Jotul 404 rebuild.

[Nacci]

This is my first post here. I just rebuilt a 404 and thought I’d share a few pictures. I’ve been having excellent luck repair welding cast iron. Not sure if that has been discussed here. Also, I saw a listing on eBay of a NOS 404 and it had an insert in the burn box. So timely, because as I was rebuilding this one I wondered what these tabs on the face plate were for. Now I have owned three 404s and have never seen this insert before now. Does anyone have any information on them and why so many 404 are missing them?

 

[Nacci]

Necking down a 6” to 4” reducer to fit these crazy Jotul flue outlets.

 

[Nacci]

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[Nacci]

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[Nacci]

Cutting new fire brick.

 

[begreen]

Good for you. You are saving what looks like a basket case.

What does the insert look like? Link?

 

[Nacci]

Thank you for that. I did forget to post a picture of the insert. I have owned three 404s in my life and none of them have had one.

 

[peakbagger]

Great work. I have a dark porcelain one in my living room that is not hooked up. Its got some discoloration on the top and chip next to one of the top screws. I also have that same insert and there was another 404 posting a couple of years ago from someone out west that uses his and i think he also had one. I bought my stove used from someone in Maine who had bought it from an old timer who was moving out of his home. The old timer told him that it was for running the stove on coal but as you probably have figured out its not shown in the part listing of owners manual that you can download from the Jotul website. I remember asking the guy out west about it but I do not remember if we came up with any more definite info.

The coal idea is the most reasonable,normally when burning coal the combustion air is introduced from the bottom of the fire while burning with wood its normally is introduced from the side thus the two air inlets on the stove. My speculation is that it was used to manually rake the grate when coal was being used and also to introduce more coal to the bed. The problem with that theory is that he insert is just balanced in place and on mine if I lift it up too high it falls out of the slot potentially on the floor. Not a real good thing for a potentially red hot piece of cast iron. I have looked at mine and I dont see any sort of trace of a place to install a retainer to keep it from falling out. Coal tends to be harder on cast iron due to acids formed during combustion so I do not plan to ever try coal.

I think the logical source to find out exactly what it is would be to contact Jotul in Gorham Maine and see if they could answer what it was definitely since they are the successor to Kristia Associates who were the original importer. I dont think they were into selling coal stoves so maybe they just ignored it when they imported them. At some point I was in contact with a dealer that claimed that Jotul only brought over a limited number in response to the demand prior to Y2k. I dont think it was regular model and possibly a Euro version had coal capability and some of them got shipped stateside?

So are you the guy that grabs these when he sees them and rebuilds them to sell into the Boston market?. I somehow got in contact with someone in southern NH who did that. He pretty well established the value of used 404s in the area and would snap them up if they were selling for too cheap.

BTW the bottom grate was still available a few years ago. Mine had a crack with no metal missing but since I wasnt sure when it would be used again I bought a spare.

One of these years I will build a new house and make a spot for mine to hook it up. Unlike a normal wood cook stove they do not take up a lot of room and the few reviews I have read of folks who used them to cook rate them well and pass the "loaf of bread" test . I think a typical wood burner would be surprised how small the fire box is and the size of the wood that would need to be used. I expect most would consider the wood needed as kindling which also tends to support the coal speculation as coal has a far higher energy density. I would think for wood, dense hardwood bone dry is the ticket and expect some charcoal briquettes might be interesting to try.

 

[Nacci]

Great work. I have a dark porcelain one in my living room that is not hooked up. Its got some discoloration on the top and chip next to one of the top screws. I also have that same insert and there was another 404 posting a couple of years ago from someone out west that uses his and i think he also had one. I bought my stove used from someone in Maine who had bought it from an old timer who was moving out of his home. The old timer told him that it was for running the stove on coal but as you probably have figured out its not shown in the part listing of owners manual that you can download from the Jotul website. I remember asking the guy out west about it but I do not remember if we came up with any more definite info.

The coal idea is the most reasonable,normally when burning coal the combustion air is introduced from the bottom of the fire while burning with wood its normally is introduced from the side thus the two air inlets on the stove. My speculation is that it was used to manually rake the grate when coal was being used and also to introduce more coal to the bed. The problem with that theory is that he insert is just balanced in place and on mine if I lift it up too high it falls out of the slot potentially on the floor. Not a real good thing for a potentially red hot piece of cast iron. I have looked at mine and I dont see any sort of trace of a place to install a retainer to keep it from falling out. Coal tends to be harder on cast iron due to acids formed during combustion so I do not plan to ever try coal.

I think the logical source to find out exactly what it is would be to contact Jotul in Gorham Maine and see if they could answer what it was definitely since they are the successor to Kristia Associates who were the original importer. I dont think they were into selling coal stoves so maybe they just ignored it when they imported them. At some point I was in contact with a dealer that claimed that Jotul only brought over a limited number in response to the demand prior to Y2k. I dont think it was regular model and possibly a Euro version had coal capability and some of them got shipped stateside?

So are you the guy that grabs these when he sees them and rebuilds them to sell into the Boston market?. I somehow got in contact with someone in southern NH who did that. He pretty well established the value of used 404s in the area and would snap them up if they were selling for too cheap.

BTW the bottom grate was still available a few years ago. Mine had a crack with no metal missing but since I wasnt sure when it would be used again I bought a spare.

One of these years I will build a new house and make a spot for mine to hook it up. Unlike a normal wood cook stove they do not take up a lot of room and the few reviews I have read of folks who used them to cook rate them well and pass the "loaf of bread" test . I think a typical wood burner would be surprised how small the fire box is and the size of the wood that would need to be used. I expect most would consider the wood needed as kindling which also tends to support the coal speculation as coal has a far higher energy density. I would think for wood, dense hardwood bone dry is the ticket and expect some charcoal briquettes might be interesting to try.

Thank you for that reply and insight. To speak directly to the fella that buys up 404s and the like in my area, no, that is not me. I do know who you are referring to though. He posts quite a bit on our local Craigslist. You had better be quick if you see something good in the area at a nice price.

I installed a 404 in our garage for the very reason that you stated, it takes up very little space and the setback with a heat shield a DVL are minimal.

Good info on the insert, I appreciate that. I’ll reach out to Jotul in Maine and see what they have to say about it.

It is interesting that you mentioned it may be for coal. I have a real fondness for coal for some reason and have been able to collect quite a bit of it for free locally. I have burned it in my Jotul 404 and it burns just fine. Whether I am supposed to is another story. I think it it’s like welding cast iron. My father is an old salt and trained welder and when I told him I was successfully welding cast iron he said; no you’re not, you can’t weld cast iron. I just took some coal, threw it in my 404 burn box and it burnt fine.

 

[Nacci]

These are the final pictures. I picked it up about three weeks ago in the sorriest of condition and put about 40 shop hours into it, as well as a considerable amount of consumables, drill bits, oxygen, argon/Co2, acetylene, cutting, grinding and sanding discs, high temp paint, masonry caulk, fire bricks, all new bolts, nuts and screws, permeated anti seize and so on.

In short, I could never sell it for anything close to what I have into it. It was just a labor of love to bring it back and I will just store it in my workshop with the plan of possibly installing it one day in a tiny house that I would like to build out of an old railway caboose.

Thanks for looking.

 

[peakbagger]

My dad had an uncle who was a welder at the papermill in Westbrook Maine from back in the early 1900s I think he retired in the 1960s when I was a kid. His reputation in the area and the mill was that he was the guy that could weld the stuff that everyone else said could not be welded including cast iron. During some family event it was mentioned that during WW2 he would teach GIs how to weld including cast iron. I think modern cast iron may be different than older cast iron from 100 years ago. I think there are big differences in grain size between old cast and new cast. They used to make things out of cast iron to last "forever". I see a lot of ads for exotic alloy rods that make welding cast "easy" I am not much of welder so never tried. My guess is they are a high temperature braze?

I used to work with a pattern maker long ago who knew casting and he mentioned that frequently large castings would be poured and then they would let them sit in a field for a couple of years over several seasons to remove residual stress from the casting before machining. I think racing teams int he sixties used to prefer to buy old blocks that had hours on them to rebuild for racing engines for the same reason. The cheap "Taiwanese" castings used on "clones" of US stoves had a rep of having coarse grains and lots of residual stress that occasionally caused casting failures. I also see on various antique shows that one of the tips for deciding if a cast iron object is original or reproduction is the much finer casting grain of the originals but I am not sure if that is caused but the sand they use for the mold or the actual grain structure of the metal. I have run into porous castings in the past where when starting to machine it, dark voids show up in the shiny machined metal. The machinist has to keep cutting until that is not visible and if its critical part they have to do dye penetrant testing to ensure that the porosity is gone. I think the cheap offshore castings get filled with putty and painted. I had a cheap vice I bought once and discovered when working with a torch around it that what I thought was a smooth casting was a very rough casting that had been smoothed out with filler.

Interesting that you have run into that guy. Mine went on Craigslist on a Friday night and I was driving over with cash the next morning to get mine so maybe he was out of town. I used to look for them in the region and lost out to him on a couple to him. He apparently made them look good and sold them to interior designers in the Boston market so I expect most are never used and are just decorations for high end homes. I don't think he wanted them if the porcelain was chipped up. I think there are lots of folks who scan craigslist and Uncle Henry's like the guys on Downeast Dickering and see what they sell for and will grab them for less if they can and then list them for more. I think that was the situation with mine, he had it sitting in the middle of his living room waiting to be resold and expect he had bought it just a few days earlier.

Good to hear you can burn coal and using it for what it was made for.

 

[peakbagger]

It would look good in a caboose. I drive by a forlorn caboose on occasion up in Berlin. The Saint Laurence and Atlantic has it sitting on the end of a long dead siding slowly rotting away . There are couple of old cabooses up in my area that were converted to camps. I can think of three within 20 minutes that were hauled in by truck and set on a length of rail.

 

[Nacci]

It would look good in a caboose. I drive by a forlorn caboose on occasion up in Berlin. The Saint Laurence and Atlantic has it sitting on the end of a long dead siding slowly rotting away . There are couple of old cabooses up in my area that were converted to camps. I can think of three within 20 minutes that were hauled in by truck and set on a length of rail.

Very nice. I’ll have to look into that. Perhaps there are some pictures posted on line. Many of those old cabooses are absolutely beautiful. Some of the problems that I am encountering here are land use and zoning. There is a real hesitancy.

I actually got this 404 not far from you in Littleton. Of course it was listed in very good condition.

 

[jotul 121]

This is my first post here. I just rebuilt a 404 and thought I’d share a few pictures. I’ve been having excellent luck repair welding cast iron. Not sure if that has been discussed here. Also, I saw a listing on eBay of a NOS 404 and it had an insert in the burn box. So timely, because as I was rebuilding this one I wondered what these tabs on the face plate were for. Now I have owned three 404s and have never seen this insert before now. Does anyone have any information on them and why so many 404 are missing them?

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Hello there, I just admired your rebuild of this 404! Wow what a nice and lovely job you have done to rebuild this nice stove. I am very interested in the procedure how to weld on this stove. Could you describe me how this should be done? I also have a Jotul 404 with a small crack in the upper deck. The crack goes from the edge towards the round whole where the metal rings are positioned, it is only 1- 1,5 inch long..

 

[Nacci]

Hello there, I just admired your rebuild of this 404! Wow what a nice and lovely job you have done to rebuild this nice stove. I am very interested in the procedure how to weld on this stove. Could you describe me how this should be done? I also have a Jotul 404 with a small crack in the upper deck. The crack goes from the edge towards the round whole where the metal rings are positioned, it is only 1- 1,5 inch long..

Hello Jotul 121 and thank you for your kind words. In my experience; to weld cast iron effectively, it is all about the prep work and set up. I used a Hobart 187 MIG welder with .30 mild steel wire and 25% CO2 and 75% Argon shielding gas.

You have to remove the piece that you are welding so the stove must be disassembled to the degree that you can get that piece off. I can help you with that process if you need. Once the piece is off, wash it throughly with soap and hot water to get off any soot and grease. Next; use an Oxy/Acetylene- Oxy/Propane or simple MAP Gas torch to go over the piece throughly to pull all the moisture out of it.

Now that the piece is removed, cleaned and free of moisture you need to use an angle grinder to grind out the crack from both sides. You are basically grinding a "V" shape into the crack from each side that meets but does not exceed the halfway point. Think of a chalice. Next; grind off the paint or patina near the surface and around each "V" shape and crack.

Something that is critical is that the area that you attach your ground must be as close as possible to the area you are going to weld without getting in your way. An excellent ground pathway is very important.

Finally you are ready to weld. Your first job is to inpregnate the cast iron with the mild steel, to make an amalgamation and transition point. You do this through a series of spot welds along each of the "V" side walls. Whatever the settings your machine calls for; set the wire feed one step higher. Now go down each wall and spot weld small areas of mild steel into the cast iron. Take your time; four well spaced spot welds on one side, flip the piece over then four on the other. Leave it alone, walk away, let the piece cool throughly. Continue to do this until all four side walls have been impregnated with mild steel.

Once this is done you are ready to weld the crack shut. You also accomplish this though a series of spot welds. You must avoid putting too much heat into the piece because it will warp and potentially develop other cracks. Just do a few spot welds on the crack, trying to bridge them with the previous spot welds on the side walls you did earlier. Four on each side, no more, them walk away and let it cool.

Of course this will take a while but when the end arrives you should have a welded crack that is ready for grinding and paint. One tip, when you do go to pint the area you welded, heat it up, remove all moisture and open up the pores of the cast iron. It is fine to spray High Heat paint on to very warm/hot metal. The paint will get into the pores and create a bond far greater that if this step was not done.

I hoped this help and best regards from the States.

 

[MR. GLO]

Very nice work,,,Did that stove come with firebrick originally and what brand furnace cement do you prefer for the panels?

 

[Nacci]

Very nice work,,,Did that stove come with firebrick originally and what brand furnace cement do you prefer for the panels?

Thank you. The original firebrick was unusable. I replaced it all with standard Rutland fire brick and “glued” it in place a formed it with standard Rutland refractory cement.

I think Rutland makes good, quality products.

 

[jotul 121]

Hello Jotul 121 and thank you for your kind words. In my experience; to weld cast iron effectively, it is all about the prep work and set up. I used a Hobart 187 MIG welder with .30 mild steel wire and 25% CO2 and 75% Argon shielding gas.

You have to remove the piece that you are welding so the stove must be disassembled to the degree that you can get that piece off. I can help you with that process if you need. Once the piece is off, wash it throughly with soap and hot water to get off any soot and grease. Next; use an Oxy/Acetylene- Oxy/Propane or simple MAP Gas torch to go over the piece throughly to pull all the moisture out of it.

Now that the piece is removed, cleaned and free of moisture you need to use an angle grinder to grind out the crack from both sides. You are basically grinding a "V" shape into the crack from each side that meets but does not exceed the halfway point. Think of a chalice. Next; grind off the paint or patina near the surface and around each "V" shape and crack.

Something that is critical is that the area that you attach your ground must be as close as possible to the area you are going to weld without getting in your way. An excellent ground pathway is very important.

Finally you are ready to weld. Your first job is to inpregnate the cast iron with the mild steel, to make an amalgamation and transition point. You do this through a series of spot welds along each of the "V" side walls. Whatever the settings your machine calls for; set the wire feed one step higher. Now go down each wall and spot weld small areas of mild steel into the cast iron. Take your time; four well spaced spot welds on one side, flip the piece over then four on the other. Leave it alone, walk away, let the piece cool throughly. Continue to do this until all four side walls have been impregnated with mild steel.

Once this is done you are ready to weld the crack shut. You also accomplish this though a series of spot welds. You must avoid putting too much heat into the piece because it will warp and potentially develop other cracks. Just do a few spot welds on the crack, trying to bridge them with the previous spot welds on the side walls you did earlier. Four on each side, no more, them walk away and let it cool.

Of course this will take a while but when the end arrives you should have a welded crack that is ready for grinding and paint. One tip, when you do go to pint the area you welded, heat it up, remove all moisture and open up the pores of the cast iron. It is fine to spray High Heat paint on to very warm/hot metal. The paint will get into the pores and create a bond far greater that if this step was not done.

I hoped this help and best regards from the States.

Hello again, I have read your precise and thorough answer very well. Thank you for taking time to answer so well my question! I have some pictures now from the Jotul 404 stove that needs repair. There are 2 cracks in the upper deck, and 1 in the back wall. I have not yet purchased the stove , only went there to see the condition. I think the stove has been overheated, not respecting the maximum temperature of the stove..
What do you think when you look at these cracks?..

 

[SpaceBus]

I agree that the insert is probably for burning coal, but I expect it is held in place while the door is closed. To load coal most do it from above the fire rather than on the side. Most likely the lid would be removed and the coal poured/dropped in from above. The insert keeps the coal from piling up against the door. The coal bed could also be raked/shaken from above with a shovel or hoe shaped tool. Generally the draft would keep any ash from coming out from the top, but we all know that wasn't 100% accurate.

 

[Nacci]

Hello again, I have read your precise and thorough answer very well. Thank you for taking time to answer so well my question! I have some pictures now from the Jotul 404 stove that needs repair. There are 2 cracks in the upper deck, and 1 in the back wall. I have not yet purchased the stove , only went there to see the condition. I think the stove has been overheated, not respecting the maximum temperature of the stove..
What do you think when you look at these cracks?..

I agree that these significant cracks are a result of overheating, which is easy to do on these stoves. I think it can be fixed but I think everything can be fixed. I would reiterate my previous bit of advice in that the whole stove would need to be disassembled which also means that it will need to be reassembled and that is not an easy thing to do. It all has to be done in a specific order and one must have the innate sense and experience to know how to put things back together. Your biggest challenge will be that crack on the deck/top. It looks like they continued to use the stove log after that crack occurred and as a result it deformed out. That is problematic because it will be very difficult to get it back into shape, at the very least the technique to fix that are will be advanced.

I would say that unless you are getting tis stove extremely cheap, 150-200 euro and you feel very confident in your ability to do the work necessary to bring it back then I would pass.

I'm not sure how plentiful these stoves are in France but if the price is right it would be worth buying as a parts stove. Also, look for Lange 911-W stoves, these also come from Denmark and are a real favorite of mine.

I hope that helped and please continue to reach out if there is anything else I can help you with. Nacci

 

[jotul 121]

I agree that these significant cracks are a result of overheating, which is easy to do on these stoves. I think it can be fixed but I think everything can be fixed. I would reiterate my previous bit of advice in that the whole stove would need to be disassembled which also means that it will need to be reassembled and that is not an easy thing to do. It all has to be done in a specific order and one must have the innate sense and experience to know how to put things back together. Your biggest challenge will be that crack on the deck/top. It looks like they continued to use the stove log after that crack occurred and as a result it deformed out. That is problematic because it will be very difficult to get it back into shape, at the very least the technique to fix that are will be advanced.

I would say that unless you are getting tis stove extremely cheap, 150-200 euro and you feel very confident in your ability to do the work necessary to bring it back then I would pass.

I'm not sure how plentiful these stoves are in France but if the price is right it would be worth buying as a parts stove. Also, look for Lange 911-W stoves, these also come from Denmark and are a real favorite of mine.

I hope that helped and please continue to reach out if there is anything else I can help you with. Nacci

Thank you for your help. I thought over it and let it pass, the stove is cheap (E150) but it´s condition is just not good at all.. I am not feeling confident to restore it. There are better finds for around E300-400 here but still rare to find a good one..

 

[begreen]

Thank you for your help. I thought over it and let it pass, the stove is cheap (E150) but it´s condition is just not good at all.. I am not feeling confident to restore it. There are better finds for around E300-400 here but still rare to find a good one..

Good idea. I would call that a strictly parts stove. You will be rewarded for your patience.