Installing Wood Insert to Limestone Fireplace

[Scottybdiving]

Hi folks, 1st time poster here. We are wanting to install a Hearthstone Clydesdale in our all masonry fireplace. When we built the house 20+ years ago, we didn't notice how irregular the limestone facia is. Now that we will be mounting a flat cast iron surround to the surface, the inconsistencies are very apparent. I cut a piece of plywood matching the surround to use as a template. I'm just wondering if anybody has ran into this problem and how did you solve or compromise the issue?

 

[Fiddlerbob]

I had a similar issue installing a Blaze King Princess insert. The factory shroud would have looked terrible due to the rough rock on my fireplace. So I made a custom surround that fit inside the fireplace. I designed the surround and went to a local welding/sheetmetal shop to get it made. I had the stove in my possession before making the shroud so that there would be no mistakes in dimensions before the installation. I can't advise too much about your specific circumstances but the point is you don't necessarily have to use the factory surround.

Here's a link to my finished project:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ance-thread-everything-bk.181827/post-2465880

 

[DuaeGuttae]

When you used the template, did the irregularities make it unsightly or just not possible with the insert? We have a huge river rock facade on our fireplace which made it impossible to install the factory surround because the insert ends us being a bit recessed at the attachment points. The surround isn't actually required, but we prefer to have the sides of the fireplace covered. If ours attached, I would have it installed in front of the river rock and been happy. There would have been gaps, but I don't believe that installs with full liners have any requirement for the faceplate to be sealed. Nobody spends much time perpendicular to our fireplace facade, so I don't think the gaps would be particularly noticeable.

We haven't completed any nice custom surround as fiddlerbob did above, but that's the idea that we were looking at. Right now our surround is disassembled and the sides just rest between the insert and the fireplace walls. We'll get there someday.

I think a Clydesdale would look very nice set against that Austin stone fireplace. What kind of firewood do you have in your part of the state? We have lots of live oak and cedar.

 

[Scottybdiving]

Thanks for the replies. The Clydesdale we bought is the brown enamel cast iron and the look is what attracted us to it. The surround plays a big part in it. I think the gaps would be more of an aesthetic issue. You are right in that it would probably not be noticeable from the front. We may just have it installed as is, and see if we feel like it needs to be modified or not.

We have mostly live oak, with some post oak and Spanish red oak. As you know live oak is excellent fuel, but very difficult to split. I generate most of my firewood by trimming trees on my property. The new insert will help keeping all of the heat from going up the chimney. Our fireplace has always drafted very well.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the surround on the Clydesdale is integral to the good looks of this insert. It will look great there.

 

[avsmusic1]

Did you snag a pre-cat model? All my local spots have them listed as unavailable as they work through certifying the new model

 

[Scottybdiving]

It is a "USED MODEL" and not a 2020.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I was picturing the brown enamel when I pictured the insert in the picture of your fireplace. I think it will look lovely.

I think that having it installed as is and seeing how it looks from the front is a good way to go. Post pictures up here, too. I know I've read threads in the past where people have intentionally left some gaps behind the surround to allow heat to escape, and it really wasn't noticeable. I can't tell how much variation there is on the face of your fireplace, but there is also the possibility of doing some very selective grinding if you need to get the surround a bit more flush.

I used to be envious on this forum when I'd read about people burning osage orange/hedge/bodark because it is such a dense wood. It took me a while of living in Texas to realize that all that live oak I was trimming and cutting was just as good. We also have a good supply of oak just from branches we've needed to trim. We hardly split any of it because it's so twisty and not huge in diameter, and it still dries just fine in our climate. We live on the edge of Hill Country and have way too much Texas Cedar, so we're slowing clearing that out as we can. We've been pleased that that does really well in our stove as well.

Do you have your install scheduled yet? It's been a chilly start to December, though it looks to be warming up a bit now. We had our insert installed last January and were surprised that we actually used it even in April.

 

[Scottybdiving]

It should be installed within the next two weeks. Have you ever tried burning cedar elm? I never hear much about it's use as firewood. It is a pretty hard wood too and fairly abundant in the Hill Country. BTW we are in western Travis County near Lake Travis.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Congratulations. It will be nice having that going into the coldest time.

We are a little northwest of San Antonio. We've only lived in Texas for about three years, and so I have been having to learn a whole lot of trees, and plants, and gardening in a totally different climate from my native Virginia. Our property naturally has a lot of live oak (quercus fusiformis) and "Cedar" (juniperus Ashei), but we also have Texas persimmon, hackberry, and I believe possibly one large cedar elm that had seeded a couple of volunteers that we removed. We also have a number of fruit and ornamentals that were planted by the previous owners, and we'll burn the necessary trimmings from those as well.

Having moved from the humid, high fertility east to the more arid southwest, it seems to me that the trees are just harder down here. I wonder if they just grow much more slowly because of the lack of water. There's obviously a huge difference between live oak and cedar, but the cedar down here is just as hard and dense as many of the softer hardwoods we had back in Virginia.

Forest Wood Products | Penn State Extension

Looking for information on wood products from the forest? Find resources on softwood and hardwood lumber, lumber grading, and timber value estimation.

extension.psu.edu

When I can't find reliable btu data for the type of wood I'm looking into, I sometimes check on the "janka hardness" charts that I can find online. It may not be a perfect equivalent, but it provides some helpful information. According to those, cedar elm is a very decent hardwood.

I don't want to derail this thread into what more rightly belongs in the woodshed forum, but it's nice to "meet" someone from the same relative area.

Please do post up pictures when you get your Clydesdale installed. We all enjoy celebrating a successful stove/insert. And if you do need to make adjustments to the fireplace face to accommodate the surround, there are plenty of knowledgeable do-it-yourselfers who can give advice.

 

[Scottybdiving]

I will be sure to post pics after the install. One more question. Do you hard wire the blower or just use the cord and plug it in when in use?

BTW, cedar elm is just a nickname. My grandfather used to refer to them as (piss elm) for some unknown reason. They are also commonly known as Texas elm. Texas A&M Forest Service

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Some people do hardwire their blowers. We just run it along the edge of the raised hearth and down to a nearby outlet. There's a window air conditioner there that we unplug, and we plug in the blower. It's not the most aesthetically pleasing arrangement in the world, but it keeps our main rooms feeling much more comfortable.



You can see some rockwool insulation peeking out over our side surround panels where we haven't yet installed the modified piece up above.

Your grandfather's name for cedar elm is one I've read on this forum any number of times from the midwestern contingent. I think they usually use it for slippery elm, but I guess the elm family must have a pretty distinctive odor. I really dislike the cedar pollen (I'm highly allergic), but I do enjoy the aroma of all the cedar wood we cut.

 

[Scottybdiving]

We were able to get an early slot on the installers schedule. He finished in the evening yesterday. We will run a break-in fire tonight but we are on a warming streak until around Christmas Day. Will probably run it all day if that happens.

We are still trying to decide whether to hardwire or just hide the cord for the blower.

 

[begreen]

Another option would be to replace it with a white cord or paint it with almond or antique white paint.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

That looks fantastic! Thanks for posting the photo. We'll need one when it actually has fire, you know.

It may be different in person, of course, since I am just looking at a small screen, but that brown enamel is so eye-catching, I didn't even notice the cord until I looked for it. How are the gaps between the limestone and surround now that you actually have it in place?

I put a bit of a bigger afternoon load in our stove than usual today, and it got our stove room up to 80. It was still and cloudy outside as opposed to the clear and super-windy we were having earlier in the week, and I guess the house just wasn't losing heat as fast as I expected. Nobody really minded, though, and now that it's just low coals, the kids were crowded around the insert wondering if I was going to stoke it. I told them not when it was still 77 in the room.

 

[Scottybdiving]

The cord lacks about 6" reaching the wall plug. I was thinking about shortening the cord and moving the plug to just outside the surround, and using an extension cord while it's being used. I will work with it for a while before I cut the cord

I ran the recommended break-in fire last night with some kindling and a couple small pieces of oak. We followed the guidelines and kept it to just warm to the touch. It was off-gassing pretty well as mentioned in the owner's manual. When I shut it down it burned slowly until there was no flame and stayed warm until we went to bed. Now we can't wait to fire it up and see what she can do but the weather will not be conducive for that until at least Christmas Eve.

 

[Scottybdiving]

I woke up at 6 AM and it was 36º. I couldn't resist building a fire although temps were forecast for the 60's today. I used some small chunks of live oak from the splitter and a stick of fatwood. There is a good draft but it seems to take a while using live oak. The fire went well until I opened the door to add more sticks of wood. The gasket seal fell down from the upper left corner. I tried using a couple sticks to press it back in place but it didn't have any adhesive and it is partially deteriorated. I had to close the door, thus pinching the seal further. I plugged in the blower and experienced an unpleasant fan shroud noise or vibration. I have read about this in other threads and it seems that there is a fix. Wish this one had come with the fix already installed. I emailed the dealer and they replied back and should have a tech out soon.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I woke up at 6 AM and it was 36º. I couldn't resist building a fire although temps were forecast for the 60's today. I used some small chunks of live oak from the splitter and a stick of fatwood. There is a good draft but it seems to take a while using live oak. The fire went well until I opened the door to add more sticks of wood. The gasket seal fell down from the upper left corner. I tried using a couple sticks to press it back in place but it didn't have any adhesive and it is partially deteriorated. I had to close the door, thus pinching the seal further. I plugged in the blower and experienced an unpleasant fan shroud noise or vibration. I have read about this in other threads and it seems that there is a fix. Wish this one had come with the fix already installed. I emailed the dealer and they replied back and should have a tech out soon.
View attachment 269915

I hope things got addressed so that you're able to enjoy that insert to its fullest. It certainly looks beautiful!

We find that live oak, even if dry, doesn't ignite quickly. I suppose that's why historically it used to survive the wildfires that kept the cedar in check. We tend to use cedar or other woods to do a quick startup fire and then ignite the oak on coals left behind.

That's what we did yesterday afternoon when the temperatures started dropping. It was still warm enough in our house that we didn't need a lot of heat but with the wind and cold blowing in, we knew we'd want a good overnight fire. We therefore lit a cedar fire to produce a coal bed (and enough heat to maintain things) but didn't load it up till about nine thirty when we put in a couple large cedar splits and three smaller unsplit oak branches. It burned very nicely overnight and left us with an easy relight this morning. I'm not sure we'll get out of the thirties today, so we'll keep it burning throughout the day.

 

[Scottybdiving]

I hope things got addressed so that you're able to enjoy that insert to its fullest. It certainly looks beautiful!

We find that live oak, even if dry, doesn't ignite quickly. I suppose that's why historically it used to survive the wildfires that kept the cedar in check. We tend to use cedar or other woods to do a quick startup fire and then ignite the oak on coals left behind.

That's what we did yesterday afternoon when the temperatures started dropping. It was still warm enough in our house that we didn't need a lot of heat but with the wind and cold blowing in, we knew we'd want a good overnight fire. We therefore lit a cedar fire to produce a coal bed (and enough heat to maintain things) but didn't load it up till about nine thirty when we put in a couple large cedar splits and three smaller unsplit oak branches. It burned very nicely overnight and left us with an easy relight this morning. I'm not sure we'll get out of the thirties today, so we'll keep it burning throughout the day.

I did exactly the same thing except I used some kindling from a bundle of softwood that I purchased and I went straight to live oak. My heater has not came on once since I started the stove yesterday. The temperature in the hallway, which is 30' away from the FP is staying at 72-74.

I am going through a learning curve with the insert. I am used to burning lots of wood in the masonry FP and not having to worry about coals and ash falling out. How do you manage the coals and keep them from rolling out when you open the door? It's not a fire hazard since everything is stone and tile. It gets in the way of the door closing against the seal if you don't bush it away. How often do you remove some of the coals during use, or do you ?

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I did exactly the same thing except I used some kindling from a bundle of softwood that I purchased and I went straight to live oak. My heater has not came on once since I started the stove yesterday. The temperature in the hallway, which is 30' away from the FP is staying at 72-74.

I am going through a learning curve with the insert. I am used to burning lots of wood in the masonry FP and not having to worry about coals and ash falling out. How do you manage the coals and keep them from rolling out when you open the door? It's not a fire hazard since everything is stone and tile. It gets in the way of the door closing against the seal if you don't bush it away. How often do you remove some of the coals during use, or do you ?

We try not ever to remove a significant amount of coals from the stove, but some small ones do come out on occasion if we remove ash during a long streak of burning. (This was common for us in Virginia when we rarely let the stove go out in winter. Here we'll burn for several days but have some several day streaks where we don't, it seems, so we try to save our cleanouts for times when the stove is cold.)

It's good to let a layer of ash build up on the bottom of the firebox. About the only tools we use in our stove are an ash rake, something like this:
Amazon product ASIN B005S4LINQand a shovel or special scoop to remove ash.

We use it to push everything to the back of the firebox, and then we can rake coals to the front (or sometimes all the way to one side if there are a lot) for a reload. If we need to clean out ash, we try to do it from the pile that has had all the large coals removed.

Do you have a metal bucket with a lid and a non-combustible surface outside for storing it? You do need to have a good ash/coal disposal system with a woodstove.

Does your stove load primarily E/W (wood parallel to glass) or N/S (cut ends facing the glass)? We load ours mostly N/S, and I find I'm more likely to end up with some ash coming out the door if I put wood too close to the glass, or if I've had an E/W piece that has rolled forward. It does happen on occasion, and I have a little hearth brush that I use to sweep it into our metal coal shovel like a dustpan, and I return it to the stove. I don't think we've ever had a coal fall out of the stove. We try to remove ash before it comes up to the level of the protective lip inside our door, and we try to keep wood behind that, not on top of it. (I just loaded the stove with a slightly too long cedar split, though. It fit, but it's too close to the glass, so it will probably give us a dark spot and some ash on the gasket in the morning. I find that when I first open the stove, if I leave the door cracked just a hair, sometimes some ash that may be on the gasket will get caught in the draft and fly back into the stove.)

I'm just watching our nighttime load take off. We never did get out of the thirties today, and it's already below freezing. I'm sure thankful for wood heat. It doesn't heat our whole house, but it makes it a whole lot nicer in the winter than it ever used to be.

 

[Scottybdiving]

It loads primarily E-W. All of my seasoned wood was cut 22" - 24" for the FP. I am having to select <22" pieces and will ultimately have to cut some of the wood in half. I may be able to load some of the halves N-S. Seems like my ash gets up to the lip after only a day of burning. Then from there it becomes a struggle to keep it from falling out.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

It loads primarily E-W. All of my seasoned wood was cut 22" - 24" for the FP. I am having to select <22" pieces and will ultimately have to cut some of the wood in half. I may be able to load some of the halves N-S. Seems like my ash gets up to the lip after only a day of burning. Then from there it becomes a struggle to keep it from falling out.

Some wood produces more ash than other, and I think live oak does produce a lot. The ash will compress over time. Even one load can produce what seems like a lot, but if you can rake it back a bit from the door and load on top of it, it does compress. That's not to say you can do that indefinitely. We remove ash probably once a week, and we'd do it more if burning heavily (which we've been doing for a couple days now. It's thirty degrees now, and our house can easily take all the BTU's we want to give it in those temperatures.)

Are you having problems only with gray ash, or are you also experiencing a lot of build up of glowing coals? Sometimes when it's cold and you're wanting to reload the stove more frequently, there isn't a lot of time to let the coals burn out naturally. Opening the air control back up on a full coal bed can help, but a great way to handle excessive coaling is to rake all the coals forward near to the incoming primary air and to put one small piece of wood on top (running east/west). We usually use cedar for that, but yesterday the only small wood I had in the house when I wanted to burn coals down in the evening was a piece of twisty live oak branch, and it worked perfectly fine for the purpose. It produces a little burst of heat and makes more room in the firebox for a full load.

There is a learning curve switching from an open fireplace to a stove or even from stove to stove. My husband grew up with a fireplace, and I grew up with a non-EPA woodstove (that my 84 year-old mother still uses to heat her house). For my husband, the biggest adjustment was probably the idea of "batch burning" (load it up and let it burn down to coals before doing anything else). For me the biggest adjustment was that I needed to leave the door open (or just loose on its latch) for a few minutes at the beginning of the burn. It still feels sort of wrong to me to do that, but it's how both my stove inserts were designed to work on start up. I don't know if it's true of Hearthstone stoves or not.

If you're going to be doing a lot of cutting down of firewood splits, you might want to look into a sawbuck to make the process easier and safer. A lot of members here have built their own. We use a version we purchased from Northern Tool that includes a chainsaw holder. I've seen them on sale for half price on occasion.

 

[Scottybdiving]

I agree, live oak seems to produce a lot of ash and the coals take a long time to break down. On the bright side, we heated our 2200 SF house entirely for 3 days on about 1/2 the wood we would have burnt in the FP. It kept the house at 70+ and best of all drove the humidity out during the dreary wet conditions. we experienced.

I have about 1-1/2 cords of oversized wood. About 50/50 splits vs twisty pieces from pruning. Everything I am cutting now going forward is <18". The sawbuck idea is good but I don't know if there is enough to justify it.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I agree, live oak seems to produce a lot of ash and the coals take a long time to break down. On the bright side, we heated our 2200 SF house entirely for 3 days on about 1/2 the wood we would have burnt in the FP. It kept the house at 70+ and best of all drove the humidity out during the dreary wet conditions. we experienced.

I have about 1-1/2 cords of oversized wood. About 50/50 splits vs twisty pieces from pruning. Everything I am cutting now going forward is <18". The sawbuck idea is good but I don't know if there is enough to justify it.

We find it very hard to split live oak, and for most of the branch wood we don't bother. For us the sawbuck is super-useful because most of our wood doesn't need splitting, but it sounds as though you don't have too much wood on hand to cut down to size. We originally bought it when we lived outside of Washington, D.C., and our wood was all scrounged from trees people had taken down in their yards. We had to cut down lots of splits. If we had been managing our own cutting from the get-go, it would have been different, I think. It does continue to be useful down here, though, because it's a very easy way for us to deal with all our cedar stems and branches. I'm sure my husband likes it because I feel comfortable using it, so I can do some of the cutting that would otherwise fall to him.



Those are just a couple of piles we still need to clean up. We concentrated on chipping first, and we need to get to sawing soon. A lot of people would scoff at the small wood, but our land is full of it, and I'd much rather use it to add heat to my house than pay to haul it to the landfill.

It's great that you used your stove so effectively to heat and dehumidify these past few days. How much rain did you get from that front? We got 3/4 of an inch, but I think we're still in extreme drought conditions. I would love some more.

 

[Scottybdiving]

We got 2.1" but I was out working yesterday and the ground has already soaked it up. I was able to drive around most of my property yesterday