JØTUL C 450 KENNEBEC

[Jackofwoods]

My first post, just say so if I’m doin it wrong.

I have installed the insert in the firebox and the chimney is lined with tile that looks to be in good shape.

I pushed 8’ of 6” galvanized 30 gauge pipe up the chimney in hopes of improving draft.
I plan on taking it all apart and doing it right come spring but I’m renovating an old house and needed to get the old Vermont castings off the floor.
All seems well right now but I know the “pipe” is more like duct and it isn’t to code.
Since the chimney has a tile liner, which appears to be in good shape, isn’t the pipe kind of redundant? Other than improving draft?

The previous owners had 36” of 8” horizontal pipe from a Vigilant dead ending at the chimney flue and I cleaned out a solid 2’ of fluffy creosote. Scary stuff.
The answer to “why not just do it right” is, of course, money.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[bholler]

No it is not redundant. A proper liner contains will be properly sized for your insert. That will make it work much better. And because the exhaust would actually be contained it is much safer and easier to maintain. What you have can be very unsafe. And you should never use galvanized to ventva woodburner

 

[begreen]

Welcome. And yes, you are doing it wrong, but you knew that. Galvanized pipe can not be used in a chimney, it must be stainless steel. The liner may stop when it it is in the tile liner, but then it requires a damper area sealing block-off plate. This is to create a seal to the chimney and prevent the reverse drafting of flue gases. As you have discovered, it is a poor way to connect a stove for a number of reasons. The flue size changes allowing flue gases to slow down and cool off. This causes creosote to build up as it condenses on the cool chimney tile walls. It can also lead to poor stove performance leading to dirty burns and more creosote accumulation. The stove should have a full stainless steel liner from insert to the top.

 

[Jackofwoods]

Thanks for the reply’s.
I do have a well fitting damper block plate.
Is the stainless required for pipe longevity?
If so won’t it last me one season?
And why the heck does every ace hardware store have a bunch of it marked stove pipe?
Thx again

Welcome. And yes, you are doing it wrong, but you knew that. Galvanized pipe can not be used in a chimney, it must be stainless steel. The liner may stop when it it is in the tile liner, but then it requires a damper area sealing block-off plate. This is to create a seal to the chimney and prevent the reverse drafting of flue gases. As you have discovered, it is a poor way to connect a stove for a number of reasons. The flue size changes allowing flue gases to slow down and cool off. This causes creosote to build up as it condenses on the cool chimney tile walls. It can also lead to poor stove performance leading to dirty burns and more creosote accumulation. The stove should have a full stainless steel liner from insert to the top.

 

[begreen]

I do have a well fitting damper block plate.
Good
Is the stainless required for pipe longevity?
Yes, the chimney is a corrosive environment. Also, hot galvanized pipe emits zinc fumes which are toxic.
If so won’t it last me one season?
Probably, but with caveats and life often gets away from us with other priorities.
And why the heck does every ace hardware store have a bunch of it marked stove pipe?
Not every. Our ACE has the proper blue/black steel stove pipe (Also not ok for chimney install) Galvanized is warm air duct. New stock boy with the label gun?

What size chimney tile is the insert venting into?

 

[Jackofwoods]

What size chimney tile is the insert venting into?

I believe it’s 10” clay liner.
Doesn’t the galvy have to get to like 1600 deg F before it will creat toxic fumes?

 

[bholler]

I believe it’s 10” clay liner.
Doesn’t the galvy have to get to like 1600 deg F before it will creat toxic fumes?

Yes it does and it can in the event of a chimney fire. Which you are at a pretty big risk of with your setup due to the rapid expansion of the smoke as it leaves the 6"

 

[KennyK]

Galvanized pipe can not be used in a chimney, it must be stainless steel... The stove should have a full stainless steel liner from insert to the top.

Also, the stainless steel 6 inch liner should be insulated. You may find the info you are getting here frustrating as you did some work to get your setup going (if only for one season), but the folks who are giving you this advice are pros (them, not me), and looking out for your safety first and foremost, and to make sure your setup works well. You should listen to them, ask more questions, search the site and read the many posts on insulated liners, and do this the right way. Also, how’s your wood? Hopefully nice and dry to below 20% moisture as read on a moisture meter after resplitting a split and testing on the inside.

Good luck!

 

[Jackofwoods]

Also, the stainless steel 6 inch liner should be insulated. You may find the info you are getting here frustrating as you did some work to get your setup going (if only for one season), but the folks who are giving you this advice are pros (them, not me), and looking out for your safety first and foremost, and to make sure your setup works well. You should listen to them, ask more questions, search the site and read the many posts on insulated liners, and do this the right way. Also, how’s your wood? Hopefully nice and dry to below 20% moisture as read on a moisture meter after resplitting a split and testing on the inside.

Good luck!

My wood is good and dry thank you.
It is a bit frustrating.
I’m asking for insight on a set up that I know is less than ideal and every response so far has been to take the entire system well above and beyond 2015 irc requirements.
Which, as far as I can tell, does allow for galvanized pipe in a solid fuel system. (2015 IRC M1803.2)
Correct me if I’m wrong!
And not, in fact, a new kid with a pricing gun. That kind of disinformation (if that’s what it is) isn’t helpful, even if it is someone’s strong opinion.
I was looking for some insight and so far feel like I’m getting off the shelf answers.
Just leaves me back where I started.

Thanks though.

 

[jatoxico]

My first post, just say so if I’m doin it wrong.

I’m asking for insight on a set up that I know is less than ideal and every response so far has been to take the entire system well above and beyond 2015 irc requirements.

You asked and that's what you're getting. As stated before some responders are pro's in the field and are not steering you wrong. You seem to think the only problem is the use of galv pipe but in fact you need also need to have a direct permanent attachment to the existing flue. That's not the best way to do it due to the stove's requirements but that is still legal I believe. What you have done is a "slammer" install, which as you posted was what the previous owner which as you said led to the "scary" creosote formation you found. You can search slammer hear and read why it's a dangerous setup.

The previous owners had 36” of 8” horizontal pipe from a Vigilant dead ending at the chimney flue and I cleaned out a solid 2’ of fluffy creosote. Scary stuff.

 

[bholler]

My wood is good and dry thank you.
It is a bit frustrating.
I’m asking for insight on a set up that I know is less than ideal and every response so far has been to take the entire system well above and beyond 2015 irc requirements.
Which, as far as I can tell, does allow for galvanized pipe in a solid fuel system. (2015 IRC M1803.2)
Correct me if I’m wrong!
And not, in fact, a new kid with a pricing gun. That kind of disinformation (if that’s what it is) isn’t helpful, even if it is someone’s strong opinion.
I was looking for some insight and so far feel like I’m getting off the shelf answers.
Just leaves me back where I started.

Thanks though.

2015 irc allows for a direct connect which you have. But your direct connect does not meet many of the requirements for a code compliant direct connect. To be done to code a direct connect
1. needs to vent into a code compliant masonry chimney. Have you had a full inspection done checking for cracks or missing mortar between liners? Did you have it checked for proper clearances from the outside of the masonry structure to combustible materials?

2. The connection needs to be run out of a ul listed liner not stove pipe from the stove into the first clay tile and it needs to have a positive connection to that clay.

3. The clay liner can be no more than 3x the volume of the stove outlet which yours is.

The answer i gave was not just my opinion. It was based on codes and years of experience cleaning working on and installing stoves.

 

[bholler]

You asked and that's what you're getting. As stated before some responders are pro's in the field and are not steering you wrong. You seem to think the only problem is the use of galv pipe but in fact you need also need to have a direct permanent attachment to the existing flue. That's not the best way to do it due to the stove's requirements but that is still legal I believe. What you have done is a "slammer" install, which as you posted was what the previous owner which as you said led to the "scary" creosote formation you found. You can search slammer hear and read why it's a dangerous setup.

I agree with everything you said but what he has is not a slammer. It is a direct connect which is allowed if done properly. But this one is not done properly at all.

 

[Jackofwoods]

You asked and that's what you're getting. As stated before some responders are pro's in the field and are not steering you wrong. You seem to think the only problem is the use of galv pipe but in fact you need also need to have a direct permanent attachment to the existing flue. That's not the best way to do it due to the stove's requirements but that is still legal I believe. What you have done is a "slammer" install, which as you posted was what the previous owner which as you said led to the "scary" creosote formation you found. You can search slammer hear and read why it's a dangerous setup.

That’s helpful.
I do have a block off plate and 8’ of pipe up the brick, a total of 9+” of pipe by the time you get to the stove. Well unto the existing tile liner.
The longer the the pipe the better the draft,right?
I believe the major issues are:
-galvanized pipe=code compliant.
-pipe only extends halfway +/- up chimney = code compliant.
-pipe is only 30 gauge= non code compliant but will last me a season without difficulty.
I am easily hung up on the galvy issue
because others are so adamant about it. Until I can find a case stating the same I don’t know why I would take someone’s word for it.
Please do share if such code exists.
2018 international mechanical code
Section 801.12 requires 12” into the flue and I’m running 8’.
Hardly a slammer no?

 

[bholler]

That’s helpful.
I do have a block off plate and 8’ of pipe up the brick, a total of 9+” of pipe by the time you get to the stove. Well unto the existing tile liner.
The longer the the pipe the better the draft,right?
I believe the major issues are:
-galvanized pipe=code compliant.
-pipe only extends halfway +/- up chimney = code compliant.
-pipe is only 30 gauge= non code compliant but will last me a season without difficulty.
I am easily hung up on the galvy issue
because others are so adamant about it. Until I can find a case stating the same I don’t know why I would take someone’s word for it.
Please do share if such code exists.
2018 international mechanical code
Section 801.12 requires 12” into the flue and I’m running 8’.
Hardly a slammer no?

Read the chimney connection section of the stove manual. That is how it needs to be done. The manual of a ul listed appliance over rides any other code.

 

[jatoxico]

I understood your block-off plate as just a heat retention plate not a connection of the pipe to the clay tile as required. If I'm wrong about that then my mistake.

Again unless I'm just not understanding what you have installed the pipe ends loose in the clay tile. Exiting gases at that point will expand and cool and anything you sweep or that falls can end up outside the galv pipe. The area of the 6" pipe is around 30" and the 10 x10 is 100" so big difference.

As far as the galv pipe it's not a question of whether it can withstand normal operating temps but in the case of a flue fire in which case it's not rated.

 

[bholler]

And to be clear that manual requires stainless. Tile no larger than 8x12 with a positive connection for an internal chimney and 8x8 with a positive connection for external. And that chimney needs to be code compliant.