Indoor, Outdoor, Boiler, or Insert?

[robmints]

Hi all. Nice group you have here. Been reading a while and all the info has confused me more than when I started. So I still need help.

I want to augment my oil furnace heat with a wood heat source. I started by looking for inserts so I could put one in the 500sqft basement family room and use the central return at the top of the steps to circulate the warm air through the house. So it would let me turn off the oil heat in the basement and the residual would get sucked up the stairs and blow around a little. But when I talked to the Quadrafire dealer he recommended not putting it in the basement fireplace because of the plasma hanging above the fireplace. The bottom of the plasma is 37.5 inches off the floor. The Pioneer people said 90 deg f was fine but that was the upper limit.

My friend at work has had a wood burning hot water furnace for about 20 years and loves it. But all the furnaces I have found are large, complicated, and expensive. His is very simple. It makes heat and circulates it with the oil burner circ pump and if it is not making enough heat the separate oil burner furnace comes on and heats the water. No fancy tanks or controls.

My neighbor recommends an outdoor furnace but I'm kind of unclear on some things. Most of them are large, complicated,and expensive. And another big worry is with the stack so low the smoke blowing towards the house or the neighbors houses.

I just want to heat with some wood without going to the poor house to get there.

Thanks.

 

[Hogwildz]

Rather than an insert in the basement, then trying to circulate that heat up to the main level. Why not consider a free stander on the main level? Or if you must have it in the basement, why not move the plasma?

 

[webbie]

I would council against most OWB (outdoor wood boilers) for a number of reasons, the large quantities of wood and lack of clean burning innards being the top two......

I would also not suggest using a house return to circulate air in general - beside the fact that this does not really seem to work for most folks.

An indoor high efficiency wood boiler can be a good solution - but you are going to go partway to the poor house to install one complete with chimney....still, you may want to go over to the boiler room and check things out with the members there....

As far as the stove in the fireplace, really can't say how hot it is going to get a 37". - You can use blowers and heat shields to get these temps down.

welcome to the forum.

 

[begreen]

You are looking at a lot of options. Who is going to install this heater? Do you have the skills and are you comfortable doing this? If yes, cool. If not, your budget may be tighter. Have you considered a supplemental, forced air, wood furnace that attaches correctly to the existing hot air system? There are several on the market. Englander makes one that is reasonably priced.

To do this you would need a separate flue for the furnace. It *might* be able to use the existing furnace flue if the furnace can be power vented. Or perhaps a flue can be added. Can you provide some more information about the house size, insulation, existing heating system etc. And if interested, post some pictures of the current furnace and duct plenum.

 

[woodconvert]

"I would council against most OWB (outdoor wood boilers) for a number of reasons, the large quantities of wood and lack of clean burning innards being the top two......"

My thoughts exactly. Also, there is maintenance that needs to be done on those. Another, and it's a main reason i'd never own one is that when the power goes out, unless you have a generator hookup, you are out of the heating business. That and they really do use a lot of wood. (a co-worker of mine had one. He used 3x as much wood as I did in roughly the same size house).

A free standing stove would be a chunk o' cash to install where one isn't but it'll pay itself off rather quickly and they are much less fuss.

 

[velvetfoot]

Do you spend most of your time in the basement?
If not, maybe you could put it on on first floor.

 

[robmints]

Rather than an insert in the basement, then trying to circulate that heat up to the main level. Why not consider a free stander on the main level? Or if you must have it in the basement, why not move the plasma?

I could have an insert on the main level because we do have another fireplace up there but I don't think my wife would want the mess that might be involved. As much as I say I would be neat and clean sometimes I'm not as diligent as she would like. She also likes the plasma where it is because of how the basement is laid out.

I would also not suggest using a house return to circulate air in general - beside the fact that this does not really seem to work for most folks. As far as the stove in the fireplace, really can’t say how hot it is going to get a 37”. - You can use blowers and heat shields to get these temps down.

Thanks for the advise, glad I asked about the ac fan. Does anyone have pics of an install with a tv over an insert or stove with a deflector?

You are looking at a lot of options. Who is going to install this heater? Do you have the skills and are you comfortable doing this? If yes, cool. If not, your budget may be tighter. Have you considered a supplemental, forced air, wood furnace that attaches correctly to the existing hot air system? There are several on the market. Englander makes one that is reasonably priced.

To do this you would need a separate flue for the furnace. It *might* be able to use the existing furnace flue if the furnace can be power vented. Or perhaps a flue can be added. Can you provide some more information about the house size, insulation, existing heating system etc. And if interested, post some pictures of the current furnace and duct plenum.

Most likely I would install. I have the skills but not the technical knowledge to install the controls for a furnace type heat source that would plump into my hot water system. I do not heat with hot air, I have a hot water oil furnace in the basement and hw baseboard. I have an electric hw heater. No provisions for summer/winter hook up. I have my AC A coil and fan in the attic, it does not have any duct work to the basement and no good way to get it there. The ac just drops vents out of the first floor ceiling and a central return at the top of the basement steps. I have 3 separate flues in a common chimney. About 1800 sqft total, basement family area 500 sqft. Rancher with walkout basement.

Do you spend most of your time in the basement?

During the winter, yes.

A free standing stove would be a chunk o’ cash to install where one isn’t but it’ll pay itself off rather quickly and they are much less fuss.

I do have another fireplace but the one in the basement is where I have clearance from the Interior Minister to put a stove.

Thanks for the help and thoughts guys. Sure wish they still made simple, small hot water furnaces like my co-worker has. But I think he said the company was out of business and the store where he bought it closed up. I guess i could buy parts and plans but that sounds too time consuming. Maybe not totally out of the question though. I'm starting to think if I can get the insert under the tv it would be the best way for me. Any recommendations on how to deflect the heat and stove brands and models. The only insert I have considered so far has been the Quadrafire 2700i. Thanks again.

 

[begreen]

OK, man cave, I got the picture. I was thrown off by the terms furnace instead of boiler and central return air.

Sounds like you have the right idea with an insert. Could you put a non-combustible mantle (like stone?) as a heat shield?

For stove size, I'd like to have a better idea about how the heat may get upstairs, how open is the basement floorplan, how open is the staircase?

 

[Henz]

sounds to me like a wood insert in the existing fireplace is your best most cost effective bet. You will just have to move that plasma

 

[begreen]

Here's a link about fireplaces and plasma screens. They can coexist and often do. It just takes a little planning. A flush mount insert would probably work best. And I would consider a stone mantle to act as a heat shield.
http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv-questions/plasmatvfire_1.html#11109240


Frankly given the wattage of a plasma screen and AVR amps, I'm a little surprised that you need heat in the space. A 60" plasma + a healthy sized home theater amp can oftern draw 1500watts combined.

 

[elkimmeg]

Has anyone considered the combustion air required for the boiler and a wood stove and if a dryer is in that basement before too much discussion occurs ?

 

[Henz]

sounds to me like this is just a finished room that is in the basement and probably has a seperate laundry room..the dude has a plasma TV for Ch*** sakes

 

[robmints]

Sounds like you have the right idea with an insert. Could you put a non-combustible mantle (like stone?) as a heat shield?

For stove size, I’d like to have a better idea about how the heat may get upstairs, how open is the basement floorplan, how open is the staircase?

I sure could put a stone mantle up. It would be real low for a mantle, but doing it is no problem. Would a steel deflector do anything? Sure sounds like something that would insulate would be better. I'm assuming some types of stone would insulate. What type should I get? Or is there any other material I should consider?

sounds to me like a wood insert in the existing fireplace is your best most cost effective bet. You will just have to move that plasma

Not real sure moving the TV is going to fly. I think I'm stuck with a work around.

http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv-questions/plasmatvfire_1.html#11109240

Frankly given the wattage of a plasma screen and AVR amps, I’m a little surprised that you need heat in the space. A 60” plasma + a healthy sized home theater amp can oftern draw 1500watts combined.

Thanks for the link, I had seen it before in other threads. The TV is just a 50 and no home theater. The room is a walk out and my wife is one of those people that sleeps with the window open all year round so the cold tends to fall down the steps a bit as the bedroom is at the top of the basement steps.

Has anyone considered the combustion air required for the boiler and a wood stove and if a dryer is in that basement before too much discussion occurs ?

I did not even think about where the air would come from of if any was needed. But now I got my old plans out and my calculator. The main floor is 1624 sqft. The basement at one end has a side load 22x26 garage. At the other end is a 27x20 family room. And in between is a small foyer where the bottom of the steps are, a 14x12 laundry room, and a 12x8 furnace room. The stair way upstairs is an open stairway with no doors or walls and just a railing all the way around at the top. It's pretty open from the basement foyer up to the main floor. The family room does have a regular 6'6"x30 interior door to that foyer so the door way will significantly restrict how the heat will flow upstairs.

sounds to me like this is just a finished room that is in the basement and probably has a seperate laundry room..the dude has a plasma TV for Ch*** sakes

Yep separate laundry room. Tall cotton here in Maryland. Every road should be named Easy Street. I'll leave that wide open for sister and girlfriend jokes.

Really appreciate all the help.

 

[Gooserider]

Not sure if all the boilers are as expensive and fancy as some of the ones that the guys in the Boiler Room have mostly been talking about. I would strongly suggest that you start a seperate thread over there asking about simple boiler setups. These are likely going to be more complex and expensive than an air system by their nature, but it sounds like a boiler is more what you'd really like, and it would probably do a better job of heating your entire house than an insert would.

(I'm not moving the thread because it looks like this one is getting focused on the insert solution.)

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

It sounds like a small insert would suffice here. You'll want one with a quiet, multi-speed blower. I would suggest you also think about opening up the doorway if you want to permanently increase the heat transfer out of the room. Could you add a large horizontal opening over the doorway or on the wall that is next to the staircase? It could have a removable window in it if you are trying to contain cooling in the summer.

Yes, a metal deflector would also work and would help a lot. I just think a stone mantle would look better and more intentional. Think of it as a deflector, not an insulator.

 

[robmints]

I think I will go with an insert and see how that works out. I can always add additional heat for the rest of the house later. This is the FP where I would like to put the insert:

The local dealers carry Quad, Kozy, VC, and Harman. There does not seem to much in the way of internet outlets for these inserts. I'm not expecting much help from a dealer, I have been getting more help here than the dealers I have contacted.

My BIL insists that his Quad ?5000i? pushes the heat away from the stove and above the stove where my tv is stays not far off room temperature. The 2700i I was considering looked like it needed 42 inches to a combustible mantle and looking at the 3000i it says 37 inches to a combustible mantle. Does any of this sound reasonable? I would be getting a blower for sure and adding a deflector. Any thoughts on the amount of heat radiated from the bricks behind the TV? Just from reading the recommendos most here have given others they like the larger fire box on the 3000i over the 2700i because it adds more flexibility that is why I started looking at the 3000i. Anybody have opinions about the other brands or thoughts about the install?

 

[begreen]

Looks like a blank wall on the right. Any possibility of rearranging the room and putting the screen there? It might simplify things.

 

[velvetfoot]

I have the 2700i, which is pretty much flush., so you wouldn't have to extend the hearth, probably.
Mine is in a prefab fireplace however, so I don't know how that affects you.
It doesn't get too hot above the insert with the fan running, even not too fast.
Since I recently got one of those touch free thermometer guns, I'll try to remember to take some readings above the insert this weeked when I have a pretty good fire going.
The people I talk to at work who have stoves in the basement to heat the house all have it really hot down there. Bear in mind your basement is only 500ft2 and I keep my downstairs (1000ft2) pretty toasty with the 2700i.
I used to have a Quad 2100i which they don't make anymore but it looks like the 3100i and it extended out on the hearth a little-I didn't have a fan on it and the mantle got pretty hot and I had it more than the minimum above it for sure.
Here is what my install looks like.

 

[robmints]

Looks like a blank wall on the right. Any possibility of rearranging the room and putting the screen there? It might simplify things.

That is going to be reserved for plan B right now. I would like to try some things like a mantle first.

I have the 2700i, which is pretty much flush., so you wouldn’t have to extend the hearth, probably.
Mine is in a prefab fireplace however, so I don’t know how that affects you.
It doesn’t get too hot above the insert with the fan running, even not too fast.
Since I recently got one of those touch free thermometer guns, I’ll try to remember to take some readings above the insert this weeked when I have a pretty good fire going.
The people I talk to at work who have stoves in the basement to heat the house all have it really hot down there. Bear in mind your basement is only 500ft2 and I keep my downstairs (1000ft2) pretty toasty with the 2700i.
I used to have a Quad 2100i which they don’t make anymore but it looks like the 3100i and it extended out on the hearth a little-I didn’t have a fan on it and the mantle got pretty hot and I had it more than the minimum above it for sure.
Here is what my install looks like.

Thanks for the pic velvetfoot. I'm getting more confused by the minute. The reason is I looked at more stoves today. The 2700i so that it will be flush requires a fireplace deeper than I have. The 3000i depth is 14.125 in and it would just fit. The fire place is deep but it shallows quickly above 20 inches. But the insert that looked like it would fit best, from the drawing anyway, is the Hearthstone Clydesdale. It can fit as shallow as 13.375 but my wife's thoughts of flush mounting are out. My concern is getting cooked out of this room. It would be a giant stove loping along. Will it get hot enough to reburn? Is a stove with so much heat capacity a bad idea for such a small room?

 

[robmints]

Thanks all, I really appreciate your helpful, thoughtful replies, I think it helped. Picking up a Clydesdale in the morning. I have the liner in, hope Santa can still fit down. Need to put the rain cap and stick down the top block off. My plan is to stuff insulation around the liner right as it goes into the flue liner at the bottom rather than put a bottom block off plate, is that OK?

Anyway, thanks again, I'll let you know how it works out.

 

[begreen]

My plan is to stuff insulation around the liner right as it goes into the flue liner at the bottom rather than put a bottom block off plate, is that OK?

No, particularly if you are thinking about using fiberglass. Take the time to do this right, it will be a permanent installation. A proper block off plate is not that big a deal.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks all, I really appreciate your helpful, thoughtful replies, I think it helped. Picking up a Clydesdale in the morning. I have the liner in, hope Santa can still fit down. Need to put the rain cap and stick down the top block off. My plan is to stuff insulation around the liner right as it goes into the flue liner at the bottom rather than put a bottom block off plate, is that OK?

Anyway, thanks again, I'll let you know how it works out.

Agreed, make a proper blockoff plate, it is a MAJOR part of getting good performance, and some folks say it is important for safety. Make a proper sheetmetal blockoff, insulation is NOT an acceptable substitute as it will not stay in place properly, and will not block airflow, which is what a blockoff is for. Also fiberglass should not be used in that area, as the paper facing on some fiberglass is a combustible, and the fiber glass itself is not able to withstand high temps, it is only good to about 600*F before it starts to melt. It is not a bad idea to stuff ROCK WOOL or Mineral wool insulation above the block-off plate. If you have an interior chimney, and didn't insulate the liner, it also isn't a bad idea to stuff insulation down into the space around the top of the liner to fill the part of the chimney that sticks up above the roof - this can help to reduce creosote buildup in the top of the chimney and cap.

As to Santa, he doesn't seem to have much trouble getting down the liners, but you need to stay up on Xmas eve so you can let him out when he starts clawing at the inside of the stove window.... ;-P

Gooserider

 

[robmints]

Thanks all. Doing it correctly can take some time, had an issue or two. The only thing I'm not done is the mantle/deflector. But even then I think I'm leaving the fan, it's blowing toward the door anyway. It was just the break in burn but all seemed to go just fine.

Thanks all again, mucho appreciated.

 

[Mike Wilson]

No joke here... that TV will die sooner once you start burning the insert in that fireplace. Two things will kill it, the heat from the insert (and the inability of the TV set to dissipate the heat it generates due to hot air rising from beneath it), and the dust. Seriously, move the TV... or at least raise it.

-- Mike

 

[velvetfoot]

With my installation and 900 F glass, I read only 5F over room temperature in the area under my mantle with the fan blowing.
I am amazed it was so low.