Installing solid flue liner, and vermiculite

[Levi2u]

I'm in the process of installing my new morso 2110,
and installing a liner. since I have found a local supplier that fabricates solid stainless flue pipe, and the price is reasonable (15.00 a foot in 3ft sections) I think it will be the most durable, and easiest to maintain product I can use.
I spent about 15 minutes in the shop discussing my needs with the guy that actually does the fabrication, and ask him about my insulation choices.
of course they have the ceramic blanket that you wrap around, but he recommended Vermiculite which they sell in 4 cu ft bags for 25.00 .
He says it need to be mixed with a small portion of portland cement, and then poured down around the liner (flue opening obviously blocked off already)
Once it's finished I can't imagine a better more permanent installation. I did a forum search for "vermiculite" and nothing came up. maybe I just don't understand the forum search feature, but surely this topic must have been discussed here?
anyway does anyone have any personal experience wth this?
it will be a 6in. stainless liner in a 11in. I.D. clay tile flue.
Thanks for your help, Levi

 

[daryl]

The only time I use vermiculite insulation is when we break out the tiles to make room for liner.If it is a fireplace chimney I would wrap it. The reason being is that you want to be able to move that liner for stove repairs or such.On a chimney that does not have a fireplace Vermiculite is the way to go.

 

[Hogwildz]

Is the local fab shop's pipe UL approved for the application you plan to use it for?
Does it meet code temps etc? Might want to be sure.

 

[daryl]

Is the local fab shop's pipe UL approved for the application you plan to use it for?
Does it meet code temps etc? Might want to be sure.

Good point.As a dealer we would always use a UL approved system.

 

[stejus]

I had vermiculite poured down after the liner went in. My sweep told me the liner with the wrap would not have fit, so he went with poured in approach. He basically watered down the stuff to make it like wet kitty little and poured it from the top of the chimney. He blocked off the last flue tile with insulation to keep the vermiculite from falling through.

 

[branchburner]

Try searching "perlite" instead of "vermiculite" - many people use the terms interchangably, but perlite absorbs less water and is what you want (and usually what you get at a masonry supply house, even if they call it vermiculite or zonolite).

I did something similar to Stejus, but poured it in loose/dry. I had the wet/cement stuff only near the bottom - to keep the loose perlite from finding its way through the blockoff (that can be a nightmare, apparently). I did not want the slurry the whole length of the liner in case I (or a future owner) wanted to reclaim the original flue without busting all that stuff out.

I cannot say for sure if that is an approved application for my liner (as a hybrid technique, my guess is no).

 

[Wet1]

I've been considering doing the same thing branchburner did since I have a tight fit. If I had an 11" flue, I'd just wrap the 6" liner and call it a day. Cheaper, easier, and less permanent. It would take a LOT of vermiculite to fill your void ($$$).

 

[branchburner]

The wrap is easier, cleaner, and more code-compliant... but the perlite is cheaper. I think I paid less than $15 for a 4 cu ft bag. Pretty easy to ballpark the volume you need.

 

[Wet1]

Good info, thanks branch. I didn't know there was a difference between vermiculite and perlite, nor did I realize perlite was significantly cheaper. I just did a search and you're 100% correct. I crunched the numbers for my chimney and it looks like I need about 32 cu ft of insulation, so even at 15 a bag for the perlite, that's still only $120.

I was reading it expands considerably when heated... is this an issue?

 

[Levi2u]

I know we live in a society full of bureauocrats, and certainly common sense is not always common....
But isn't burning wood to keep your family warm in the winter a kind of basic survival skill?
Aren't you really trying to maintain a little bit of independance from the "system" ?
Of course I'm rather new to this forum, but I seeacommon thread in many of the replys I read in reply to my questions, and those of
others. and it goes like this "are you sure that meets code?" "is it approved for that application" Well as I see it there really are no 2 exact applications, and just because it may meet code, and be approved does not nessisarilly mean it is safe for me, and just because some testing agency hasn't tested a particular product in a particular application doesn't mean it won't be safe and effective, or even the best possible solution for a given situation.
I'm very appreciative for all the advice I read, and receive here on this site. It's just become my manifesto in life to be self reliant when possible, because in the end I'm the one who will benifit or suffer from my decisions.I'm only 50 years old, so I'm sure I still haave a lot left to learn, but up to this point my philosopy has served me well.
When I was a young child in the late 50's, and early 60's my extended family was running sawmills in rural Missouri, and Colorado, We lived in tar paper shacks made from rough cut boards of whatever kind of timber we were cutting at the time. Hauled our water from a spring in those big milk canisters they used to use, and had outhouses.
Want to take a guess on what kind of stove we used to keep warm? they were the oval blue sheet metal stoves that cost 20$, and weighed about 10 lbs. They werent' hot untill they were glowing red around the bottom, but boy did they give off the heat. When you added wood you didn't waste any time, you slid open the hole in the top, and chucked in the wood.
Of course they don't sell them any more, and probably for good reason, but they kept us from freezing to death in the middle of a Colorado winter. If you've ever really had to survive by your own wit's I think it gives you different outlook on life, and makes you a little wary of someone else telling you what is for your own best good.
Sorry for the rant, I mean no offence, It just had to be said.
I did spend quite a bit of time researching Vermiculite, and any potential health risks before choosing it. There was a mine in Libby Montana which operated from the 1920's untill 1990 that had an asbestos contamination problem in their vermiculite, but all current sources have been tested to be asbestos free, and safe. See, I don 't always throw caution to the wind.
thanks for your help, and a chance to rant.

Levi

 

[branchburner]

I was reading it expands considerably when heated... is this an issue?

I believe that expansion happens in the processing of the raw material. It's like popcorn - what you're getting and using is already popped. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is virtually zero expansion of the finished product (other than the same expansion and contraction you'd get with other rock/mineral/masonry materials).

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I know we live in a society full of bureauocrats, and certainly common sense is not always common....
But isn't burning wood to keep your family warm in the winter a kind of basic survival skill?
Aren't you really trying to maintain a little bit of independance from the "system" ?
Of course I'm rather new to this forum, but I seeacommon thread in many of the replys I read in reply to my questions, and those of
others. and it goes like this "are you sure that meets code?" "is it approved for that application" Well as I see it there really are no 2 exact applications, and just because it may meet code, and be approved does not nessisarilly mean it is safe for me, and just because some testing agency hasn't tested a particular product in a particular application doesn't mean it won't be safe and effective, or even the best possible solution for a given situation.
I'm very appreciative for all the advice I read, and receive here on this site. It's just become my manifesto in life to be self reliant when possible, because in the end I'm the one who will benifit or suffer from my decisions.I'm only 50 years old, so I'm sure I still haave a lot left to learn, but up to this point my philosopy has served me well.
When I was a young child in the late 50's, and early 60's my extended family was running sawmills in rural Missouri, and Colorado, We lived in tar paper shacks made from rough cut boards of whatever kind of timber we were cutting at the time. Hauled our water from a spring in those big milk canisters they used to use, and had outhouses.
Want to take a guess on what kind of stove we used to keep warm? they were the oval blue sheet metal stoves that cost 20$, and weighed about 10 lbs. They werent' hot untill they were glowing red around the bottom, but boy did they give off the heat. When you added wood you didn't waste any time, you slid open the hole in the top, and chucked in the wood.
Of course they don't sell them any more, and probably for good reason, but they kept us from freezing to death in the middle of a Colorado winter. If you've ever really had to survive by your own wit's I think it gives you different outlook on life, and makes you a little wary of someone else telling you what is for your own best good.
Sorry for the rant, I mean no offence, It just had to be said.
I did spend quite a bit of time researching Vermiculite, and any potential health risks before choosing it. There was a mine in Libby Montana which operated from the 1920's untill 1990 that had an asbestos contamination problem in their vermiculite, but all current sources have been tested to be asbestos free, and safe. See, I don 't always throw caution to the wind.
thanks for your help, and a chance to rant.

Levi

Levi, i hear what you are saying, but this is a community of hearth professionals, homeowners that are more professional then some of the hearth people i have met, and people that come, ask there questions, and go. We always try to advise the most code compliant, safe installation as possible. Peoples home, family's and lives are at stake. The codes might be written by bureaucrat's, but the codes that govern our industry make sense. Countless homes burn down every year do to chimney fires. Almost all of them could have been prevented. Just because it was good in the 50's and 60's does not mean its good today. If you burnt a tar paper shack down with no one in it.. o well. If you burn down your home that is paid for and is your retirement. Bad. Insurance companies will not pay if its due to the improper installation of a solid or gas burning appliance. People tell you what to do because the people doing the telling are educated and informed on the proper ways to install something and not put your house and family in danger. If every one knew how to do it properly there would not be this forum. And this forum would be garbage if every one said "sure! you can do that. give it a try and let us know!"
Done with my rant. good luck to you and your installation!

 

[firefighterjake]

Two excellent posts by Levi and MSG . . .

Random thoughts . . .

I agree with Levi in the fact that just because something isn't to code doesn't make it unsafe . . . but . . . and this is a big but . . . the codes (at least NFPA codes which govern woodstove installs and chimneys) are created through a consensus based system meaning that any NFPA member who has paid their dues is allowed to vote or comment on the codes, suggest changes, etc. and then the issue is brought for by Committee and voted on by the membership . . . which means folks from a wide variety of backgrounds and experience are allowed to make suggestions, comments, etc. . . . not just bureacrats . . . folks in the industry, fire engineers, firefighters, etc. all have a stake in the code.

The good: A wide variety of opinions and suggestions is offered vs. one single opinion from one sub-set (i.e. if the code were created only by folks who make woodstoves . . . or only firefighters . . . or only engineers . . . or . . . well you get the idea.

The bad: New ideas or tech may sometimes not be passed through as quickly as they could as the process errs on the side of caution and carefully weighs over changes and the implications those changes may have before the code is changed, new tech is adopted, etc. For this reason, sometimes something new (whether a new way of doing something or a new product) may take awhile before it is allowed by code -- as stated before, just because something isn't in the code doesn't automatically mean it's bad.

That said, many of the codes are created as a direct result of past experiences by professionals -- folks have seen a problem and attempted to address the issue with a code change. For example, I have no doubt that fire professionals way back realized that over time wood set right next to a chimney could become very dry and eventually the ignition temp could be lowered causing the wood frame to catch on fire at a much lower temp than normal which resulted in the spacing requirement for chimneys. In the same way, the reason we have codes for panic hardware on doors, a set number of doors on nightclubs and movie theatres, fire drills in schools, etc. is due to some past fire (or fires) where folks were hurt or died.

While I recognize that some folks may abuse the power that comes with enforcing codes, I think the vast majority recognize that the codes came about from an experience in the past and in fact that they are among the best and safest practices as agreed upon by a majority. Again, it doesn't mean that there isn't a better or at least another alternative to doing something . . . it just means that the experts believe this is a good practice . . . hence the code.

Another thing that bears mentioning (for better or worse) is that the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) does have the option in some codes to exercise his or her own judgment and use their experience or knowledge to come up with alternatives to what is presented in the code . . . something our Fire Inspector uses . . . on occasion . . . when alternatives are needed. Going away from the codes however can present some pitfalls of course, but occasionally our Inspector attempts to use common sense to solve issues that don't fit neatly into what the code offers for solutions.

Since it was mentioned . . . in the 1960s the US had about 12,000 fire fatalities each year (a good number of them being home heating fires) . . . today that number is down to about 3,000 or so each year . . . I'm not so naive to think it's just codes (smoke detectors, public education and awareness, better products, etc. have helped to be sure) . . . but codes certainly have played a part as well.

 

[Levi2u]

Point taken.
I don't think we would have seen the level of inovation that occurred during the industrial revolution if people had not done a lot of trial and error experimentation. of course I'm sure safety was not always their number one concern, and we benifit from what I'm sure were alot of fatalities.
I guess there is a fine line between holding to a an existing code, or allowing innovation which will allow future advances.
I got the damper assy. out today, and it's big enough inside that I (5'6") can stand up inside of it. from the floor of the fireplace to the first clay flue tile is 6'3", and 19 feet from there to the top of the chimney. I may decide to use solid stainless, and vermiculite only down to where the flue tile ends, and then choose a different option to bring it the additional 4.5 feet to the stove. there is about an 8 inch offset.
Levi

 

[branchburner]

My view on codes (even though I don't always follow them) is that they are there for the pros to make, and break, as they see best. There's a reason for my James Madison quote below, and it's there to remind me I can be a moron if I don't think things through. Doing it my way hasn't always worked out. As a novice, my common sense is just that: common, ordinary, and lacking professional experience. As such, it would be very easy for me to overlook something that would be known to a seasoned pro. We all learn (and codes are made) by either making mistakes or observing others make them. And even if you use codes just as a guide and a jumping off point to proceed, you might want to make sure your building inspector and insurance agent are jumping off with you. Safety first, money later...

 

[firefighterjake]

One thing that our Fire Inspector often says is that many of the codes are offered as what one must do to be safe as a minimum . . . since the codes are created through a consensus sometimes there is some give and take . . . which means that while the codes are useful and manufacturing specs are important there is nothing to say that one cannot go beyond the codes and build in a little extra measure of safety (i.e. building a hearth with more R value than required, extending the hearth more than the minimum, putting in carbon monoxide detectors when none are required, etc.) . . . as he says, the code is like a plain cheese pizza . . . it's good . . . but who wants a plain cheese pizza when they get a pepperoni pizza or a Hawaiian pizza or a loaded pizza?

 

[beulahv]

I'm remodling my house and want to put in a wood stove. Doesn't your friend know about wood stoves? He could get it done cheap for me couldn't he?

See https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/40656/

Though many have good common sense, some need to be protected from themselves and learning by trial and error.

 

[BrotherBart]

I sure wouldn't want to buy a house that wasn't inspected for code compliance. Even if I was there when it was being built I wouldn't know if they were doing it right or if it was going to fall on my head after I moved in. Or the electrical system would turn me into a crispy critter in my sleep some night.

 

[TreePapa]

Building and installing to code also makes it a lot easier to collect on a homeowner's insurance claim, should that be necessary, and not to have one's policy cancelled for non-complaint building. Not to mention that if one ever sells the home, the buyer's inspector, and the mortgage holder are all rather interested in making sure that the building is complain with relavant codes. The OP on this thread lives "near St. Louis, MO." St. Louis is a large city and it is therefore likely that, over the life of the OP's installtion, there will be multiple opportunities for 3rd parties (bldg. inspectors, ins. adjusters, appraisers, buyer's insp., etc. etc.) to examine whether the installation is (1) safe, and (2) compliant. If the 3rd parties do not believe it meets one of those criteria, it will cause headaches ($$$) for the OP, even if it never results in an actual hazard.

And I would not like to live in one of the (now few) areas in the U.S. w/o code enforcement, unless my nearest neighbor was well away from me. Even if I were rigorous in applying "common sense" to building and operating a home (everything from heathing to waste disposal), w/o codes and regulations, there is no assurance that the neighbors would be.

Peace,
- Sequoia