First Timer Stove Recs/Guidance - 1,300 SF Northern NH

[N_Weeks]

My spouse and I bought her grandfather's home in Glen, NH (Mount Washington Valley) earlier this year and have been doing some extensive and necessary upgrades all summer. Part of the pre-move-in process was getting the chimney and stove inspected/cleaned, which happened this week. Long story short, the early-'80s VC Vigilant II is A) way too much for that house and kind of beat up and B) too big for 6" chimney it was installed in. As a result of this revelation, we've now added new wood stove to the list of immediate improvements. We're not new to burning wood, but this is the first time we've had to research and buy one, so I'm looking for some guidance from the more seasoned vets.

Some information on house/needs:

1. House size: 1,322 SF with 28 x 28 floor plate. Ground floor is "great room" with +/- 18' vaulted ceiling, kitchen open to GR, and one bedroom. Staircase to upstairs is open and leads to small catwalk that accesses two bedrooms.
2. Chimney: located in center of house. Masonry chimney with 6" flues (hairline fracture discovered during inspection, so we'll be lining it). Height from ground for FFE in neighborhood of 20' - 22'
3. Hearth: masonry, 43" w x 40" deep with extension to left side at angle
4. Heating needs:
   1. Would like to use wood as primary heat source with gas-fired forced hot air furnace as backup. Furnace is from '90s so trying to baby it as much as possible because I don't want to add that to the list of to-dos.
   2. Will be burning seasoned wood purchased from local outfit; friend who recommended them burns the same wood in Hearthstone Heritage without issue. A lot of oak, maple, etc. Northern NH hardwoods.
   3. No need to keep house constantly at 75 deg., but don't mind spikes at fresh load

We visited a couple local stove shops this week, each of which gave us different recommendations. One adamantly opposed to cats, the other cool with them. Didn't get a ton of help re: sizing and appropriateness for space. Still trying to decide stove material, but we're leaning toward soap for longer, more stable heat. If good cast iron is a close enough approximation of it, could go either way--again, looking for people with more experience. Right now we've got a couple options on the table, but could go any direction based on feedback from woodstove people. Below are the options in no particular order:

Hearthstone Shelburn
Jotul F45 V2 Greenville (although it looks like this has been discontinued, and doesn't really fit our hearth layout)
Lopi Evergreen
Woodstock Ideal Steel Hybrid

Some pics of the inside of the house from various stages of reno attached for assistance. Open to any thoughts, suggestions, etc. Thank you, everyone!

Nate

 

[begreen]

The current hearth is fairly shallow but if the wall behind it is all masonry, then the stove can be installed without concerns for clearances. Just allow room enough for servicing the blower if there is one. The Ideal Steel is a large heater. I'm surprised to see it mentioned. If the goal is less intense heat than the Vigilant puts out, then consider something in the medium size like the Lopi.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

Will be burning seasoned wood purchased from local outfit; friend who recommended them burns the same wood in Hearthstone Heritage without issue. A lot of oak, maple, etc. Northern NH hardwoods.

Be very cautious of firewood sellers advertising seasoned wood. The stuff that ran in your old stove may not work well in the stoves you are interested in. Invest in a moisture meter(and use it correctly) that can take the guesswork out of things.

 

[N_Weeks]

The current hearth is fairly shallow but if the wall behind it is all masonry, then the stove can be installed without concerns for clearances. Just allow room enough for servicing the blower if there is one. The Ideal Steel is a large heater. I'm surprised to see it mentioned. If the goal is less intense heat than the Vigilant puts out, then consider something in the medium size like the Lopi.

This is the sort of feedback I'm looking for, so thank you. The chimney is all masonry, so the plan is to push the stove back closer to to allow for adequate clearance in front of the door.

Ideal Steel has been a "this is interesting" option, but if it's oversized then I have no issue removing it from the list. I don't have any direct experience with the Vigilant, but from what her father says, it was always unbearably hot in the house when her grandfather was running the stove back in the day.

My biggest question mark is sizing. Hesitant to undersize, but I also don't want to buy too much stove for the house and not be able run it hot enough. The layout of our house makes me feel like a the size down from the Shelburne could work just fine since we can very easily make it a 850 SF area, but am curious how that choice might bite us during the -15F cold snaps.

 

[N_Weeks]

Be very cautious of firewood sellers advertising seasoned wood. The stuff that ran in your old stove may not work well in the stoves you are interested in. Invest in a moisture meter(and use it correctly) that can take the guesswork out of things.

So I've heard. I have heard good things about the guy I bought from from those who use with their new cat stoves. Plus a moisture test of the stuff tells me it checks out. Always good to keep an eye out!

 

[begreen]

Grandpa may have been pushing the Vigilant hard because he liked it hot. That doesn't necessarily mean it was grossly oversized. Stoves have a wide range of output depending on the amount of fuel and air fed to the fire.

FWIW, I like the Evergreen better than the Shelburne's hybrid implementation. A mid-sized Osburn, Regency, or Pacific Energy stove would also work.

 

[Todd]

Since you’re in the neighborhood I would take a drive to Woodstock Soapstone.

I think you can still purchase the Jotul F45 if the dealers still have them in stock. They discontinued this stove because they are upgrading it. Another Jotul you could consider is the new F445.

 

[N_Weeks]

Grandpa may have been pushing the Vigilant hard because he liked it hot. That doesn't necessarily mean it was grossly oversized. Stoves have a wide range of output depending on the amount of fuel and air fed to the fire.

FWIW, I like the Evergreen better than the Shelburne's hybrid implementation. A mid-sized Osburn, Regency, or Pacific Energy stove would also work.

lol, I never got a chance to meet the guy but I get the sense that was the case.

That is helpful, thank you. Out of curiosity, what pushes the Evergreen's tech over that of the Shelburne's? Like I said, I'm new to this so I'm, not familiar with the nuances that separate how one stove functions vs. another.

 

[N_Weeks]

Since you’re in the neighborhood I would take a drive to Woodstock Soapstone.

I think you can still purchase the Jotul F45 if the dealers still have them in stock. They discontinued this stove because they are upgrading it. Another Jotul you could consider is the new F445.

I've heard great things about the Woodstock stoves. They came highly recommended from our chimney guy. Biggest issue with those is nearly all of them are left open only, and that setup doesn't work with our hearth layout. New wood floors are being installed as we speak, so redoing the hearth isn't at the top of my wish list...for now.

I'll check out the F445. If it fits our compressed layout, might be another viable option. Thank you!

 

[begreen]

That is helpful, thank you. Out of curiosity, what pushes the Evergreen's tech over that of the Shelburne's? Like I said, I'm new to this so I'm, not familiar with the nuances that separate how one stove functions vs. another.

Catalyst placement. Ease of servicing.

 

[stoveliker]

Given the tall ceilings, I'd go for a stove that is as radiant as possible. Heat goes up, so you'll need a ceiling fan to mix it down again - and having more radiation to reach you when you're lounging on the couch will make it feel better than having a stove that only (well, predominantly) puts out warm air through convection.

I see one ceiling fan, rather low. I think that's not going to be enough. I'd get another one, and see if you can mount it higher.

Of course, aesthetics matter too in stove choice as you'll be looking at it for a long time...

 

[shortys7777]

I don't know much about those stoves but I'm jealous of the area you live. Make sure you have a fan or 2 to circulate the air or upstairs will be wicked hot. Start stacking wood now for next winter.

 

[N_Weeks]

Given the tall ceilings, I'd go for a stove that is as radiant as possible. Heat goes up, so you'll need a ceiling fan to mix it down again - and having more radiation to reach you when you're lounging on the couch will make it feel better than having a stove that only (well, predominantly) puts out warm air through convection.

I see one ceiling fan, rather low. I think that's not going to be enough. I'd get another one, and see if you can mount it higher.

Of course, aesthetics matter too in stove choice as you'll be looking at it for a long time...

Appreciate the input, thank you. We will be replacing that ceiling fan at some point and have plans for more lighting on the other side of the great room, so maybe that side will also see a fan depending on how this winter feels. The great room is tighter than the pictures might lead you to believe, so leaning toward a stove with a gentler radiant heat so it's not overpowering...not sure if that's a legit concern or not, just what's in my novice brain right now.

 

[N_Weeks]

I don't know much about those stoves but I'm jealous of the area you live. Make sure you have a fan or 2 to circulate the air or upstairs will be wicked hot. Start stacking wood now for next winter.

Thanks--it sure is nice up here if you like mountains! There is a fan in there currently, so we'll see how it goes with the one before we start screwing with the plaster ceiling.

Got about seven cord stacked outside right now, so we're at least a year ahead, if not more.

 

[stoveliker]

Appreciate the input, thank you. We will be replacing that ceiling fan at some point and have plans for more lighting on the other side of the great room, so maybe that side will also see a fan depending on how this winter feels. The great room is tighter than the pictures might lead you to believe, so leaning toward a stove with a gentler radiant heat so it's not overpowering...not sure if that's a legit concern or not, just what's in my novice brain right now.

I think you are confusing two issues.

First there is the amount of BTUs you need. Second is how those are delivered.

A tighter and well-insulated building means you may need less BTUs. That is what you refer to here. But that was not my point.

My point was how the BTUs (however many are produced by the stove) are provided. Through (IR) radiation versus through convection.
Of course every stove will do both, but there are differences in the fraction of BTUs shed through the different modes.

If most of the BTUs come out via convecting air, most of it will directly go up. That's what warm air does.
Radiant heat will eventually go up too (because one way or another it'll heat "things" which will heat air), but you will feel it more at ground level first (you being the "thing" that is heated up).


So a stove with a lower range of outputs (lower of course being relative) as you seem to refer to is not the same as the point I was trying to make.

 

[N_Weeks]

I think you are confusing two issues.

First there is the amount of BTUs you need. Second is how those are delivered.

A tighter and well-insulated building means you may need less BTUs. That is what you refer to here. But that was not my point.

My point was how the BTUs (however many are produced by the stove) are provided. Through (IR) radiation versus through convection.
Of course every stove will do both, but there are differences in the fraction of BTUs shed through the different modes.

If most of the BTUs come out via convecting air, most of it will directly go up. That's what warm air does.
Radiant heat will eventually go up too (because one way or another it'll heat "things" which will heat air), but you will feel it more at ground level first (you being the "thing" that is heated up).


So a stove with a lower range of outputs (lower of course being relative) as you seem to refer to is not the same as the point I was trying to make.

Thanks for the clarification. What I was trying to say re: gentle vs. intense radiant was more about the the material the stove is constructed out of, i.e. steel box, cast iron, or soapstone. It's my understanding that the feel of the heat produced by a stove that heats through radiation differs some depending on material. I could be wrong, though, so forgive my ignorance if that's the case. If I am wrong, that's exactly why I'm here.

What I'm trying to avoid is the searing heat I've felt from some steel (?) stoves in the past. Based on what I've gleaned through this forum and other parts of the internet, it seems that most traditional wood stoves tend toward heating radiantly, but does material make a difference in the feel of the heat if size and BTUs are kept constant between stoves? I realize "feel" is subjective, but in general, people seem to perceive heat pretty consistently, so this is the best way I can describe it.

 

[stoveliker]

There are some changes where e.g. soapstone takes longer to heat up and longer to cool down, decreasing the peak heat.
Radiation from different materials that are at the same temperature won't be appreciably different (e.g. steel and soap stone at 350 degrees will feel the same; and the higher the temperature of the material the more the same they feel (the more similar their infrared emission spectrum is)).

I had the impression that most modern stoves won't be as searing as the older single-wall steel boxes.

I have a steel stove that is not at all radiant; it has a second layer around the firebox allowing for convective heat shedding. This is because the outer layer steel is less hot due to the air flow between the two layers, and thus the radiant heat coming off of that outer layer into the room is a lower intensity because the temp of the steel is lower.)
So it's not steel that makes something searing. It's the design (my steel stove is not like that) and the resulting temperature of the room-facing material that makes something like that.

Regarding a soap stone stove, the lower the temperature of the exposed stone (and the peak temps will be lower because of the effect of soap stone evening out heat), the more the fraction of radiative heat shedding decreases (and, given the same efficiency, i.e. the same amount of heat going up the flue), the more BTUs are shedded via the convective channel.

My opinion is that a more radiative stove would work best for you because the heat reaches you directly rather than having to move around with fans etc. Radiative BTUs happen best when the stove outer surface is hottest.

Note also that radiative heat *felt* by a person will decrease quickly with distance. Sitting next to a stove at 2 ft might be searing, but sitting 4 ft away will have cut the radiative load to 25% of that, and at 8 ft it will be half of that. So the layout of the room is relevant too.

That's my opinion - which is as we all know worth as much as you paid for it...

 

[N_Weeks]

There are some changes where e.g. soapstone takes longer to heat up and longer to cool down, decreasing the peak heat.
Radiation from different materials that are at the same temperature won't be appreciably different (e.g. steel and soap stone at 350 degrees will feel the same; and the higher the temperature of the material the more the same they feel (the more similar their infrared emission spectrum is)).

I had the impression that most modern stoves won't be as searing as the older single-wall steel boxes.

I have a steel stove that is not at all radiant; it has a second layer around the firebox allowing for convective heat shedding. This is because the outer layer steel is less hot due to the air flow between the two layers, and thus the radiant heat coming off of that outer layer into the room is a lower intensity because the temp of the steel is lower.)
So it's not steel that makes something searing. It's the design (my steel stove is not like that) and the resulting temperature of the room-facing material that makes something like that.

Regarding a soap stone stove, the lower the temperature of the exposed stone (and the peak temps will be lower because of the effect of soap stone evening out heat), the more the fraction of radiative heat shedding decreases (and, given the same efficiency, i.e. the same amount of heat going up the flue), the more BTUs are shedded via the convective channel.

My opinion is that a more radiative stove would work best for you because the heat reaches you directly rather than having to move around with fans etc. Radiative BTUs happen best when the stove outer surface is hottest.

Note also that radiative heat *felt* by a person will decrease quickly with distance. Sitting next to a stove at 2 ft might be searing, but sitting 4 ft away will have cut the radiative load to 25% of that, and at 8 ft it will be half of that. So the layout of the room is relevant too.

That's my opinion - which is as we all know worth as much as you paid for it...

I know some things about some things, but thermodynamics is not on that list. Therefore, from what I've read, your opinion probably holds more weight than mine would on this topic, so I'm listening. Comments on double-wall construction and heat-zones are great points.

At this point, based on talks with the local stove guys and lots of internet time, its down to the Lopi Evergreen and Hearthstone Shelburne. Comparable firebox sizes and they both fit my hearth nicely. Only concern with the Evergreen is, if it's double-walled, it won't achieve the heating you've described so well, and that the cat placement might be problematic (depending on who you ask). For the Shelburne, main worry would be smoke rollout that some have discussed...but assuming my 22', straight up, interior chimney does its job, this might not be a problem, or at least I hope not. Almost feels like splitting hairs at this point, hah.

Again, I appreciate the effort you've taken to educate. Once I learn about all these stoves, all that'll be left is to learn how to use them!

 

[stoveliker]

I agree, 22' straight up is likely going to be fine.
Likely... (depending on tightness of the home, other appliances that exhaust air, local geography (hills, roofs, trees, and wind), elevation, etc.).
One can always keep splitting hairs - until one reaches the atomic scale

I don't know enough about the two stoves you mention to have a preference.
And at some point aesthetics matter too given that you'll be looking at the thing for years to come.

 

[begreen]

What I'm trying to avoid is the searing heat I've felt from some steel (?) stoves in the past. Based on what I've gleaned through this forum and other parts of the internet, it seems that most traditional wood stoves tend toward heating radiantly, but does material make a difference in the feel of the heat if size and BTUs are kept constant between stoves? I realize "feel" is subjective, but in general, people seem to perceive heat pretty consistently, so this is the best way I can describe it.

I recommend getting a cast iron clad, steel stove. The cast iron jacket acts as a buffer that softens the radiant heat and also smooths out room temperature swing. The Jotul F35 and F55 and Pacific Energy T5 and T6 are good choice in non-cats. The Blaze King Ashford is a good catalytic option.

 

[BKVP]

As for the crack in the current chimney, it may be an insulated stainless liner can address the concern and offer you piece of mind. (Check to see size of crack to make this decision) An insulated liner will help with draft and stove performance overall regardless of the stove you purchase.

Also the stove pipe on the current stove looks to be single wall. You may wish to replace that with black double wall. All the stoves you are considering are very efficient. In as much, stack temps are not nearly what they use to be in wood stoves. While greater efficiency is fine, indoor air quality also needs to be a priority. A poor setup can result in smoke spillage into the room.

The Federal Tax Credit, which is up to $2,000 for qualifying units (and qualifying tax payers), can hep with the cost of the stove, chimney system and installation.

BKVP

 

[N_Weeks]

Morning, Gang -

New stove and liner installed this past Wednesday, so popping back in here to update. After working with a couple local stove shops and installers, many questions, and a lot of time spent digging around the internet, I landed on:

• Hearthstone Shelburne
• Double wall stove pipe
• 5.5" stainless liner, 21' (flue tiles were cracked and slightly offset, so had to downsize)

Came down to this one and the Lopi Evergreen. We ultimately ended up with the Shelburne because of 1) dealer and installer experience, and 2) aesthetics (it's the centerpiece of the house). All else felt pretty equal with the two stoves with only minor differences. Hearthstone's mothership is also only an hour away, so that felt better. Installer (shout out to Alpine Stove) was able to give me plenty of loading side clearance by working the stove pipe to get the stove right up against the chimney, so that's a relief.

Did a handful of small, a little bigger, a little bigger, etc. break-in fires since then and this morning is the first "real" fire. 23 F outside when I started at 6 AM, got the stove up to 575 and it's been cruising ever since. Drafts great, no smoke issues; this is what I saw the most chatter about on this forum so I'm glad it's working as intended. Most of my wood is what I have found to be "good enough" at 18% - 19%, which, having just moved in this fall, is a relief. Might have to be selective on some of the stuff I put through this winter, but looking forward to burning the stuff with multiple seasons next winter.

One thing I noticed during the break-ins was that the glass got dirty pretty much every time--could this be a wood issue, or just because I was burning at low temps with restricted air flow? My assumption based on my split MC tests is that some of them were a tick over the 20% threshold, but since I'm new to this I will continue to question everything.

Anyway, I feel like this forum could use more positive notes on this stove, so I'll update periodically. So far, so good, but I will come back if I have questions. Thanks to everyone who responded to the original questions in this thread, it was all super helpful!

 

[BKVP]

Looks super! Try loading N/S to see if glass stays cleaner...

BKVP

 

[Trevor Tahclep]

Possible issues, internal firebox temp too low, you need more air to obtain higher internal temps. Wood moisture is too high ( re-split existing splits and verify the moisture content in the middle of the freshly exposed opened face ). If possible to load front to back (north-south) try that. Use smaller splits to obtain higher internal temps initially, 2'' to 3'', you may need to re-split some of your existing wood, once you been burning hotter for a couple of hours and the glass clears up you can ad larger splits.
Usually a smoked/dirty glass clears up when the internal fire temp is sufficiently high and for a good while, the heat/fire burns the soot, carbon and crap off. Dirty glass confirms burning too low, wood not quite ready to burn, poor draft or a combination of.