Might even be a risky one with an intake to the return plenum right at the firebox door, not meeting clearance requirements, etc.

 

[lampmfg]

Yes, my original snap switch was completely goofy, so was the replacement...a used Honeywell fan control/limit switch that I had laying around solved the issue though...plus it has a wide adjustment range too

We need to use the snap switch since it ul and epa tested with it on. We have the right button thermostat to keep out condensation if it’s set incorrectly. We do understand that it can be used the other way if you don’t set it to low.

 

[lampmfg]

Second is the seemingly high rear clearance requirements of 12" behind the blower box. I expect that this is for maintenance access but it burns up a lot of space in a room. I expect that if you simply considered minimum safe clearance to combustibles from the actual furnace module, it would be much smaller.

It has to be enough area in the back once the cold air return is hooked up that you get at least 200 square inches through the filters, so it doesn’t need to be quite 12”, but would rather have more area than less.