#1 is variability in moisture content.
#2 User interface.
Is a catalyitic stove really more efficient since a cat looses its efficiency with age
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#2 User interface.
Thanks @BKVP . That chart is really interesting and informative. I think I've been trying to over simplify the whole thing.
I also totally get the point that @Nordicbynature made about the install and real life conditions being a major factor. Although I really do appreciate controlled testing. It may not necessarily reflect real life perfectly, but at least its a level ground to start on.
And who can argue with this:
#1 is variability is moisture content.
#2 User interface.
I was also thinking about how a non-cat stove could loose efficiency. The baffles and burn tubes seem like they would be a lot more durable than a cat, but then I came across information about gaskets going bad and other issues that can arise. So as pointed out, secondary burners are not immune to loss of efficiency either. A gasket is likely cheaper than a cat, but non-the-less, there would be maintenance and a loss of performance.
This has all been great feed back. Thanks guys.
I also totally get the point that @Nordicbynature made about the install and real life conditions being a major factor. Although I really do appreciate controlled testing. It may not necessarily reflect real life perfectly, but at least its a level ground to start on.
And who can argue with this:
#1 is variability is moisture content.
#2 User interface.
I was also thinking about how a non-cat stove could loose efficiency. The baffles and burn tubes seem like they would be a lot more durable than a cat, but then I came across information about gaskets going bad and other issues that can arise. So as pointed out, secondary burners are not immune to loss of efficiency either. A gasket is likely cheaper than a cat, but non-the-less, there would be maintenance and a loss of performance.
This has all been great feed back. Thanks guys.
As noted in my post, not all catalytic wood stoves are the same.....nor are all secondary combustion stoves.
BKVP
See for yourself, no marketing BS or trying to sell stoves with confusion. Lots of low efficiency low emissions stoves, it's all over the place. I personally switched from a low emissions low efficiency noncat to a high emissions (but barely legal) high efficiency cat stove. Since then, the current model princess has been able to attain excellent test scores for both. DO not make the mistake of equating emissions to efficiency, they are quite obviously different.
In the end, emissions don't really matter so long as it's legal to install and efficiency of a few percent one way or the other is also really no big deal. What's awesome is the ability to burn low and slow or hot and fast depending on your needs. Only a good cat stove can offer such burn rate control.
Enjoy the list. Use it to filter out reality from marketing BS. Ignore degradation in these numbers over the years because it is insignificant. You'll be swapping cats every so often anyway.
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Efficiency. Interesting statement. As I reheated my Thanksgiving leftovers on my Progress that has 3 devoted different temperature heating surfaces, I began to think about that. I did not turn on my electric stove nor do I many many times during the winter.
Well, I know a BTU is a BTU maybe I'm talking more about economic out of pocket efficiency.
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Plus your Progress is nice and efficient anyway. I’m eagerly awaiting mine.
It’s true about cooking. I cook a lot. Switched from propane stove to induction, and it’s a bit noticeable on the electric bill (and ditching the propane bill of course).
I wonder how much I’ll cook on the Progress when(if?) I get it. I’d be afraid of splattering all over the stove. I can imagine a carefully watched pot of pasta water, but I’m not sure what else I would dare.
It’s true about cooking. I cook a lot. Switched from propane stove to induction, and it’s a bit noticeable on the electric bill (and ditching the propane bill of course).
I wonder how much I’ll cook on the Progress when(if?) I get it. I’d be afraid of splattering all over the stove. I can imagine a carefully watched pot of pasta water, but I’m not sure what else I would dare.
That doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison. The non-cat is working it's butt off at max safe burn rate to heat up a cold workshop. Meanwhile, the cat stove is lazily working at low output. Swap the stove locations and the consumption results would also likely reverse.
Well, splattering is inevitable.
The stones flip up or lift off. So, in theory it is possible to keep the splattering off of the top of the stone. Me? I could put the stones in the next town over and still get splattering. Off season I mix a slurry of baking soda & water apply it to the splattered stone and leave it overnight. Rinse and scotchbrite for me does the trick. As far as pasta I never get a rolling boil, stick with your induction plate.
Not talking about the shop stove, I ran that hearthstone heritage in my house before the BK princess in my house. Same load, apples to apples. Remember? you were there. Dramatic reduction in wood consumption as is typical and was expected with the more efficient stove.
Yes, moved into a woodstove house (Oslo) where the owner went through 5 cords every year and the stove was stone cold in the morning.
Replaced it with a Progress and that winter went through half that amount of wood and the stove itself was always warm. Results might vary.
Yes, IIRC that stove had pretty consistently high flue temps around 800º in order to keep a decent stovetop temp. That's a lot of heat up the flue and not typical of all non-cat stoves. If I ran a steady 800º flue temp, the T6 stove top would be about the same temp. Our stove cruises with a 200º lower flue temp than the Heritage's 600-800º.
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Hi Highbeam - I'm wondering if you have a really tall chimney with a lot of draft. When I swapped out my tube stove (Lopi 1750) with a cat stove (Woodstock Keystone), the cat stove significantly controlled the burn (draft reduction through cat converter, I am guessing) better than the tube stove (very fast, nearly uncontrolled burn, even with a pipe damper). I can't compare wood consumption because one was with the house prior to finish and the other post move in, but the better draft control in the cat stove with a 27' vertical chimney was pretty dramatic, and this also means lower flue temperatures (though I haven't measured them in either case).
It's a one story chimney. The high flue temps for the Heritage were reported by some others too. At first I thought it was a case of a probe thermometer that was off, but multiple reports led me to think it was just that it took a hot fire to get the stones to radiate good heat.
Total stack height is just 12’ which is what the 2012 BK install manual required.
600-800 flue temperatures from a noncat are totally okay and fall right in the normal range of my condar flue probe meter. The hearthstone was a good stove but just not as efficient as a controllable BK.
That hearthstone worked great to keep us warm. No wood was wasted beyond what a properly burning noncat wastes up the stack. It was clean burning and looked really nice. It ran exactly as expected and advertised to keep us warm.
I think the 10,000-12,000 cat lifespan is old news. Cats have been improved with better wash coatings and should last longer with proper maintenance. I think I read 15,000 hours for a Woodstock steel cat. Brushing fly ash off every cord or so of wood and a 50/50 vinegar/distilled water soak once per year is a Woodstock recommendation.
Maybe. Maybe more marketing BS or more of people tolerating a dead cat and not caring how much it smokes or how much extra wood it burns. The one OEM steel cat I went through lasted much less hours than the ceramics and that includes a vinegar wash.
Good news is that you don't have to change your cat out on a schedule, wait until it dies. Just don't be surprised if that happens in 10,000. Be ready for it with another cat on hand. Heck, my current cat is over 2 years old now and still working as well as it did when it was new.
I honestly hope the technology improves so that these things really last longer. 15k, 20k, more hours would be a great thing.
Where do you source your ceramic cats?
Mine could certainly be more active...
Applied ceramics (a US company) makes the catalysts, midwest hearth is their retail outlet. You can get to midwest through amazon and have a new ceramic cat shipped, wrapped in gasket, ready to install for not much money. Applied Ceramics still makes BK ceramic catalysts as far as I know. Quality and performance has matched the BK OEM cat as far as I could tell. I have a fresh one on stand by as always but I wait until the old one dies. Fresh cats on the shelf have an infinite life on stand by.
Thanks for that!
All indications from trouble shooting in my manual point to my cat still being good, it just doesn't glow like it used to, I should definitely have a spare and some gasket in stock.
Do they? I did a little looking in the past and was under the impression that if they are stored somewhere with high humidity, the metals could start to corrode. Or also, somewhere with lots of chemicals in the air, could also cause corrosion. So while I agree, cats generally have an infinite life on the shelf. It seemed reasonable to me that some locations may not be good for storing a cat. But I expect those kinds of places are the exception, and not the location most of us would store a cat. Just sharing what I read somewhere. Not even sure where, so take it with a grain of salt.
Shelf life refers to properly stored, not buried outside in a hidey hole or something. When the thing comes to you it is well packaged. Put it on shelf somewhere safe, it will be ready for you.
Thats fair.
My research was done because I'll be putting spray foam in my basement and hanging drywall after the stove has been installed. So I was worried about the chemicals and dust from construction. In my case, I think I'll pull the cat or wrap the stove in poly when work begins. Just to be safe.
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