Insulating a pellet insert?

[smith10210]

Hi just found this board today seems like some knowledgeable people here. I recently bought a house with a Quadra fire Castile pellet insert and was wondering if the outside portion of the unit should be insulated. Its the part that is outside the house that is boxed in. Its like a big ice cube in the middle of winter when it isnt in use . I had caulked up the bottom portion of the stove when facing it seemed to help the draft problem. I was thinking of gaining access to the outside portion and putting blown insulation in there but was concerned it would get to close to the fresh air intake and blower motor and other internal parts.. My second option was to pull the siding off the outside portion and put some blue insulation on all sides of the encloser and reinstall the siding. Also I just sold the wood stove that was included in the house which was a pacific energy summit A. I replace it with a BigE. I just got sick of chopping and splitting wood by hand the heat was great but it was a pain and we had close to 7 feet of snow on our deck this winter it was to hard to access the wood.. Hopefully the BigE will work out.. Thanks for any info or advice..

 

[Gooserider]

Welcome to the forums - this does sound like a bit of a challenge...

I will admit I'm not a pellet person, and don't know the stove you are talking about, however it is almost NEVER a good idea to modify a stove directly, and you need to be careful about changing the area around the stove not to introduce combustible materials into required clearance spaces.

Could you post some pictures of your installation, (both inside and outside the house) and describe more specifically the problem areas, and we may be able to help you better. Given that it is an insert, we will also need to know more about the fireplace it's installed in, what sort of fireplace was it? Masonry or pre-fab? How is it vented, both originally and now with the pellet stove? Is there a block off plate in the chimney? Was the original installation permitted and inspected?

From some of your description, I'm wondering IS there a fireplace to begin with? (if not this may be an unsafe install?)

Gooserider

 

[jtp10181]

Goose, the Quad pellet inserts can be installed right into the wall as a built in fireplace. smith10210, it sounds like this is what you have? It also sounds like the builder did not treat the chase walls behind it like outside walls of the house (2x6, insulation, drywall). So then basically what you have a pellet insert / window. As you have found out, fireplaces make bad windows. We fix this all winter long for people. We take off a bunch of siding, cut a hole in the back of the chase. Insulate and drywall the walls / draftstop and put it all back together. Don't forget to caulk all the seams. You need an air barrier on all 6 sides of the insulation for it do anything worthwhile.

 

[Gooserider]

OK, that makes a bit more sense - sounds like you're more on track with it than I was.

Gooserider

 

[MrGriz]

Goose, the Quad pellet inserts can be installed right into the wall as a built in fireplace. smith10210, it sounds like this is what you have? It also sounds like the builder did not treat the chase walls behind it like outside walls of the house (2x6, insulation, drywall). So then basically what you have a pellet insert / window.

I can see it now... Haul the window A/C unit out to the shed and pop the pellet insert in it's place...All set for old man winter...

 

[smith10210]

It looks like it has 3/4 or inch plywood with roofing and siding. It looks fine like its part of the house but it definitely needs to be insulated. The pellet stove is super cold in the winter when touching it and i could feel a good draft when laying on the floor which I caulked the lower portion of the insert which took care of it. There was no existing fireplace it was installed right in the wall. I will get some pics up tomorrow. I'm not much of a Carpenter and wanted to save some money and try to insulated the outside portion my self. I do have access to a good Carpenter but am short on cash at the moment.

 

[smith10210]

Goose, the Quad pellet inserts can be installed right into the wall as a built in fireplace. smith10210, it sounds like this is what you have? It also sounds like the builder did not treat the chase walls behind it like outside walls of the house (2x6, insulation, drywall). So then basically what you have a pellet insert / window. As you have found out, fireplaces make bad windows. We fix this all winter long for people. We take off a bunch of siding, cut a hole in the back of the chase. Insulate and drywall the walls / draftstop and put it all back together. Don't forget to caulk all the seams. You need an air barrier on all 6 sides of the insulation for it do anything worthwhile.

I think I'll call my friend which is a master carpenter and tell him what you are telling me. It shouldn't be much cash since its about 3' or more all around with a roof. I will get some pics up though. Thanks alot for the info..

Andrew

 

[Gooserider]

When talking to your carpenter, it would be a good idea to have a copy of the installation manual handy for him to look at, as he will need to know about any clearance to combustible requirements or other instructions. If you don't have the manual, you should be able to download one from the Quad website. Sounds like the insulation is possible, but it needs to be done safely.

Gooserider

 

[smith10210]

When talking to your carpenter, it would be a good idea to have a copy of the installation manual handy for him to look at, as he will need to know about any clearance to combustible requirements or other instructions. If you don't have the manual, you should be able to download one from the Quad website. Sounds like the insulation is possible, but it needs to be done safely.

Gooserider

I do have the install manual I will relay that info to him Thanks Goose

 

[smith10210]

When talking to your carpenter, it would be a good idea to have a copy of the installation manual handy for him to look at, as he will need to know about any clearance to combustible requirements or other instructions. If you don't have the manual, you should be able to download one from the Quad website. Sounds like the insulation is possible, but it needs to be done safely.

Gooserider

I do have the install manual I will relay that info to him Thanks Goose O one more thing is it necessary for the fresh air vent to be hooked up?. Its not at the moment I figured if I get this fixed I want it to be right..

 

[Gooserider]

When talking to your carpenter, it would be a good idea to have a copy of the installation manual handy for him to look at, as he will need to know about any clearance to combustible requirements or other instructions. If you don't have the manual, you should be able to download one from the Quad website. Sounds like the insulation is possible, but it needs to be done safely.

Gooserider

I do have the install manual I will relay that info to him Thanks Goose O one more thing is it necessary for the fresh air vent to be hooked up?. Its not at the moment I figured if I get this fixed I want it to be right..

I assume that by "fresh air vent" you mean the outside air intake? The use of outside are is very important in newer "tight construction" homes, and is required in some areas on all new installs. However it is less critical in older "leakier" homes. The idea is that by burning outside air, your pellet stove won't be competing for combustion air with other appliances. It may also improve your heating efficiency a bit since you won't be burning air that you've already paid to heat. :coolsmile: Given that you were presumably passed the way it is, I would say that hooking up the outside air might help, and certainly wouldn't hurt, but isn't essential.

Gooserider

 

[jtp10181]

I can't remember specifics for the pellet inserts installed as a built-in. Check the manual to see if it requires the outside air kit, some insert units draw air from behind and if its built in and sealed up there would not be a lot of air flow back there. Also check the pictures and parts required for built in installs. You need some extra shrouds and parts to make it safe. While there is a hole in the wall check to make sure they are all on there. They act mostly as heat shields so without them it could be a fire hazard.

 

[smith10210]

It says the outside air inlet is to be used for mobile home use but doesnt say it is required for home maybe thats why it isnt insulated very well but there is wide gaps on the side of the unit so maybe it can draw enough in from there. Do you have to use special piping for the fresh air inlet? I know the exhaust you have to use type L pipe..

 

[smith10210]

Heres some pics..

 

[GVA]

What is in the 1st pic it looks like smaller pipe being shoved into bigger pipe with some rope gasket shoved in to seal it
1) you may want to get a proper thimble for the pass thru to comply with the clearances..... Especially on the outside with that vinyl siding...
2) what kind of cap is that?????
3) Clearance from wall I think is 12"(for discharge)(EDIT****** it's 6" from the wall) and from vegetation 36" I'll post a simpson link below... It's a horizontal termination and you'll have lots of sparks coming out of the end of that pipe......

As for outside air JTP knows the quads but some things to consider
1) it's an insert
2) It looks like fairly new construction.(tight house)
3) once it is insulated you may have a noticeable change in performance (cause your closing off it's current air supply...)

I would have your friend rip that box out and start over it may be easier.
It should also have support on the bottom of that box....
the link to the venting but your manual should tell you the quad requirements..
(broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/docs/instruct/L502_aug05.pdf)

 

[jtp10181]

Mmmm... wow... that's scary. Personally I would call a pro and have them come look at it and see what needs to be done to make the install right. You definitely should pick up some proper venting and a wall thimble (which will keep the new insulation away from the pipe). Also, as I said, check to make sure the shroud and all other parts are on there required for a "Built-In" installation. As GVA suggested it might not be a bad idea to get a the OAK (outside air kit) since it would be a pretty simple install. Read over the manual and make sure all the clearances are met with the unit and vent termination. If you have any questions about the manual you can call Quad technical (should be a number on the manual) and they are really helpful as well.

Goes to show... like I said before, fireplaces don't make very good windows. It is basically installed outside. Imagine sawzalling a hole the size of a pellet insert right in the side of your house and just leaving it open all winter. What you have here would be the equivalent of leaving the wall behind the refrigerator bare (on an outside wall) because you wont ever see it.

 

[smith10210]

I'm trying to get a a service tech to come out. I only have 3 dealers in the area that carry Quadra fire and one wouldn't because it wasn't installed by them. I have two more to call tomorrow. It shouldn't be a big deal if I could find a qualified person to actually come out and at least look at it.

 

[jtp10181]

I assume you tried this place? http://www.blackhatchimney.com/
Is that the one that would not look at it because they didn't install it?

 

[smith10210]

Yes it was. There is another one thats like 5miles away. I talked to another business nearby that carries other pellets stoves and wood stoves and he said I need a firebox insert that had fiberglass insulation around it with a outside air kit. He said they are $300 to $400 dollars but are needed for my type of install im not to sure hopefully I can get someone that installs these out here soon. I have used it for 2 winters and the previous owners used it for 4 years with no problems but it needs to be fixed..

 

[Gooserider]

Yes it was. There is another one thats like 5miles away. I talked to another business nearby that carries other pellets stoves and wood stoves and he said I need a firebox insert that had fiberglass insulation around it with a outside air kit. He said they are $300 to $400 dollars but are needed for my type of install im not to sure hopefully I can get someone that installs these out here soon. I have used it for 2 winters and the previous owners used it for 4 years with no problems but it needs to be fixed..

I don't know, but that person might well be right - are you SURE the person you got the house from actually had this install inspected? It certainly looks like a "hack job" to me, and I'm not even a building professional! You definitely need to give this install some serious attention. I don't have enough pellet knowledge to say just what needs to be done to fix it properly, but it definitely looks like another fine product from the FUBAR Const. Co. the way it is.

Gooserider

 

[jtp10181]

I talked to another business nearby that carries other pellets stoves and wood stoves and he said I need a firebox insert that had fiberglass insulation around it with a outside air kit.

Wha? Firebox insert? Maybe he is talking about the shroud that you may or may not have already. You definatly don't want insulation all packed around it. You just need the walls of the "dog house" properly insulated, just like an outside wall of the home.