Is our EPA short-sighted WRT appliance requirements?

[Ashful]

Just replaced our primary kitchen refrigerator... again. This unit was a scant 25 months old when it died. It had a 12 month warranty, which I remember noting with displeasure at time of purchase, but it was literally the only unit locally stocked at the time, when our prior refrigerator had also died without notice. Twelve years in this house, and we are on our fourth kitchen refrigerator, whereas my mother still has and uses the refrigerator she bought for my childhood home more than 40 years ago.

In shopping for replacements, I found the same thing again, nothing in stock locally from any brand in any store, with a warranty longer than 12 months. Seems ridiculous that even the manufacturer has such low confidence in their product, to cut the warranty so short, but it's a clear example that people are not making their purchase decision on warranty nearly as much as up-front cost. In fact, it's not even easy to find the warranty info on most brand / store sites.

In talking with refrigeration specialists (related to my business), appliance repair people, and even salespeople in the appliance stores, it seems my recent experience is fairly common. The story I've gotten more than once is that at least one (if not "the") primary failure mechanism is the very low volume of refrigerant which these new refrigerators are allowed to carry, per EPA mandate. Decisions with regard to system design, and even the miniscule amount of refrigerant that can be lost prior to a catastrophic compressor failure, are both impacted by reductions in the total refrigerant load. This is a particular problem for those keeping a second refrigerator in an unconditioned space (eg, we have four collegiate-sized units in our garage), as these modern "low charge" refrigerators are more prone to failure in temperature extremes.

In any case, WRT this kitchen refrigerator, I'm not convinced that placing three kitchen refrigerators into a landfill is preferable to building refrigerators with a bit more refrigerant in them. I'd gladly pay 2x or 3x more up-front, for a refrigerator that will last me 15 -20 years, versus this frustrating cycle of replacing them every 2 - 6 years. As much as it flies in the face of my beloved free market, since the EPA has already stomped on that system, I wouldn't mind seeing a law requiring at least a 10 year warranty on all major home appliances. I think this would go a long way toward forcing design decisions that would ultimately reduce waste.

I'm finding that refrigerators are available with longer warranties, but if they're not available from stock when your current refrigerator dies, they're about as useless as tits on a bull. Most people don't have the luxury of waiting several weeks to receive their new refrigerator.

 

[EbS-P]

My 30 seconds of search charge requirements for house hood refrigerators did not trails any useful info. Do you have any regulations/rules for me to read?

I would think a good home warranty might be worth purchasing.

What’s an appliance extra warranty 3 years???? What is Costco charging?

 

[Ashful]

Extended warranties are available, usually serviced by third party to both store and manufacturer. But as an engineer who has spent their career designing commercial equipment, where warranty period is forever factoring into MTBF economics, I see the manufacturer’s warranty as having an impact on actual MTTF. Expecting any mass participation in extended warranties to do the same is like trying to drive by the rear-view mirror.

I can easily afford a new refrigerator every year, cost is not the issue, it’s the inconvenience, interruption, and frankly my thoughts of landfills full of refrigerators driving this post. So, I’ll not be participating in any extended warranty purchase game, calculated on averages to cost me more than they save.

 

[brenndatomu]

I agree, putting all this "EPA approved" elcheapo crap in the landfill regularly, all the while claiming we are killing the world if we don't jump right in line with the greenies latest pet agenda is false economy for the environment for sure!
I'd be willing to pay more, but not double or triple....the thing is that the money they save on "cheaping up" the parts is minimal, compared to sticking with components that would have half a chance at having a reasonable life span. I find it difficult to believe that the cost to use a better compressor, a lil more freon, and a lil better control board(s) would add up to more than $50-100...double that cost so everybody gets some profit and yeah, I'd pay maybe $200 more for a fridge with a 3-5 year warranty! Heck, lets get crazy and add another $2-300 to it and make it a 10 yr!
You mention your moms fridge...I was at my parents place a couple weeks ago and I noticed the big chest freezer out in the garage (unconditioned uninsulated space) is the same one that was there as a kid! That thing is at least 50 YO!
My inlaws had an appliance guy out to look at their 5 YO Frigidaire side x side fridge/freezer just yesterday...the guy said he had been doing this work for 40 years now...he also told them the reason that their fridge and freezer was suddenly not staying cold was that that there must be a leak and it's now low on freon...needed a new compressor and a recharge, but he doesn't do that anymore.
The whole thing smelled a little funny to me when I found out that the only thing he did to it was to defrost the coil...hmmm.
So I went over to look at it last night and when I pulled the front cover off the whole coil was covered in about an inch of dust bunny/pug hair...I vac'd things up and it seemed to be off to the races when plugged back in...they said they didn't think it had been cleaned before...I guess 5 years without a cleaning is a pretty good run! Haven't heard yet about the results...I bet its fine though.

 

[Ashful]

My outsider’s guess, as an engineer who’s had to make similar decisions, is that the EPA requirements to reduce the amount of refrigerant augmented the cost/reliability curve. With the usual superstition (or even marketing mandates) against raising price, it’s very likely engineering was left with sacrificing MTTF as the only available option.

Everyone has seen the, “cheap, quick, good: pick any two” signs. This isn’t that different.

 

[tlc1976]

Awhile back I posted about dehumidifiers and extra warranty. 5.5 years later still running good. The warranty paid for itself many times over in my case, even if the thing quits tomorrow.

Post in thread 'Dehumidifiers'
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/dehumidifiers.198962/post-2671412

As far as fridges, I guess that explains why they don’t last like they used to. In my old house, the original was from 92. It made all sorts of noises but always ran. Around 2012, I picked up one from across the road that was bigger and nicer. It was 4 years old and had failed. I planned to turn it in for scrap, but after some testing, the defrost heater was the culprit. After 4 years you couldn’t get one anymore. But I found one of the same dimensions off eBay, and soldered the original ends on it. Good as new. It worked at least until I sold the house 4 years later. However it was replaced when the house was relisted for sale a few years later, so who knows.

During that time I also picked up a 3 year old fridge from just down the road. Compressor failed already. Scrap. I don’t get how they can get away with building such garbage these days.

I haven’t looked into what a fridge with a real warranty costs these days, if you can even get one. But I would do it, and hope for the best. It’s not just the fridge that costs you. It’s the potential of hundreds of dollars of spoiled food and the time to deal with it. It’s having to haul the old one out and the new one in. Even if the store offers the service for free, I gotta miss a day of work over it. Some houses like my buddy’s dad’s house, the door casing had to be torn out of the wall to get the fridge through, even with the fridge door removed. My old house was like that for the laundry room.

My current 2013 fridge at the new house makes all sorts of noises, but knock on wood it keeps going.

Freon charges is about the only thing I can’t do myself. As far as other appliances, I go for old school stuff and just replace simple cheap parts forever. My washer and dryer are 20 years old give or take. Back when pretty much everyone used the same wear parts.

From what the OP said, I don’t agree with the underlined part. I think purchasing decisions are based on what is actually available. Most people can’t wait around for a fridge. If stores stocked a longer lasting product, even for a higher price, I think that would sell out first provided people can afford it. But in any case a fridge is a major expense. Nobody wants to deal with the hassle any more than needed, especially when it’s fresh in their mind. But stores and manufacturers profit more selling quantity over quality, and if the market is controlled to where only junk is stocked, then what do you do?

In shopping for replacements, I found the same thing again, nothing in stock locally from any brand in any store, with a warranty longer than 12 months. Seems ridiculous that even the manufacturer has such low confidence in their product, to cut the warranty so short, but it's a clear example that people are not making their purchase decision on warranty nearly as much as up-front cost. In fact, it's not even easy to find the warranty info on most brand / store sites.

 

[woodgeek]

Refrigerator changes are not just due to energy efficiency, which has gotten worse over the last 10 years.

Its about phasing out refrigerants in stages to save the ozone layer.

Blame the Montreal treaty, and its follow ons, not the EPA. My 2 year old fridge uses propane as the refrigerant, and it is louder and uses more energy than the 2005 unit it replaced. And I am 100% OK with that.

On the bright side, we still have an ozone layer.

 

[ABMax24]

LG Refrigerators have 7 year warranty on the sealed systems and 10 years on the compressor.

My LG is 6.5 years old, with the linear compressor that was the cause of a class action lawsuit due to poor reliability. It's still going strong, and the compressor still has 3.5 years of warranty left.

I do agree that it's about time that manufacturers are forced to stand behind their products for an extended period of time, the EPA has already forced this in regards to automotive emissions equipment. I don't see in this day and age why cellphones and computers can't last at least 5 years, or at least have parts like batteries available for replacement during that time period. I think 10 years should be the minimum on any home appliance.

As to refrigerants, I'm not sure why the insistence on the continued us of regulated refrigerants like R134a or R410a when other more environmentally friendly options exist. My chest freezer uses cyclopentane and works just fine. R152a (computer duster) is even an option, and has similar performance to R134a.

 

[Ashful]

Its about phasing out refrigerants in stages to save the ozone layer.

I do wonder what would be the contribution of ozone-depleting refrigerants, to actual ozone layer depletion, with today's regulations on refrigerator and refrigerant disposal. If said refrigerant is not being released into the atmosphere willy-nilly, having substituted it with products yielding higher energy usage and lower reliability is likely not doing us much good. That perceived short-sightedness, whether legit or misinformed, is the very point of my original post.

LG Refrigerators have 7 year warranty on the sealed systems and 10 years on the compressor.

Yeah, I asked about this. Trouble is, I couldn't get a repair person to even evaluate the thing for 6 days. After evaluation, they would let me know the cost, order parts, and then schedule the actual repair. If a non-warranty item, cost could be half of a new fridge. If warranty, I'm still out ~10 days without a refrigerator, plus the travel costs not covered by the manufacturer warranty. Not really a valid option, when it's your primary kitchen refrigerator. The bigger point is, why is it already in a failure state, just a few days past it's second birthday?

 

[semipro]

So I went over to look at it last night and when I pulled the front cover off the whole coil was covered in about an inch of dust bunny/pug hair...I vac'd things up and it seemed to be off to the races when plugged back in...they said they didn't think it had been cleaned before...I guess 5 years without a cleaning is a pretty good run! Haven't heard yet about the results...I bet its fine though.

Condenser coils clogged with dust and hair is super common. Few people bother to clean them anymore.

When we went shopping for a new fridge about 15 years ago we identified a Samsung model that enabled me to install a filter on the rear of the unit where the condenser cooling air comes in. (typically, condenser cooling airflow on fridges is in through the bottom and out through the back). With 4 dogs, a cat, and 2 teenage sons I knew hair was going to be a problem.
The search was entertaining as my sons and I were literally tipping units over at the local appliance store to assess the airflow design while salespeople and other customers looked sideways at us.
Funny, and to @Ashful's point, when the fridge was delivered, the delivery guys told me they'd be out delivering another one within 4 years as new fridges weren't built to last. This was in about 2007.
I pull the fridge out about once a year to clean the filter and door seals over the 16 years we've had it.
It may be that our experience is an outlier. It might also be that the recommended maintenance is ignored by most owners, or that newer fridges are designed so close to the bleeding edge of efficient performance that they can't handle the lack of maintenance that older fridges could.

I agree with @Ashful's point about warranties. I've really resent that we are sold shoddy goods with short factory warranties and then upsold on an additional warranty to supposedly make up for the low quality. Then, when things do break, parts are long delayed as they are sourced overseas, all while we suffer with a broken appliance that we depend upon daily.
Not only are too many things going to the landfill but too much time, effort, fuel, rotting food, etc. is lost when something like a fridge goes bad.

Things should be built to last longer. I suspect though, that what we'd have to pay for decent, long-lasting appliances now might not be acceptable to us.

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm all for refrigerant regulations. We are in a transitional phase and Mfgs want to pass that cost onto consumers. This will eventually be resolved, but I agree that teething sucks

 

[LogCabinFever]

Totally agree that appliances should come with a minimum 10yr warranty. No excuse for it. I spent over $1000 for a Bosch dishwasher and it only had a 1yr warranty. Absolutely a joke.

I also agree that older is better. My parents have one of the old yellow fridges from the 80s. NEVER one problem, still runs perfectly. It’s a hard argument to say that a dumping a 40yr+ old fridge with R12 is more environmentally bad than ten 4yr old fridges with modern refrigerant.

 

[woodgeek]

It’s a hard argument to say that a dumping a 40yr+ old fridge with R12 is more environmentally bad than ten 4yr old fridges with modern refrigerant.

One 40 yr fridge is 100X worse for the ozone layer than a fridge with modern refrigerant. Just saying.

 

[LogCabinFever]

One 40 yr fridge is 100X worse for the ozone layer than a fridge with modern refrigerant. Just saying.

Naturally I’m going to ask for your source.

Additionally, what about material waste?

If you’re going to use modern refrigerant, fine. But there’s no reason we can’t develop reliable appliances.

The same thing happened when tar was eliminated from roads. Until superpave was developed, nothing was as durable for decades.

 

[woodgeek]

Naturally I’m going to ask for your source.

Additionally, what about material waste?

If you’re going to use modern refrigerant, fine. But there’s no reason we can’t develop reliable appliances.

The same thing happened when tar was eliminated from roads. Until superpave was developed, nothing was as durable for decades.

"Derived ODPs: By definition, the ODP for CFC-11 is 1.0. The calculated ODPs for other CFCs are all greater than 0.4. The ODPs for halons are all extremely large, much greater than 1.0, reflecting the high reactivity of bromine with ozone. The ODPs for the HCFCs being used or considered as CFC or halon replacements are all small, with values of 0.01–0.05 and sometimes less. The effect on ozone from a unit mass emission of one of these HCFCs would correspondingly be less than a 100th of the effect on ozone than the CFC or halon they would replace. ODPs for all the hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs), perfluorocarbons (PFCs), and for sulfur hexafluoride are near zero, owing to the low reactivity of their dissociation products with ozone. Table 1 shows ODPs for several of the gases of most concern to ozone. Replacement compounds like HCFCs and HFCs (not shown because their ODPs are close to zero) have much smaller ODPs than the CFCs and halons."

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/ozone-depletion-potential

 

[Ashful]

One 40 yr fridge is 100X worse for the ozone layer than a fridge with modern refrigerant. Just saying.

I don't think that's possible, as the refrigerant is still inside of that 40 year old refrigerator, it's not in the atmosphere. When the thing reaches end of life, perhaps after 50 years, the refrigerant will be reclaimed, not released to the atmosphere. Only in the rare occasion of a gross leak is any appreciable amount of this refrigerant ever released to the atmosphere, given modern regulations, as it's impossible to get your trash company to pick up said old refrigerator without a tag showing the refrigerant had been reclaimed.

I know that in even ideal circumstances, some is always lost, either thru slow leaks or during the reclamation process. Heck, illegal dumping probably contributes, but I'd suspect that less than 1% of the refrigerators produced today ever see an illegal dump.

When the ratio of lifespan is literally 10:1, I do have to wonder which is the greater evil. We're not talking about a 20% or 50% change in typical lifespan and trashed units, but perhaps 1000%.

 

[kborndale]

This thread reminds me of the stories my father used to say that when he was working on his car in the 60's he used to grab a warm beer and a bottle of r12 and spray the beer can to make it cold as he had absolutely no idea it was destroying the ozone and the cans of r12 cost nothing.

 

[brenndatomu]

Only in the rare occasion of a gross leak is any appreciable amount of this refrigerant ever released to the atmosphere, given modern regulations

Or some hillbilly at the scrap yard that knocks the lines off the compressor with a hammer...been there seen that...or again, said hillbilly that disposes of old appliances back in the hills and everyone uses them for target practice.
And what is done with the old freon once its "reclaimed"? It gets reused...I doubt that...or it sits around in containers forever until they rust out? Kinda like the local plastic shopping bag recycling...they collect them and then most just end up in the landfill (this came directly from the local recycling district website)

 

[Ashful]

Or some hillbilly at the scrap yard that knocks the lines off the compressor with a hammer...been there seen that...or again, said hillbilly that disposes of old appliances back in the hills and everyone uses them for target practice.

Yeah, 40 years ago. Today, that refrigerator will never make it to the scrap yard, without a reclaim tag. Haulers face heavy fines for retrieving any refrigerator, air conditioner, or dehumidifier without proper tagging.

But this thread has gone adrift, as it wasn't about re-instating ozone-depleting refrigerants. @woodgeek made a good point, in that the change to modern refrigerants has affected reliability, if trying to hold a cost point. It's very likely that getting to a 20 year MTTF on modern refrigerants would cause the product cost to rise in a way that would seriously hamper a given manufacturer's sales. But having experienced the opposite, I would be willing to pay $6k for a refrigerator that is guaranteed to last 15 years, versus $1400 - $1600 every second year.

And what is done with the old freon once its "reclaimed"? It gets reused...I doubt that...

Yes, it gets re-used in older equipment that still requires old refrigerants for maintenance. The largest of my four home HVAC units still runs on R22, and shows no signs of quitting. It's nearly 40 years old, now. Factories, cold storage facilities, and many other commercial buildings are still filled with equipment running old refrigerants.

 

[ABMax24]

Yeah, I asked about this. Trouble is, I couldn't get a repair person to even evaluate the thing for 6 days. After evaluation, they would let me know the cost, order parts, and then schedule the actual repair. If a non-warranty item, cost could be half of a new fridge. If warranty, I'm still out ~10 days without a refrigerator, plus the travel costs not covered by the manufacturer warranty. Not really a valid option, when it's your primary kitchen refrigerator. The bigger point is, why is it already in a failure state, just a few days past it's second birthday?

LG in Canada covers 180km travel for the repair person. Otherwise travel is the responsibility of the customer. Of course depending on where the nearest repair location is.

Our fifth wheel has a fridge if I need to use it in summer, winter I guess stuff can go to the garage to stay cool enough for a day or two.

 

[Ashful]

LG in Canada covers 180km travel for the repair person. Otherwise travel is the responsibility of the customer. Of course depending on where the nearest repair location is.

Our fifth wheel has a fridge if I need to use it in summer, winter I guess stuff can go to the garage to stay cool enough for a day or two.

We actually have five refrigerators and two freezers in this house, but with the exception of this big kitchen refrigerator, all of them are collegiate or under-counter sized. In this case, and others, when the kitchen fridge died, we didn't realize it until we found it hot and smelly inside the following morning. Freezer had already mostly thawed, and milk was already curdled. I actually heard it making an odd sound the evening before, but since it was still cold at that time, I didn't know what to make of it.

We moved some stuff to the smaller refrigerators, but given their limited space and sometimes pretty long distance from the kitchen (who wants to traverse three flights of stairs for their butter?), we just let most of what was in the kitchen go to the garbage.

My wife doesn't love the new GE, it sticks farther out into the room despite having less capacity and same height x width as the LG. This may be the rare case where I take the time to order something good, and just find a way to sell the almost-new GE afterward. I'd go full built-in, Viking or Sub-Zero, except we plan to tear out and redo this kitchen in the next 2 years.

 

[brenndatomu]

Yeah, 40 years ago. Today, that refrigerator will never make it to the scrap yard, without a reclaim tag

We can still take our own stuff to the scrap yard around here...it still happens.

 

[blades]

Old refridge at parents place still working I do not remember the make but I am 72 and it was there as far back as I can remember. just replaced door seals once in a while. I have had several ref. fail over the past 50 years not always from the compressor, cooling fan motors that fail causing compressor to over heat. I try to find models that have the coil up the back side rather than underneath, they seem to have less problems.

 

[blades]

EPA- short sighted- more like political winds/ agenda - for an agency with no authority to create laws, they sure have caused havoc. The latest bull roar involving Gas appliances - why in the world would I trade to an electric version which will cost 3 times as much to run. Only thing I see here besides the political is whose pockets are getting lined? The benzene issue is way overstated, the electrical grid is already marginal size/ capacity wise in many areas.

 

[SpaceBus]

The gas stove stuff is really about public health. Electric stoves are not going to overtax the grid either. They typically pull only a tiny amount of their 50 amp capacity except for starting up the oven