Is our EPA short-sighted WRT appliance requirements?
- Thread starter Ashful
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
"Our old 1961 Frigidaire used about the same amount of power as the 2009 Whirlpool that replaced it"
So it is as energy hogging as old ones , but breaks down as quick as other modern ones (that use a lot less energy)?
So it is as energy hogging as old ones , but breaks down as quick as other modern ones (that use a lot less energy)?
Frigidaire was the old one...the Whirlpool was the new one, that used same power as old one, and then died right away.
I guess my thought was that the old Frigidaire was actually not that much of an energy hog...I would have just kept it if I knew what I knew about the Whirlpool a year later...only thing it needed was maybe a door gasket.
Yeah, I don't think so. The technology has improved a lot in energy efficiency (even if not keeping longevity necessarily the same) since the 60s. No way a good 60s fridge can match up to a good 2000s one.
I've lived in this home for 30 years, the used refrigerator (2 yo) that came with the home lasted us almost 20 years, the replacement lasted 10. Every time we replaced the refrigerator the company we purchased from carried it away. The recycling should be placed on them, but for all I know they could have dropped it on the side of the road. Is there any regulations on that? Both of them had their freon still in them.
Next road over from me has a scrap metal yard, no signs of freon recovery when I've gone there. Passed by the other night, gates locked and a fire burning in a large barrel I assume was some method of cleaning something. I live in a rural area in a state that boasts about no regulations and freedom, EPA isn't very present.
Next road over from me has a scrap metal yard, no signs of freon recovery when I've gone there. Passed by the other night, gates locked and a fire burning in a large barrel I assume was some method of cleaning something. I live in a rural area in a state that boasts about no regulations and freedom, EPA isn't very present.
Compressor and control technology, but also changes in insulation and sealing. That made a big difference around the 1990s. The Energy Star rating system helped push development and successes.
I noticed on our latest fridge, an approximately 8-year-old Samsung, that the electric defrosting system that was troublesome on many older fridges, has been replaced with a defrosting system that uses heat from the high-side refrigerant line coming off the compressor.
To bring an oldie back to life, in the last two months we had two appliances die.
One was our range (electric) and one our dishwasher. Both were new in 2017. Not great quality (house flipped then and I fixed a lot of low quality mistakes...). So 8.5 years.
We joked initially that they'd all go bad at the same time.
So far that seems correct...
The microwave has its door interruption switch bad (known; don't open the door while it's still running as you'll get sparks on that - tried to tell the family, but "it works fine, see?") but seems otherwise fine.
The fridge is what worries me next.
Our washer was new Feb. 2018, Maytag, so that should hopefully last a bit longer.
The good thing is that we upgraded from an electric range to an induction range. (We have been missing our gas cooking in the US that was all we knew in Europe - and the electric cooking is just so sluggish.) Induction is fantastic. Better than gas (no water produced, and whatever else gas cooking may dump in my home). Safer too imo.
And the dishwasher we bought is a LOT quieter now (dang house flippers with their cheap=noisy appliances).
One was our range (electric) and one our dishwasher. Both were new in 2017. Not great quality (house flipped then and I fixed a lot of low quality mistakes...). So 8.5 years.
We joked initially that they'd all go bad at the same time.
So far that seems correct...
The microwave has its door interruption switch bad (known; don't open the door while it's still running as you'll get sparks on that - tried to tell the family, but "it works fine, see?") but seems otherwise fine.
The fridge is what worries me next.
Our washer was new Feb. 2018, Maytag, so that should hopefully last a bit longer.
The good thing is that we upgraded from an electric range to an induction range. (We have been missing our gas cooking in the US that was all we knew in Europe - and the electric cooking is just so sluggish.) Induction is fantastic. Better than gas (no water produced, and whatever else gas cooking may dump in my home). Safer too imo.
And the dishwasher we bought is a LOT quieter now (dang house flippers with their cheap=noisy appliances).
Whitenuckler
Minister of Fire
It's hit and miss with these large appliances. I worry more about my heat pumps. They are 5k to replace. I have whole home protection in the panel x 2. One someone else installed when they put the 200A panel in. When I moved in I put a good one in. As for microwave switches, I have many in my toolbox. They are the first thing to fail. I never use my microwave, but it's there if I have a power outage.
I open the door to the microwave on a regular basis while it is running and haven't had any issues with the 2014 over-the-stove model that I installed myself.
I've had two portable dishwashers since I moved here in late 2013. Constantly being moved around on a tile floor with wide grout lines probably doesn't help out on longevity. The first one lasted 7 years (2013-2020), but was a cheap Koldfront. The Farberware that I have now has been going for nearly 6 years without any issues and I'd hope for many more years, but I'm thinking of redoing part of my kitchen and putting in a small, under counter dishwasher. I'll probably think about that for several years before actually doing anything though - LOL..
Samsung washer and electric drier are still going strong (bought new late 2013).
I worry about the fridge more than anything because it is a 2010 model, IIRC, that was here when I bought the house.
Given the impending holiday weekend, I ofc had my dishwasher fail. It was a cheapo model put in by the previous owner right before he sold.
In 2005.
Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical that I want to blame the EPA for short lived appliances.
On the one hand, cheap appliances are going to fail, and sometimes expensive appliances are just rebadged cheap appliances. Both are features of capitalism.
On the other hand, both the 'ozone hole crisis' and the 'climate crisis' were identified and solutions developed before the science was completely understood. And it turns out the solution to the ozone problem (HCFCs) was worse from a climate standpoint. So we had to change refrigerants 2X at the same time that we are trying to (1) improve refrigerator efficiency, which was dreadful in the 20th century (2) go to HVAC heat pumps and (3) go to HPWHs. From a policy standpoint, this was a car wreck.
I've been thinking a bit about how incumbent industries tend to find either half solutions or false solutions to problems. For example, switching to drop in HCFCs rather than CFCs. Easy, cheap, and not a real solution (in hindsight, exchanging one gas with a long life in the atmosphere for another).
Other half/false solutions would include: biofuels instead of fossil fuels. hybrid ICE cars (including mild hybrids) instead of conventional ICE cars. Burning natural gas instead of coal for power generation (with methane leaks, the short term gains are small).
So while we are griping about crappy refrigerators, we can add ethanol in our gas killing small engines, the start/stop features of many modern ICE cars, and the expensive power in New England due to LNG!
When industries pick short sighted (decadal) solutions to major problems... they don't have a good track record. And ofc, these same incumbents are often aware that the half solution is not great... but it will make them more money. See power companies pushing nat gas as a climate solution and then trying to keep rooftop solar and wind power out. Or Toyota being anti BEV and keeping them out of Japan (BEV adoption there is less than half what it is in the US) to sell more 'self charging EVs', i.e. hybrids. And the corn ethanol lobby managing to get lots of $$$ to put another 40% of US farmland under the plow (!!) that would otherwise be fallow, for little or no climate gain!
Lots of blame to go around, not just poor Al Gore and his energy eff appliance push 30 years ago.
In 2005.
Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical that I want to blame the EPA for short lived appliances.
On the one hand, cheap appliances are going to fail, and sometimes expensive appliances are just rebadged cheap appliances. Both are features of capitalism.
On the other hand, both the 'ozone hole crisis' and the 'climate crisis' were identified and solutions developed before the science was completely understood. And it turns out the solution to the ozone problem (HCFCs) was worse from a climate standpoint. So we had to change refrigerants 2X at the same time that we are trying to (1) improve refrigerator efficiency, which was dreadful in the 20th century (2) go to HVAC heat pumps and (3) go to HPWHs. From a policy standpoint, this was a car wreck.
I've been thinking a bit about how incumbent industries tend to find either half solutions or false solutions to problems. For example, switching to drop in HCFCs rather than CFCs. Easy, cheap, and not a real solution (in hindsight, exchanging one gas with a long life in the atmosphere for another).
Other half/false solutions would include: biofuels instead of fossil fuels. hybrid ICE cars (including mild hybrids) instead of conventional ICE cars. Burning natural gas instead of coal for power generation (with methane leaks, the short term gains are small).
So while we are griping about crappy refrigerators, we can add ethanol in our gas killing small engines, the start/stop features of many modern ICE cars, and the expensive power in New England due to LNG!
When industries pick short sighted (decadal) solutions to major problems... they don't have a good track record. And ofc, these same incumbents are often aware that the half solution is not great... but it will make them more money. See power companies pushing nat gas as a climate solution and then trying to keep rooftop solar and wind power out. Or Toyota being anti BEV and keeping them out of Japan (BEV adoption there is less than half what it is in the US) to sell more 'self charging EVs', i.e. hybrids. And the corn ethanol lobby managing to get lots of $$$ to put another 40% of US farmland under the plow (!!) that would otherwise be fallow, for little or no climate gain!
Lots of blame to go around, not just poor Al Gore and his energy eff appliance push 30 years ago.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
My Bosh dishwasher cost me $1000 pre covid. I had a relay for the heater on the main board fail. I think a new board was $130. We wash A LOT of dishes. Any time appliances fail at the same time I’m wondering if there was a common electrical issue. A like terminal block on my oven cord melted arced and took out my water heater board.
They failed within half a year. Unlikely to be a power issue imo.
The electric range didnt have much microelectronics that can fry anyway.
They are Frigidaire. So as I said we had expected this to happen a bit. For $$ planning purposes I hope the fridge lasts two more years.
The electric range didnt have much microelectronics that can fry anyway.
They are Frigidaire. So as I said we had expected this to happen a bit. For $$ planning purposes I hope the fridge lasts two more years.
My Frigidaire stove and fridge have been working problem free for about 15 years. The microwave door is starting to sag, but has been going strong for at least 12.
I really think appliances do worse the more complicated they are. Options fail, chasing the greatest efficiency involves compromising durability.
I really think appliances do worse the more complicated they are. Options fail, chasing the greatest efficiency involves compromising durability.
The microwave is fine, it's just that the interruption switch sticks now due to the sparking of opening the door while it's still running (as it's an interruption of the full power load - as a result it trips the breaker when you open the door while it's running. And this is a well-known issue; many mentions online). Not replacing it for that. Just stop the thing before opening.
I hope that my dishwasher and the range were exceptions to your rule then
Similar threads
- Poll
