Intensifier tech coming for old stoves

[Obadiah]

Thanks for the update Woody. This is great news. I'm also glad to hear that you are working with Jason. That means we'll see this technology in the US too. Any thoughts on importing the Pyroclassic from NZ too?
http://www.pyroclassic.co.nz/

As get more information can you start a new thread on this topic so that it is easier for folks to find? Maybe put NZ Firemaster in the title for easy searching.

Thankyou! I will start another post and see what Jason would like to talk about, it is Stove Season in NZ and Wildfire Season here,
I guess WA touched off pretty good last weekend, our daughter was at a wedding in Wenatchee with her husband and our grandsons and just got out hours before the firestorm hit. http://www.weather.com/safety/wildfires/news/fire-wenatchee-washington. It looks like we will be mobilized soon. Not sure how much I will be able to connect here, but thanks to smart phones and cell towers, who knows?

I will talk to Jason and see what we can do to bing the Pyroclassic line over, we are in the process of introducing several new cookstove lines as well as developing the Intensifire Technology in a way so it can be best utilized to help as many folks as possible.The testing and certification process is very expensive. I will need to see what we can do to make it happen ......What few folks know about Jason is he is very concerned about our environment and what he views as the exploitation of it, so he developed the Intensifire from that perspective. Anyone who has watched Whale Wars may have watched as the boat he was on was rammed by the Japanese Processing ship and almost killed! Pretty incredible story. I come from a different side of the story being surrounded with Loggers and Trappers and having Tom Oar of the History Channels Mountain-men Fame as a neighbor. Yet we both love Guns, Guts and Glory! So we get along great. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Melow....we are doing exactly that, Helping folks keep their old Shraders, FIshers, and Timberlines and the hundreds of other stoves out there. Having participated it the Pilot Woodstove Changeout program we took hundreds of perfectly fine old woodstoves to the scape heap and I had nightmares for years afterwards ;( What a waste!

We welcome folks who have a interest in this technology and design to collaborate with us to produce cleaner burning solid fueled appliances. We also understand the desire for knowledge and a free INTERNET.We are concerned as we are seeing some folks trying to copy the Intensifire Technology. The design is patented and protected we have the legal means and resources to protect any infringements against it to the utmost extent of the law worldwide. Jason has been cautions about releasing too much info until he had someone he could trust to work with him in marketing it properly, with good reason. Anyone who has ever been to a HPBA show will know what I am talking about.

Here are some places where folks can follow what is going on via the internet.
Jason's is (broken link removed) , https://www.facebook.com/Intensifire , http://www.popularmechanics.com/hom...tove-decathlon-finalist-intensifire-16132832/ ,

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, http://www.permies.com/t/27994/wood-burning-stoves/Increase-wood-stove-efficiency-Intensifire, https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/intensifire.120382/
Of course folks can always call me if they have questions and we'll do our best to fill in any blanks.

. Our intentions are to offer this technology to folks on several different levels.
1. Retrofitting existing old pre EPA stoves, that millions are still using so that they can burn them cleanly. Obadiah's was part of the EPA HPBA Stove Change Out Pilot Program in Libby MT. many years ago and did 70% of the stoves changed out. In the process of that experiment we put ourselves out of business locally and had to close our store. That opened up a new frontier, the Internet......Thanks to some smart daughters, here we are now A new Para-dyne, who our age would have ever thunk!
2. Offering Barrel Stove Kits for folks who cant afford a new high dollar EPA stove but need to heat their structures.
3. Launching our own line of Modular Stoves that will be available in various levels of sophistication for folks with various income levels. We will have clean burning stoves for every budget.
4. Working together with existing manufactures to allow them to use our technology under license to bring their product line into EPA compliance.
5. Introduce new products that provide solutions to many issues that face the world, such as clean burning cookstoves for 3rd world countries.
6. Small scale Biomass Co-generation plants for remote Islands of the world to deal with the rubbish issues and stop the dumping of trash into the Oceans of the world and resolve the landfill problems of dealing with waste products.
7. We are also kicking around many other ideas such as Thermoelectric, Domestic Hot Water Systems, Clean Burning Rubber Burners and Electrical Production.
Thanks

 

[begreen]

Moved to the classics forum as pre-EPA stoves is where the Intensifier technology will be employed. If a new EPA stove is developed please post that information in the main forum.

 

[mellow]

I still say you put Jason's dad on the front of the box and label it "Santa Approved"

 

[Kiwi Firemaster]

Hi all,

it has been great to have the prospect of seeing the IntensiFire get some traction thanks to Woody. I will try to respond where I can to queries here, or directly to me.

Begreen you might want to review that decision to move this thread, the bulk of my work has been on number 3. for Woody, something I hope will be quite special when we have it ready to go. But given the title I guess you are right We can start another thread when the time is right.

Mellow that is actually a damn good idea, I will pass it on to Dad.

 

[bholler]

I still have yet to hear any description of how this device actually works.

 

[begreen]

My understanding is that it introduces downdraft burning into the firebox via a central tube that replaces the baffle. In testing this neared zero emissions, outperforming modern EPA stoves and pellet stoves. I saw it burning during the Wash. DC trials and there was not a whiff of smoke coming from the chimney in spite of being adapted to an old Treemont stove.

 

[bholler]

My understanding is that it introduces downdraft burning into the firebox via a central tube that replaces the baffle. In testing this neared zero emissions, outperforming modern EPA stoves and pellet stoves. I saw it burning during the Wash. DC trials and there was not a whiff of smoke coming from the chimney in spite of being adapted to an old Treemont stove.

Ok i thought it also used imbedded metals like a cat but i could be wrong

 

[Kiwi Firemaster]

Hi bholler, and thank you for being interested enough to post.

First off I will quote a bit of advice that I have been given by a friend, who is a rather successful businessman qualified to give the advice. The context was that he had just viewed my prototype stove for burning wet wood, and having previously been a chimney sweep he understood the magnitude of the technology before him. His advice:

"Sell the results not the technology".

Now I have teamed up with Woody, as my representative on the ground there I will be relying on his guidance on how much to disseminate.

What would be helpful to me, at least in the short to medium term, is if people on this great forum steered away from that particular discussion. I guess it doesn't leave much to discuss right now

Ultimately I want to make a living out of this and, in the four years I have been doing this in New Zealand, I have found that people who want to buy one have a whole lot of questions they ask, and "how does it work" isn't one of them. That question usually ends up with me trapped in a circular discussion that goes nowhere. You are a Chimney Sweep bholler so may very well end up at the intimate end of an IntensiFire, if so you will experience this. Btw as a professional in the business the professional approach for you would be for us to get a Non Disclosure Agreement in place before any serious discussion about the technology takes place. I say this because you guys really are professionals compared to what is done in New Zealand, and command a lot of respect! Here any person with a brush set can charge you to climb on your roof and run it down your flue.

As I type I see your response about catalysts. No there isn't any, just a better design

 

[bholler]

Ok i though the last time it was brought up here that is what i was told but it could have been a different product. And if i need a non disclosure agreement to know how it works how would i possibly sell it to a customer? As a pro who would either be working on or selling them i need to know how they work.

 

[bholler]

Btw i do not doubt that your product works well i saw it on popular mechanics and it obviously tested well. I hope you get the technology put into a new stove and on the market here. It definitely looks interesting and i am not trying to bad mouth your product.

 

[begreen]

Your Cawley LeMay might be a good test bed. The best way to understand how well it works is to try it out.

 

[bholler]

I am not screwing with my cawley my secondary combustion system works just fine. But i have plenty of smoke dragons sitting in the scrap yard to try it on.

 

[mellow]

I didn't even get to see it guys, could I have, probably, but I saw enough from looking at the live test results and the steam coming from the chimney to know it was working.

My only thought is how hot you have to get the fire going to get the device working, I hope that can be brought down to lower temps as most old people with smoke dragons love to idle them.

 

[bholler]

What effect does it have on burn times? And how much space in the firebox do you loose?

 

[mellow]

You can see the size in that video, it is about the size of a 6" liner.

 

[Obadiah]

Greetings from DC where this technology got its start here in the U.S. I'm here in our nations Capital meeting with our Montana Senators and Congressman on other business. I apologize for the delay in responding but it's been pretty hectic lately. Lots of irons in the fire at the moment.
As Jason has all ready mentioned, how the Intensifire works is Classified. As many have witnessed, it really does work; that's what sold me. Based on that I have chosen to make a substantial investment in bringing it to market in a form that will be in a plug and play format. I hope folks can respect our choice to limit certain information to those who have partnered with us to make it a reality and have entered into a NDA. Stay tuned we are working hard to bring it to fruition. When we have a product ready to sell here, some of the folks here will be the first to get one to try out for some feedback. Of course nothing seems to happen as fast as it we'd hope in most cases. We still have Prototypes to test and modify, testing labs to deal with UL and EPA certification to aquire. Lots of costs involved with a project like this.

 

[maple1]

I think the issue some here might have is that they have seen lots of snake-oil type stuff come & go over the years - and the typical MO with those was fluffy PR promising the moon but light on details on the tech & how it worked.

So it's a fine line between protecting your interests, and not appearing to fall into that category of product. Most of the really good tech out there will still provide a bit of info on how they do it, usually with cut-away diagrams or whatever. Is there a patent in the works? Sounds like it might be a good idea.

Good luck - actually hope this will be successful for you.

 

[bholler]

Yes that is my train of thought exactly maple1 I don't think this is one of those cases because of its success in the competition. And i really do hope it all works out. But for me it is very hard to accept a product without knowing anything about it. Without knowing how it works i cant make any judgement on durability versatility or anything.

 

[Obadiah]

I think the issue some here might have is that they have seen lots of snake-oil type stuff come & go over the years - and the typical MO with those was fluffy PR promising the moon but light on details on the tech & how it worked.But for me it is very hard to accept a product without knowing anything about it. Without knowing how it works i cant make any judgement on durability versatility or anything.

Maple1, thanks for the comment, snake oil stoves, are not my cup of tea either, they don't sell well.......
I would not be on board with Jason if that was the case here.

Let me ask you all a simple question......If someone has something of value, where do they put it, out in the open where someone can walk away with it, or do they do their best to protect it?
Lets get real here folks, not everyone has the most self sacrificing intentions. Jason has already demonstrated his invention for the world to witness. Intensifier won awards at the Woodstove Decathlon in DC back in 2013. Jason clearly demonstrated it works as Bholler admits. They invested a ton of money already to get to that point, by making the trip and entering the contest. Anyone priced a round trip ticket to DC from NZ, or stayed in a decent hotel in DC lately?
However, no one has realized a penny here in the US or NZ in return for all this effort thus far.

Originally Jason was very open about what he was doing and had the designs and info posted on his website. Unfortunately Jason felt the need to remove that info as we have some folks on another forum who are talking about copying the idea. "for prosperity sake of course".....
As I am now in the picture and the one Jason has chosen to make his dream a reality in North America, I take that responsibility seriously. I did not build one of the largest hearth dealerships in North America from one of the remotest places in the US, from not following through. Our specialized firefighting equipment speaks for itself in our ability to produce what we envision and "Extinguish Mediocrity" is our motto. Barring any unfortunate circumstances I believe this technology will see the light of day here in North America. It wont happen as soon as I would like, simply because of the hoops we still have left to jump through to do it properly. Unlike the old days in the 70s when we could dream it and build it and throw it out on the market, we live in a new world. If I remember correctly..... pre EPA there were something like 900 stove manufactures in North America. Most were mom and pop enterprises. In the 80s post EPA that number dropped to less than 100. Today how many stove manufactures are left, anyone venture to take a guess? The latest round of emission standards will cut that number drastically again. Anyone who thinks introducing a new stove into North America is easy has no idea what they are talking about. Just staying ahead of the new regulations in business and making a profit these days is challenging enough.

The Intensifier product is sold already in New Zealand and gaining traction as retrofits. Unfortunately my partner in this venture, Jason Stewart, is so far away he is already living in tomorrow as he is literary on the other-side of the world in a totally different time zone, not to mention he is in a different hemisphere, it is winter there and summer here. He is busy selling and installing Intensifiers and I am busy getting ready to fight wildfires, as we are facing one of the worst fire seasons since 1910. Being able to work together on perfecting the designs presents certain challenges, but Jason never ceases to amaze me. He is one of the one of the hardest working people I know. My vision for the North American market is bigger than just retrofits and we have a complete stove line planned as I have already outlined. Logistics on making this happen is challenging.
It is far easier to be on the other side of the fence and criticize what were trying to do, verses actually trying to make it happen. We wish we could make everyone happy and give everything away for free, but unfortunately, that is not the reality of the world we live in. So for now you'll just have to be happy with my "fluffy PR promising you the moon" but understand that we are going light on the details of how this baby works until we actually have all the details worked out and have something to actually demonstrate and market. We have the patent in place and the international legal team to defend it if necessary. Next comes the fun part as we begin the process of building the actual stoves and tweak them to figure out the, "knowing how it works i cant make any judgement on durability versatility or anything question" that bholler states. Join the club my friend, I'm invested in this project and I can't answer that question either. It is simply the reality of where we are at the moment. Hopefully folks can cut us some slack and understand the challenges we face to answer those questions in a honest truthful manner. Anyone who knows me, knows I am not going to blow smoke up your rear end to make us look like were something were not.

Those who are so inclined, can say a prayer for Jason and I as we need encouragement and resources to stay the course here and hopefully make a difference in the world of Pyromania.

 

[bholler]

Like i said I am interested in it and really hope it works out and we get to see these stoves on the market here. But don't push your product until you can tell us how it works I understand completely the need to keep it under wraps till your protection is in place I have industrial design and engineering degrees and have worked on many products being brought to market in the past. But i believe it would be more prudent to wait till you are protected and then introduce the product when you can explain it. But that is just my opinion you can do what ever you want but i know many chimney pros are very skeptical of products that make lots of claims but no explanation of how it works and that could earn you a bad rep before you even get to market. Again i really do hope we see these here soon.

 

[Fastdonzi]

Ditto, I Hope it's aHuge Success... And if Really Kicks Azz I will have one.. I'm Glad he has such a Great supporter on this side of the Globe..

 

[BrotherBart]

I really liked seeing the technology in D.C. but for the life of me I can't imagine how it is going to overcome just the space in the firebox that it displaces and/or makes unusable for the fuel load.

 

[3650]

Any news?

 

[Kiwi Firemaster]

Hi everyone,

well after visiting with Woody for a couple of months I have a better handle on the difference between the USA and New Zealand markets. One thing that has amazed me in both visits to the USA is how big it is, both economically and geographically. With Woody's experience, and explanations, it is easier to see how a retrofit device sits in your market. The answer is not very well, it comes with a lot of risks for the merchant or installer, and a lot of work relative to a fair return for the effort to make the sale. One difficult customer can cause a lot of headaches.

No doubt this journey will yet take a few turns yet, but we are always interested in talking with those interested in taking a place in it.

I will consider each request for a unit on a case by case basis, they can,and have been, ordered through my website. I must say that Woody isn't keen on me giving the technology out, but I have find a balance between protecting the technology and helping those that need one. Know that in most instances it takes design work on my behalf to adapt it to your stove, and that you will likely have to get some engineering work done locally for that adaption.

Please be patient, one thing I have learnt is that a new technology takes time to become known and gain acceptance. It will happen in time. I have to say that attitudes like that from bholler are not helpful and I have learnt to spend minimal time on those that want to know how it works before they will buy. Mainly because they never do, their own technical ability causing them to second guess me at every step. I have also learnt that the bulk of my customers don't want to know, or are incapable of knowing, how it works. What they do want to know is that it DOES work. A technical explanation is meaningless in this scenario, what they need is independent validation. Well if you look in my website you will find that, a letter of endorsement from a US Government Laboratory. I don't mean to insult you bholler, just pointing out how it is. I have been doing this for five winters in New Zealand now so have a feel for my customers.

Heck New Zealand doesn't even have a government laboratory, we sold that off in some crazy economic reforms in the mid 80's.

What I will point out is that the IntensiFire was selected as a finalist in the decathlon on the back of an independent laboratory test. In that test the efficiency was lifted from 52% to 75%. I have since made it better and beat 82% stoves in the Decathlon. The independent test was done by Spectrum Laboratories in Auckland and the testing is done in a calorific room, so a lot more accurate and reliable than most other testing that uses the stack loss method. There is no doubt the IntensiFire works, between that test and the decathlon result I don't feel the need to justify its performance. If someone wants to waste wood by continuing to send good energy up their stack instead of into their room then good luck with that.

Brother Bart: The independent test in the calorific room was conducted using the NZS 4012 & 4013 test method, this also measures output. The fuel load is calculated, and was correspondingly reduced because of the IntensiFire device. Despite a reduction in fuel mass the output increased from 4.8Kw to 6.5Kw, an increase of 35%. The IntensiFire burned hotter for longer with less wood, and delivered a lot more of that heat into the room. There is a further surprise for anyone that installs an IntensiFire

Burning wet wood is a major bonus that unfortunately doesn't get discussed much. One customer back here in New Zealand told me I should call it "the Incinerator" because he burnt all the green garden waste in it.

Mellow: Yes a fire needs to burn hot to burn cleanly if not using a cat. But there are solutions to achieve a longer burn time that will come out once I have the budget to put it into production. But as the independent tests show, it will burn longer than a non EPA stove.

Happy new year!

Jason

 

[bholler]

Please be patient, one thing I have learnt is that a new technology takes time to become known and gain acceptance. It will happen in time. I have to say that attitudes like that from bholler are not helpful and I have learnt to spend minimal time on those that want to know how it works before they will buy. Mainly because they never do, their own technical ability causing them to second guess me at every step. I have also learnt that the bulk of my customers don't want to know, or are incapable of knowing, how it works. What they do want to know is that it DOES work. A technical explanation is meaningless in this scenario, what they need is independent validation. Well if you look in my website you will find that, a letter of endorsement from a US Government Laboratory. I don't mean to insult you bholler, just pointing out how it is. I have been doing this for five winters in New Zealand now so have a feel for my customers.

I respect you and i can see from all of the test results there is promise in your design. But as a professional i cannot in good conscience sell a product without understanding how it works. And i have quite a few customers who could understand it and who would never buy one without knowing how it works. We have 3 colleges in our area with many of our customers being professors in various sciences and engineering fields. To say your customers could not understand it comes off as arrogant to me if they cant understand it i am not explaining it right. You have been doing it for 5 years i have been working on stoves full time for 15 years now and grew up working with my father in the field summers ect. He has been doing it 39 years now. I have seen lots of miracle devices all of which claimed to test very well come and prove ineffective. Yours obviously has testing from very reputable labs so I am not trying to lump you in with them but without some explanation of the tech i am still skeptical. But again I hope the best for you and your product.