Is a wood furnace the answer? Tri-level home issues.

[mgh-pa]

Alright, I said I would give this third winter in this home a shot to see how my woodstove in the basement works out, and with our first real cold snap underway this year in PA, I still have some concerns.

First, a little overview/history. We purchased this tri-level home three years ago. It's 2100 sq.ft of finished living space. The basement is unfinished. The kitchen/great room/gym is ~900+ sq.ft and all open. Directly below it is my unfinished basement (only ~600 sq. ft as the back section is framed and insulated crawl space isolated from the main basement where the stairs enter). Our family room is the lowest finished level half below grade (gas fireplace in there), and of course three bedrooms and two bathrooms on the upper level. Here's a floor plan:

Ignore the "family room" label as that is all part of the kitchen. The family room is actually and open floor plan below the bedroom level. The woodstove and register locations as identified on this diagram are accurate (the stove is in the basement in that location), but the cold air returns are no longer there (since that area is crawl space under the main level and insulated off.

Obviously I'm having issues keeping this house comfortable on all levels with the woodstove in the basement. I know the lower level family room is a wash (which is why we remodeled it two years ago and put in a new Regency gas fireplace), but the upstairs and kitchen level doesn't hold much about 68 in single digits, and the upstairs in the mid 50s (that's with me burning a good hot fire in the basement). I'm really leaning toward two options at the moment.

One, would be to purchase a wood furnace, replace the existing woodstove, and have duct work installed into the main kitchen level (no existing duct work in the house, and the layout prohibits duct work being run to the upstairs without major overhaul). This would hopefully keep the main level much warmer (say 74 or 75) and in turn, cause more warmth to funnel upstairs to the bedrooms (we like it cooler up there).

The other option (much more pricey) is to do a three zone and one zone ductless heat pump system put in (already given quotes). One 24,000 btu unit in the kitchen, then a three-zone system that hits the two main bedrooms, and the lower family room level. The advantage to this system is that it also provides cooling, and it's a true zone system hitting the hard to reach spots in the house.

Thoughts?

Any optio

 

[rkusek]

My first home was similar. 750 main floor open kitchen,dining, family room. 750 unfinished basement. 750 second level with 3 bedrooms. The second level had finished space over the garage that added an additional 250 sq ft or so but it was too hot in summer and too cold in winter to be useful. The house was new in 03 with hi-efficiency gas forced air and ac ducted system. We lived their 4 yrs and always had problems balancing heat in winter and I wasn't even trying to heat the basement for living space. If you go with ducts you will want to put in the zoned type with motorized hampers. The minisplit might be the best choice and give you cooling too. Keep the wood stove to supplement. Some people have good luck with those infrared room heaters ($500) that aren't real cheap but probably cheaper than what you are looking at and give you great temperature control. With your wood stove this may be the cheapest option if cooling is not a problem. How are the bedrooms in summer?

 

[willworkforwood]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see mention of ANY existing (and operational) conventional distribution system. It sounds like there was FHA on the first floor (not working now), and no heat distribution system on the second floor - is that correct? If there really is nothing now, then could FHW piping be done, or is that just as problematic as ductwork? If you could run FHW piping (PEX/copper), then hydronic heating with a wood (hopefully gasification) boiler would be another option for you. This boiler could directly replace your stove in the basement, or could be located in an outbuilding. Not an inexpensive solution, but maybe competitive in cost to the heat pump. It wouldn't take care of AC, but could easily handle all of your DHW needs along with heating the entire house comfortably.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see mention of ANY existing (and operational) conventional distribution system. It sounds like there was FHA on the first floor (not working now), and no heat distribution system on the second floor - is that correct? If there really is nothing now, then could FHW piping be done, or is that just as problematic as ductwork? If you could run FHW piping (PEX/copper), then hydronic heating with a wood (hopefully gasification) boiler would be another option for you. This boiler could directly replace your stove in the basement, or could be located in an outbuilding. Not an inexpensive solution, but maybe competitive in cost to the heat pump. It wouldn't take care of AC, but could easily handle all of your DHW needs along with heating the entire house comfortably.

+1 on the boiler. Thats a boilers forte, to heat hard to heat structures like this, Randy

 

[mgh-pa]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see mention of ANY existing (and operational) conventional distribution system. It sounds like there was FHA on the first floor (not working now), and no heat distribution system on the second floor - is that correct? If there really is nothing now, then could FHW piping be done, or is that just as problematic as ductwork? If you could run FHW piping (PEX/copper), then hydronic heating with a wood (hopefully gasification) boiler would be another option for you. This boiler could directly replace your stove in the basement, or could be located in an outbuilding. Not an inexpensive solution, but maybe competitive in cost to the heat pump. It wouldn't take care of AC, but could easily handle all of your DHW needs along with heating the entire house comfortably.

Nope, these were open registers and returns to circulate the heat from the woodstove via natural convection. Since the cold air return section of the basement is closed off, the stairway into the basement now acts as the cold air return. The problem with this, is while it works somewhat, on REALLY cold days, I'm just wasting so much heat heating up the basement and heat being absorbed by the block walls.

There is no FHA system in the house, nor has there ever been. Just electric baseboard. Hence my predicament of placing ductwork (almost impossible given the layout of the house to be able to run ductwork to all rooms).

I was quoted between $8000-$12000 by various contractors for a 4 zone ductless system that would essentially only leave the bathrooms and our office (the smallest bedroom upstairs) untouched. Pricey, though, and I love heating with wood (it's free, and only 1.5 miles away), but I'm realizing it just may not be doable as a primary heat source given my home's layout.

 

[Gasifier]

Another +1 on the boiler fort. But, it will cost you more money. If you don't have or don't want to spend that kind of money, a forced air wood furncace would be cheaper. It would not take that much to run one heat duct up into the 3rd floor hallway. You probably don't need them in every bedroom. Slice open a sheetrock wall, send a flexible duct up through to a register, and close a wall back up. Then if you are like me and don't like to mud sheetrock , find a friend or contractor to patch it up for you. But, like the other guys said, a boiler would be nice even heat.

Are you planning on being in this house for a while? A Wood Gassification boiler is where it is at. Especially if you can get wood free, or cheap. You will save your money back and have a quicker return. Then you have nice even heat throughout the home. Either way, as you know with the wood stove, heating with wood is nice. With the right forced air wood furnace, or better yet, the right wood gassification boiler, you will heat that house no problem and have much longer burn times. I heated my multi-level house with a wood stove in the basement for six years. Longer burn times was one of my big things when choosing my boiler. I wanted a large wood chamber so I would be sure to get at least 7 hours burn time even when it was cold. And it is working out nicely. Keep us posted on what you are thinking and what you decide. Later.

 

[bluedogz]

With some slight differences, your layout and size are very much like my house. My old smoke dragon is on the first floor, and doesn't have much problem getting the first floor to 75 and keeping it there. Bedrooms on the 2d floor are comfortable but slightly cooler.

Seems to me that, if heat is the main goal, and the basement isn't destined to be usable space, a high-grade stove on the 1st floow might be a less expensive way to go. Of course, you wouldn't get A/C, but you wouldn't spend $12k either.

 

[maple1]

I would much rather run pipes than ducts, especially in a retro fit situation. Pex helps a lot there.

That means hot water rather than hot air.

Moving from that, if you get around to adding things up with any kind of accuracy, I think you will find that a mini split system will not cost that much more than a new hot water furnace system - I'd even guess it might cost less. And give you AC to boot. There are a lot of mini-splits being installed these days, and I think with good reason. And even if you were to consider a hot air furnace, I think by the time you factor in the duct work cost, and labour to get it all in, you might be ahead with mini-splits.

How about just simply adding another wood stove on an upper level?

EDIT: Dang, everyone is piling on this one all at once...

 

[mgh-pa]

I would much rather run pipes than ducts, especially in a retro fit situation. Pex helps a lot there.

That means hot water rather than hot air.

Moving from that, if you get around to adding things up with any kind of accuracy, I think you will find that a mini split system will not cost that much more than a new hot water furnace system - I'd even guess it might cost less. And give you AC to boot. There are a lot of mini-splits being installed these days, and I think with good reason. And even if you were to consider a hot air furnace, I think by the time you factor in the duct work cost, and labour to get it all in, you might be ahead with mini-splits.

How about just simply adding another wood stove on an upper level?

EDIT: Dang, everyone is piling on this one all at once...

Yeah, lots of suggestions rolling in I'm not really sure how long I will be at this place to tell you the truth which is what makes this decision so difficult. We had considered moving the woodstove to the main floor, but we don't want to deal with dust and dirt in our kitchen, counter tops, and along our hardwood floors. How much does a boiler system run? Comparatively speaking, if it's close to the mini-splits, I would probably be better off with the mini-split system, and continue supplementing with wood.

 

[Gasifier]

If you consider another stove and don't want the mess, a pellet stove may be the answer for your main floor. Not as cheap fuel as wood, but less work, no mess. And no extra chimney to install for it. Vent it right out the wall. Long burn times with that too. Another wood stove equals another chimney. A couple of my brothers have pellet stoves and love them. A nice wood gassification boiler system can be anywhere from $7000.00 on up too....... A lot depends on how much you can do of it yourself. But if you are not going to be in the house long, not worth it. Several options.

 

[maple1]

Gasification boilers start around the mid-$5k mark, I think. Double that for installation, parts etc.. Add on half that for storage. Since you have no radiation to start with, might as well do another 1.5 factor.

Talking very roughly of course - but I think you would be very hard pressed to meet the mini-split estimates with a furnace & distribution system of any kind.

Since short term is now in the picture, I'd go wood stove or pellets as Gasifier mentioned. You can take those with you when you leave, although you'll have to leave the chimney behind. And as said, pellet stoves are much easier to vent - but require electricity, and I don't think anyone has found free ones yet.

 

[bpirger]

Wood stove is likely the cheapest. Do you have a door in the open area were you'd likely want to put it? That would assure easy wood access and help minimize the mess. No doubt there is mess....though I don't think you'd have to worry about dust and ash in your kitchen. My Lopi Liberty is open to the kitchen completely and 25' away....and I can't say we had any dust/ash in the kitchen area from the woodstove.

 

[JustWood]

I have a tri level and with a small undersized stove for shoulder season and backup heat and a FA furnace for my main mid winter heat. When running the small stove air flow is a huge issue.
I would start by placing a fan in the stairwell between level 2 and 3 blowing air back towards the stove. If its just a matter of raising the temp 5 degrees in that area (level 3) of the house , I think this may solve your problem. If it doesn't try different scenarios.
Is there a stairwell between leve l1 and 2?

 

[mgh-pa]

Wood stove is likely the cheapest. Do you have a door in the open area were you'd likely want to put it? That would assure easy wood access and help minimize the mess. No doubt there is mess....though I don't think you'd have to worry about dust and ash in your kitchen. My Lopi Liberty is open to the kitchen completely and 25' away....and I can't say we had any dust/ash in the kitchen area from the woodstove.

Well the most likely place would be in the same spot the stove is at now, but on the 1st floor in the corner of the kitchen so I could just run a new chimney up where the old one used to be. Not really close to a door (maybe 20 ft).

The stairs are all centrally located. Where the stairs are drawn on that diagram is where the stairs going to the basement, the lower family room, and the upstairs are all located.

A Pellet stove isn't a bad idea if I can find a good source for pellets that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. Just hurts knowing that I do have free wood...

 

[maple1]

How hot does it get where the stove is? If there seems to be lots of heat there, and you just can't get it distributed, I'd first try the fans as suggested above. You want to put them down low and blow towards the stove, generally speaking. Lots of info on that in the stove section.

 

[mgh-pa]

How hot does it get where the stove is? If there seems to be lots of heat there, and you just can't get it distributed, I'd first try the fans as suggested above. You want to put them down low and blow towards the stove, generally speaking. Lots of info on that in the stove section.

It's usually around 72-77 in the basement with the stove. Usually about a 10 degree difference between downstairs and the first floor.

 

[bpirger]

So what about mounting a "huge" fan in the basement below the register blowing up? I'm thinking one of those large "flood drying fans" or similar, like with a squirrel cage and all. If you want to keep the fire/mess downstairs (understandable) but get the heat up, then the air has to move. This would also give you an idea of how warm you might be able to get the upstairs area if you had a stove in the family room upstairs.

My place is 2500'...downstairs is 1400' with 10' ceilings. I'm building it myself....so second floor Ijoists are all still wide open. I have a 16x20 open area to upstairs, but there is STILL a temporary floor over the majority of this, waiting for me to hang tongue and groove pin on the ceiling upstairs (using the temporary floor....isntalled in 2002...ahem). Upstairs is about 1100 sq ft of floor space then. Downstairs is all open....upstairs is rather open.

I heated for 7 years with a Lopi Liberty stove downstairs. When it was in 10-20's outside, inside could be 78 or more downstairs at 4' high, upstairs was low 70's. I think up in the Ijoist I was essentially getting some radiant heat upstairs! (I sure don't get that now heating my radiant downstairs with the boiler....it was 59 upstairs this morning! Nippy...until the feet heat the warm concrete downstairs!) Anyways, the Lopi would blow us out of here....

How's your wood? Is it dry? Are you getting good hot heat in the stove downstairs? Any insulation in the basement? Is the floor insulated between the basement and upper level?

 

[mgh-pa]

So what about mounting a "huge" fan in the basement below the register blowing up? I'm thinking one of those large "flood drying fans" or similar, like with a squirrel cage and all. If you want to keep the fire/mess downstairs (understandable) but get the heat up, then the air has to move. This would also give you an idea of how warm you might be able to get the upstairs area if you had a stove in the family room upstairs.

My place is 2500'...downstairs is 1400' with 10' ceilings. I'm building it myself....so second floor Ijoists are all still wide open. I have a 16x20 open area to upstairs, but there is STILL a temporary floor over the majority of this, waiting for me to hang tongue and groove pin on the ceiling upstairs (using the temporary floor....isntalled in 2002...ahem). Upstairs is about 1100 sq ft of floor space then. Downstairs is all open....upstairs is rather open.

I heated for 7 years with a Lopi Liberty stove downstairs. When it was in 10-20's outside, inside could be 78 or more downstairs at 4' high, upstairs was low 70's. I think up in the Ijoist I was essentially getting some radiant heat upstairs! (I sure don't get that now heating my radiant downstairs with the boiler....it was 59 upstairs this morning! Nippy...until the feet heat the warm concrete downstairs!) Anyways, the Lopi would blow us out of here....

How's your wood? Is it dry? Are you getting good hot heat in the stove downstairs? Any insulation in the basement? Is the floor insulated between the basement and upper level?

My wood is mostly Oak and Cherry this year with some maple mixed in. Most was standing dead when we cut and split it last December/January (stacked and drying since then), but the higher moisture content stuff is at the back of my pile so if I get to it this year, it will be late.

Like I said, it can get to be about upper 70s in the basement with the fire roaring. When outside temps are in the 20s, the upstairs stays in the upper 60s. When the temps dipped down to the single digits like they did two nights ago, the basement can stay upper 70s with the fire cooking, but the upstairs doesn't hold the heat as well.

The floor between the basement and main floor has R-13 fiberglass batting, and MDF on top (I didn't install it, the previous home owner did).

I did try mounting a duct fan (500cfm) into the main register and blowing up, and tried it off and on for a few days two weeks ago, but it really didn't seem to make any difference and upstairs temp (there's actually a post I made about it in the woodstove section of the site). The basement is unfinished block wall, with two of the three exterior walls being insulated on the outside with 2" Styrofoam insulation. The third wall hasn't been insulated yet, and all three are 1/2-3/4 below grade.

 

[rkusek]

I would much rather run pipes than ducts, especially in a retro fit situation. Pex helps a lot there.

That means hot water rather than hot air.

Moving from that, if you get around to adding things up with any kind of accuracy, I think you will find that a mini split system will not cost that much more than a new hot water furnace system - I'd even guess it might cost less. And give you AC to boot. There are a lot of mini-splits being installed these days, and I think with good reason. And even if you were to consider a hot air furnace, I think by the time you factor in the duct work cost, and labour to get it all in, you might be ahead with mini-splits.

How about just simply adding another wood stove on an upper level?

EDIT: Dang, everyone is piling on this one all at once...

Yeah, lots of suggestions rolling in I'm not really sure how long I will be at this place to tell you the truth which is what makes this decision so difficult. We had considered moving the woodstove to the main floor, but we don't want to deal with dust and dirt in our kitchen, counter tops, and along our hardwood floors. How much does a boiler system run? Comparatively speaking, if it's close to the mini-splits, I would probably be better off with the mini-split system, and continue supplementing with wood.

Like I mentioned earlier my first home built in 03 was similar to yours but had ducts with gas furnace and a/c and was still difficult to heat and cool with the different levels and that room over the garage. That is why my second (and final) home is a walkout ranch which has eliminated all those issues. Assuming you need cooling, the mini-split option for $8-10k would probably be your best option IMHO if you plan to stay awhile. You can still supplement with the wood stove which will reduce electric costs and if you can find a way to improve the heat transfer it may work better. I'm no expert but I wonder if you glued some insulation to the basement walls if would help send more of the wood heat upstairs. Even the cheap beadboard might help but the pink or blue would be better. I think they say cold basement, cold house. Are the ends of your floor joists insulate in the basement now? You could get a wood gassification boiler for about $5500 but even you did the work yourself it's going to be in the 10-15k range by the time you add the heating units in each room and then you would still not have any cooling.

 

[maple1]

Yes, exposed basement walls can be a big heat sink.

In this case, I think I'd work from cheaper to more expensive. Which would mean fans to increase air movement (concentrate on moving the lower colder air toward the stove, rather than moving the higher warmer air away from it - using larger 'lazier' fans), then maybe insulation on exposed walls (since that will bring an improvement no matter what else ends up being done). Then go from there. Given you have free wood, I would lean towards a second stove higher up than the current one - they can be pretty un-messy with good wood handling/storage and maintenance practices, and might not require that much wood use to make a good difference.

 

[mgh-pa]

Since I've never paid to have duct work done (or installed lines myself), I wonder if it would be pricey if I was looking at running two lines from the basement with a wood furnace? One straight up from the furnace (about 10ft total run), and another to the other side of the kitchen/great room? I would think that would keep temps in the main floor very cozy, and temps upstairs livable. Then again, the Englander furnace isn't EPA rated, so would I may have to look elsewhere are more $$ furnace units). Might be cheaper than dropping $8000+ on ductless. I would jump on the ductless in a heartbeat if I knew I would be in this house forever, but as it stands, at that price point, it would take at least 6 years to hit a break even point.

 

[Jags]

Probably the cheapest route is gonna be a second stove on the second level. You can get it setup and running without big work, still use your cord wood and create the heat where you need it to be. (or move your stove from the basement to the main living area). Just one dudes opinion.