Inefficient insulation, or inefficient floor plan? HELP!

[thephotohound]

OK... just got through my first season with my new (broken link removed). To be quite honest, for the 45,000 BTU output, I am quite dissappointed. However, I am 99% sure it has nothing to do with the stove...

We consistently had surface temps between 400-450 all year long. I was burning red oak with a 20-25% moisture content (used 4 prong moisture meter to test). My house was built in 1975, and all windows are original double pane Anderson casements and sliders. I have 12' cathedral ceilings in the great room that the stove is located in. For a better visual, I have attached (broken link removed) of the first floor of my house.

This is the first floor of my split-level... 1,000 SF per level. We have a fully finished basement, but we chose to put the stove on the upper level, because we enjoy looking at the fire almost as much as we enjoy the warmth. However, after this season, we are strongly thinking about moving it downstairs. We have a family room down there, but it does not get as much use as the Great Room upstairs. I should also mention that the stairway to the lower level is completely open, and we keep the thermostat at 55 degrees when we're not down there.

As for the windows, I could feel a draft from the slider and the bay window. I sealed them as best I could, but the cold was still radiating through the panes. Also, we live 800 ft above sea level, and the constant winter wind has to be 15-30 MPH almost consistently. On days where there is no wind, the room temp jumps by 8-10 degrees. We have installed two 52 inch ceiling fans in the Great Room (remember, 12' ceilings), but it seems like all they do is bring up the cold air from downstairs. We have R-13 insulation in all walls.

I have thought of my options: close of the downstairs, replace the slider and windows, re-insulate the ceiling as best I can to R-35-40 (it's R-20 now), or move the stove to the lower level and cut registers in the floor. Although I can't quite center the chimney, I can get it closer to the center of the house on an outside wall.

I would GREATLY appreciate and and all feedback on my situation. I know this stove is capable of heating the whole house, but I just don't know what my next move should be. As with everyone, finances are tight, so I need an economical but long-lasting fix. THANK YOU

 

[babalu87]

Depending on where you live the stove may not be big enough for starters. How many sq feet is the house, then you need to factor in the cathedral ceilings those steal much heat.
The stove is in a bad spot but you can assist that with some well placed fans, if you move the stove in the basement you wont get near the heat upstairs that you may think, basements eat heat.

I put two fans as the drawing shows and the house heats more evenly especially in cold, windy weather.

 

[thephotohound]

I do have a (broken link removed to http://www.caframo.com/ecofans.htm) that we keep on the stove to circulate heat, which seems to help, but I know what you mean about air circulation. The house is 1000 SF per floor. We live in Central MA. Re: the basement theory; even if I cut enough registers + the open stairway won't be enough?

 

[Highbeam]

That stove is rated by woodstock to heat 1300 SF. That usually assumes 8 foot ceilings so the volume of air to heat in a room with 12 foot high ceilings will be higher.

Even though woodstock claims 45000 btus which is respectable, I believe the stove is too small. You have guys on this site with similar homes and PE stoves kicking out 90,000 btus.

Must you run it at the cool 400-450 temp? I suspect that the 45k btu rating is at max temp.

 

[tradergordo]

What he said. Woodstock says it heats 1300 sq ft, and you are trying to heat 2000 sq. ft. with it, that is the problem.

As for vaulted ceilings - they can actually be very useful when heating with wood IF that rising hot air actually goes someplace useful (like the bedrooms upstairs). I think that is the ideal home design for heating two floors of a house with one central stove.

 

[babalu87]

I do have a (broken link removed to http://www.caframo.com/ecofans.htm) that we keep on the stove to circulate heat, which seems to help, but I know what you mean about air circulation. The house is 1000 SF per floor. We live in Central MA. Re: the basement theory; even if I cut enough registers + the open stairway won't be enough?

More important than moving the warm air is to bring the cold air to the heat source, then natural circulation can take over.

So you have a 2000 sq foot house?
That stove will heat half of your house. You need a stove at least 2000 sq foot and if you are putting it in the basement you will need a 3000 sq foot stove minimum.

My stove would be perfect for your house, it is just a little too big for our house.

 

[thephotohound]

I am very new at this, so please pardon my inexperience....

I couldn't get the temp over 475 all year, no matter how hard I tried. I followed the directions EXACTLY but maxed out at 475. I know from reading the Woodstock site that the stoves easily reach 600 degrees, but I couldn't do it for the life of me. I am assuming it was due to the wood I used. Last year, I didn't have time to split my own wood (purchased in September), so I bough the wood from someone who felled the trees 12 months earlier, but was splitting the 16" rounds as I was pulling up. He said it would be fine, but I swore I was getting wet wood. I guess that's another story, but I guess that could that have been a contributing factor as well.

Also, if I am understanding this correctly, I'm wasting my time moving the stove to the basement. I think it may make more sense to add a pellet stove in the basement, that way we can heat only when we need it, i.e. only when we're using the basement...

To add another dimension (literally), we're adding on in a few years and going up (2 bedrooms). Then, I would assume, if the stove is on the first level (soon to be the middle level), then the wood stove on the middle level and a pellet stove on the lower level is the best route.

 

[babalu87]

Need chimney specs (length etc)

If you couldnt get the stove over 475 and they say you can run it at 600 it is more than likely the wood. When you tested the wood was it freshly split? That is a must to get a proper reading on cordwood. No matter if you can get it to 600 or not the stove is only capable of heating around 1300 sq feet and that is following newer codes as far as insulation, windows etc.

 

[thephotohound]

Chimney specs: Out of the back of the stove, single elbow, straight up... interior pipe is single wall, approx. 7 ft to cathedral ceiling. Out of roof, add'l 10 ft or so metalbestos stainless.

Re: the wood.... yes, the wood was freshly split (as I was standing there to pick it up he was splitting it!) However, he assured me that the trees came down over a year ago. The moisture reading at that time was 35-40%, but was down to about 30% by the time I started burning the wood a month later.

 

[Highbeam]

Yeah, that's wet. I even consider 20% to be too wet based on experience with wood in the 15% range. I only use the HF meter though so it might not be too accurate. 35-40% is what I would expect from a green tree.

 

[tradergordo]

The moisture reading at that time was 35-40%, but was down to about 30% by the time I started burning the wood a month later.

30% is not good. And even then sometimes moisture meters read lower than reality.

 

[titan]

Photohound-you need a bigger stove and drier wood for sure. I've spent(wasted) too much time over the years fighting with wet wood in inefficient, or undersized stoves.This year I swapped out a 30000 btu stove for a 72000btu unit and I can hear next winter's wood drying as I type.Woodburning is only as difficult as you make it.Oh-if you ever need someone to take that Keystone out of your way, I'll haul it away NO CHARGE %-P

 

[thephotohound]

Titan -

I certainly appreciate the offer. Tell you what, if I ever consider getting rid of it, you'll be the first one I call.

We bought this stove for the characteristics of the soapstone as well as the heating power, so it's important the we max out both of those. I think after reading these posts, three things are jumping out at me:

1. I need to insulate that ceiling to R-38 (current building code)
2. I need to weather proof the leaky windows and doors even more than I already have (if that's possible)
3. I need to split and stack NOW to get the wood below 20% moisture for the fall, so I can achieve the 500-600 degree burn temps

Unfortunately, I don't think trading the stove in is an option, and I'm certainly not running 2 wood stoves!! I think I'll most likely keep the wood stove where it is and install a pellet stove (?) down stairs and use it just when we're down there.

Did I mention I went through 4 cord this winter in central MA?!

 

[Rhone]

I think you may be under sized, but I think the biggest player is the wind. Wind is a triple-edged sword if there's such a thing. That is, as it blows it puts positive pressure on one side of your house trying to push the cold air in. On the opposite side you have a negative pressure or vacuum, which is trying to pull air out. The 3rd problem with the wind, any air flow through insulation greatly reduces its effective R-Value. So, not only do you have cold air pushing into your house on one side, being pulled out on the other, you're insulation isn't working as effective either when that whole process is going on. My house, on a still night if I load up when the house is 73F by morning it'll cool to usually 68F. When it's windy, it goes from 73F to 62-63F by morning. What I'd do is walk around on a windy night with some burning incense and find the air leaks. Seal them up, they can be in surprising places. That bang for buck is going to be the best. I have a program that calculates insulation and its effects depending where people live. If the R20 in your attic is blown cellulose moving to R38 blown will save you 0.21 cords/year in central mass per 1000 sq ft ceiling area. If it's R20 fiberglass (which in most cases acts more like R13 because it's almost impossible to get it to work as rated) adding R18 worth of blown cellulose (which should also correct any difficiencies in the fiberglass batt installation) will save you 0.45/cords per 1000 sq ft ceiling area. Just a warning from experience, insulating more usually just means you burn the same amount of wood but enjoy warmer winter temperatures. Casements are the most efficient type of window (next to a picture), they have a gasket that when the window is closed almost makes them air tight. Double-hungs usually have either a strip of aluminum or felt to try to prevent air leaks, certainly not as good particularly as they age. The casements are a very good thing where you live. These windows don't have aluminum frames do they?

4 cords isn't that bad, I went through 4 cords last year in a 1300 sq ft house and kept it around 68-70F. Since last year I've done a lot to improve my house including insulated my attic from R13 to R45 and insulated the walk-out wall of my basement, and going around constantly sealing air leaks and this year I cut it down to 3 cords (but it was real mild). My program says I should've reduced my wood use by 50% but, instead of keeping the house at 68-70F I kept it 72-74F and often lit fires when I really didn't need to just because I didn't feel guilty after improving my house.

 

[thephotohound]

Rhonemas - Great post. Thank you so much. It's all fiberglass insulation... no cellulose. And all the casements are wood frame. I guess it sounds like (in addition to properly seasoning my wood) I need to seal up every leak I can find. It also sounds like I need to get up into that attic and throw down some more insulation. Do you concur that placing this stove (45K BTU) in the basement is a waste of time?

Thank you all for your very helpful posts!

 

[jtp10181]

If you are going to burn hardwoods you need to split and stack wood NOW for burning in the fall of 2008. For next season you should maybe purchase wood that has been split since last year. In general hard woods take about 2 years to fully season.

 

[begreen]

Titan -

I certainly appreciate the offer. Tell you what, if I ever consider getting rid of it, you'll be the first one I call.

We bought this stove for the characteristics of the soapstone as well as the heating power, so it's important the we max out both of those. I think after reading these posts, three things are jumping out at me:

1. I need to insulate that ceiling to R-38 (current building code)
2. I need to weather proof the leaky windows and doors even more than I already have (if that's possible)
3. I need to split and stack NOW to get the wood below 20% moisture for the fall, so I can achieve the 500-600 degree burn temps

Unfortunately, I don't think trading the stove in is an option, and I'm certainly not running 2 wood stoves!! I think I'll most likely keep the wood stove where it is and install a pellet stove (?) down stairs and use it just when we're down there.

Did I mention I went through 4 cord this winter in central MA?!

Welcome PH. All very good plans. You may be able to do ok with your current stove by making these changes. The pellet stove for the basement sounds like an ok idea for a room heater, though it will be a little pricey. Do you have natural gas available? That might be an alternative. To your list I'd add - #4 Have that chimney checked for creosote build up. High moisture wood will burn cooler and condense quicker in the stack. Be sure to schedule a cleaning and by all means, get dry split wood now.

 

[RonB]

Greetings Photohound,
Here are some of the main things I heard you say that are major challenges to any type of heat plant--Cathedral ceilings, wall of glass, near constant 25-30 mph wind. Now add in: likely less than ideal wood dryness and marginal stove size for your application. Things probably won't ever get any worse! Stated more positvely; anything you do to address any of the above challenges will give you more heat. Moving your stove to the basement with the same conditions will make it colder upstairs. However, I am not dead set against heating from the lower level because that's how I heat my house (big stove and the right house for this setup). It sounds like you are intent on making do with the stove you have, and that is possible if you follow through with all the suggestions. But then what you gonna do when you add on to your house? You might as well buy a bigger stove now. Put the current one in the basement. If that is too much trouble sell it and recoup part of the expense for the bigger stove. As an important side note, it would be profitable for you to plant a screen of evergreen trees, shrubs (in an ascetic fashion) to break the constant wind that is super cooling your house. A properly landscaped home can reduce heating and cooling needs of a house significantly.

 

[thephotohound]

These are all excellent suggestions. I appreciate every piece of feedback.

Regarding the stove size: we went over this with the company, Woodstock Soapstone Co., and discussed stove size and house size EXTENSIVELY. We were assured by everyone from the salesman to CEO that the 1,300 SF rating was very conservative. Now, I understand that it's harder to under/overstate BTU rating, but they assured me that this stove could heat my home. They have a 6 month money back guarantee, and I'm sure that if I was adamant, I could get a full refund, but I don't know if I'm ready to do that yet. We chose the stove for the soapstone qualities (5x heat retainage as compared to cast iron, natural beauty of the material) as well as the heating qualities. If I had to do it all over again, I'd still choose Woodstock, I'd probably just get the (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stove_fireview.html) instead.

Is it officially a consensus that I got a raw deal with the wood I bought last year? That probably explains why I kept getting a hard-to-remove black film on the inside of the glass too?? If I use wood from trees that were felled and cut into rounds 12 mos ago, and they have 6 months+ to dry, won't I be OK?

Re: insulation issues: I will pack that house as full as it will go with insulation, and I have already started planting trees.

Ron - Are you suggesting 2 wood stoves?? Isn't that going to be tremendous work to keep 2 going? Does it really make sense?

BTW, no natural gas around here, but I've been looking at propane for awhile now. I'd like to cook on it, but it's around $2/gallon here. I might as well run oil through my furnace.

Now the big basement question... I think I'm going to do everything everyone suggested for this season, and see what kind of difference I get. I know that now is the time to switch stoves, though...........

 

[elkimmeg]

first area of attention is insulating and draft stopping this could be an issue ina finished basement the sillplate to foundation connection is one of the worst draft leakage areas.
Second in the unfinished part r19 insulation should be in your cellar ceiling floor joist cavities. Every exposed hot water pipe should be insulated including hot water heating runs.
I even recomed insulating the cold water pipes it reduces condensation sweating. If you have forced hot air then all ducts mmshould be sealed mastic and insulated above R 5,0

Might as well increase the effeciency of transmission for your existing setup.

You have to get your wood stacked off the ground in a sunny location and get it seasoned. When factoring in a stove use 2/3 of the claimed heating capacity it is very time consuming to opperate it at peak out put You burn wood faster and need to load more often and regulate the air to keep peak preformance It is a lot easier to run a stove 80% that try to achieve 100%

Everbody here states you need more heating capacity out of your stove due to the home make up and cathedral ceilings you have much more vollume to heat that the standard 7.6" ceilings

There are two approaches to take one get a larger stove or be satisfied with yours opperate it as well as you can with dryer wood. And your are still winning your burner does not cycle as often and longer periods of time between cycles you are using less fuel and still winning

I will tell you cutting holes in the floor is not the safest or smartest idea I heard of for every supply hole a return hole is needed. Ceiling and floors are natural fire containment structures
Contailment buys valuable time for safe exit in time when seconds count. No way would I ever risk or expose my home and familly to reducing safe exit time. Many have tried this practice
and most have not benifited from much heat gain to the next level all they accomplished was exposure to greater safety risk

Besides I did not get into the code violations of this practice. I know people still do it . Everbody thinks in terms of moving warm air but theKey is moving the cooler air to make room for the warn air to occupy that space.

 

[thephotohound]

elkimmeg -

I have a forced hot water by oil heating system - baseboard.

Second, I should probably explain my house a little better:

1st floor (basement) - Even though we call it the basement, it functions as the first floor. At the front of the house, this level is 1/2 underground (like a split). It contains a family/entertainment room, full bath, office, and darkroom. At the rear, it's 100% above ground. For all intense and purposes, it's completely finished space. Once I'm finished renovating it, the usage on this level will be approximately 40% (as compared to 60% upstairs). 1000 SF. Open stairway leading to updtairs. There is no insulation in the ceiling because it is considered fully finished space and will be used as such. Would you still consider insulating? When we're not using it, we plan on keeping the temp at 60. BTW, does the open stairway act as a return for the cold air (opposite side of the room from the stove) or should we perhaps cut in a small vent near the stove as well?

2nd floor - Contains kitchen, great room, dining room, full bath, laundry, foyer. This is the floor that the stove is currently on. Here's the (broken link removed to http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/2/9/7/3/0/2/webimg/44885681_o.jpg) again. 1000 SF

3rd floor (yet to be constructed) - will house 3 new bedrooms. 500 SF

Open floor plan throughout.

I hope this helps in explaining it.

 

[carpniels]

Hi photo,

A third floor? Wow, you indeed have a large house.

To sum it up, I have to agree with all others. Here is the list:
- Insulate ceiling and all drafts (fastest return on investment).
- Drier wood (buy or cut and split it now, let it dry all summer, which should be no problem with all that wind you have). Your 4 full cords you burnt last winter, will give a ton more heat once dry.
- larger stove (yes, you will need one, especially with the 3rd floor). Get your money back and get the fireview, if you like soapstone stoves. It is necessary because of the sq. ft. but also because of your constant wind issue. That eats heat so IMO you actually need a stove larger than the sq. ft. of your house. Personally, I went from small to mid to large size woodstove, just to produce the heat I need.

I did all the above in the last 5 years learning the details of woodburning and I must say it has made a tremedous difference.

Good luck

carpniels

 

[thephotohound]

Well, this has been a lot of good advice, for sure. Keep it coming!! I have taken some time to look at alternative stoves, but to be completely honest, the only way I might go is to the Woodstock Fireview. However, I introduced this idea to the salesman before we bought it, and he swore that the additional 10,000 BTU's would not make a monumental difference in heating my home. He had nothing to gain by telling me that... in fact, the Keystone costs LESS than the Fireview. I have to believe that with their experience and R&D Dept., the info is accurate. If that's the case, the 1,300 SF rating on the Keystone is just what I need, AS LONG AS I do the following:

1. Insulate, Insulate, Insulate
2. Seal all drafts
3. Insulate
4. Make sure my wood is good and dry
5. Did I say insulate?

As for the basement, I'm just going to look at a separate heat source, probably a pellet stove, to heat that area when we're down there. My reasoning is twofold: no matter how many registers I cut, if we're expecting heat to the upper floor(s), we'll be baking in the basemment. Also, most of my time will be on the upper floor(s). Furthermore, with correct circulation and air flow, I have read that I can actually move warm air downstairs... does anyone have any experience with that??

I assume that by next Christmas, I will be reporting a much warmer house to all of you. Please continue posting with any other helpful advice and/or experience. I am still a very GREEN newbie!

 

[jjbaer]

elkimmeg -

I have a forced hot water by oil heating system - baseboard.

Second, I should probably explain my house a little better:

1st floor (basement) - Even though we call it the basement, it functions as the first floor. At the front of the house, this level is 1/2 underground (like a split). It contains a family/entertainment room, full bath, office, and darkroom. At the rear, it's 100% above ground. For all intense and purposes, it's completely finished space. Once I'm finished renovating it, the usage on this level will be approximately 40% (as compared to 60% upstairs). 1000 SF. Open stairway leading to updtairs. There is no insulation in the ceiling because it is considered fully finished space and will be used as such. Would you still consider insulating? When we're not using it, we plan on keeping the temp at 60. BTW, does the open stairway act as a return for the cold air (opposite side of the room from the stove) or should we perhaps cut in a small vent near the stove as well?

2nd floor - Contains kitchen, great room, dining room, full bath, laundry, foyer. This is the floor that the stove is currently on. Here's the (broken link removed to http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/2/9/7/3/0/2/webimg/44885681_o.jpg) again. 1000 SF

3rd floor (yet to be constructed) - will house 3 new bedrooms. 500 SF

Open floor plan throughout.

I hope this helps in explaining it.

Hello,

there's another thing to consider here and that is what was you last yearly heating bill when you didn't have a stove and what did you heat with? What I'm after here is to compute the number of BTU's/hr you use during say, Dec and when you DIDN'T use any wood and were instead heating with just baseboard heat? This will tell you the average BTU's your stove needs to output to take the place of the normal heating mode in your house. Also, remember that on average, a 45,000 BTU stove only puts out about 25,000 BTU/hr. When you do this you may find out two things: 1) the current stove is too small which means you need to either buy a bigger stove or buy a second stove (a second stove may be necessary if you cannot distribute the heat from a single stove throughout the house) or 2) your current stove provides the required BTU's but since the house is cold it means it's still a distribution problem in which case you also need a second stove.

As a comparison, I have a 1650 sq ft ranch with low ceilings and good insulation and I use about 17,000 BTU/hr here in Ohio in Dec (17,000 is what is consumed at the burner head and actual heat to the house is probably only 14,000 BTU after furnace inefficiency and duct losses). My guess is that with your larger house, higher ceilings, 2-occupied stories (and a 3rd one later) and poor insulation, that your BTU consumption now is well over 25,000 BTU/hr and will be about 30,000 BTU/hr when you do the 3rd story. Combine this with your 3 levels and inability to distribute heat through a duct system and I'm guessing that: 1) your current stove is too small AND 2) you couldn't distribute heat to all floors even if you had a larger single stove which indicates you may need a second stove.......but first do the calculation.

 

[thephotohound]

Great post... However, I'm afraid the calculation might be tough, because I get my hot water off the furnace, as well. But with that said, total oil consumption without the stove was around 1,100 gallons per year. At 139,000 BTU/gallon at 75% efficiency is 115 million BTU per year of needed energy. Over a 3,500 hour heating season (20 weeks), that's almost 33,000 BTU needed per hour, for both heat and hot water. So I can be pretty sure that I need around 30,000 BTU per hour for just heat. My current stove is 45,000 BTU, minus the loss you spoke of, I'm in the ballpark. However, once I put the extra bedrooms upstairs, I'll need more.

Therefore, I guess I need to look at a larger stove, say 55,000-60,000 BTU, or a second stove. But there's my question again: is all of the extra work worth it to fire a second stove??