Jotul freestanding into zc

[polaris]

Hi folks. thanks for such an informative site. I've been burning for a long time and thought I knew all I needed to but I was incorrect and have learned a great deal from lurking around this site.
I am a bit concerned that some well intentioned misinformation has been circulated about freestanding stoves being connected to ZC fireplaces and that this misinformation,while well intended has been costing folks $ needlessly.
I have have a 10 yr. old 5000 sq.ft. house on 28 acres of old growth hardwood with an Oslo on the lower level and untill recently a ZC on the main floor. I had decided to install a Castine in front of the ZC. I read several posts on here claiming that this was not only illegal but virtually the "kiss of death". I contacted the largest stove dealer in the state and they said Jotul wood stoves were approved for use in ZC fireplaces. I was not convinced so I began to do a bit of research. I started with the dealer who assured me that with proper clearances and a liner it would be fine. However after reading so many postings to the contrary I was not convinced so I obtained a copy of the installers manual(not the manual that comes with the stove). The installers manual confirmed what I had been told. Still a bit sceptical I called Jotul corprate who also confirmed that as long as proper clearances were observed and a liner was used inside the double walled air cooled chimney without blocking airflow all would be fine. Still not fully convinced, I contacted the Bldg. inspecter who also confirmed this was not only a legal but safe instaltion(my insurance Co. agreed). So know I'm happily and safely running a Castine through a ZC fireplace. So I hope not to many have not spent 1000's more than they needed to as I was so close to doing. I only checked out Jotul though so if your going with another stove mfg. it would behoove you to check carefully. I am really pleased with this unit and it's performance and am now heating 4984 sq. with two Jotuls. (I hpoe this information may save some folks some $ in the future) I almost spent a couple of 1000$ needlesly because I wasn't ready to trust the the Jotul co. the installer or the dealer/bldg. inspecter.
Joe

 

[f700]

I went through the same thing you did and after contacting everyone you did, reading the installation manual, reading the manual with the stove, talking to Jotul, I did exactly what you did, ran a liner down through my ZC and connected my Castine. Couldn't be happier. Good luck with the stove. The way I looked at it was if I can put an insert into the ZC, I felt it was safer, as long as clearances were observed, to have the stove out in front so I could monitor what is going on better. What did you put behind the stove to cover the ZC opening? I have yet to figure out what to do here. I may just get black stove paint and paint the zc box.

 

[polaris]

I had the opening covered in a wonder board type product and the had 3m faux creek stone and mortar installed behind it 6' wide x 13.4' high and had a hearth constucted 1" thick stone with the short leg kit installed on the stove. Glad your's is working out well.
Joe

 

[jtp10181]

Its not tested or approved to be installed that way. That being said it makes no sense why it would not be safe if done correctly. We ran into a problem with a chimney sweep raising a stink about it locally so we will never do it again. I contacted Quad and got mixed answers. Once I finally talked to the technical supervisor I got a straight answer, its not tested, thus not allowed.

I would get a written statement from Jotul and the local inspector stating the installing is approved and for them to define what is required for it to be "safe". This way if you ever do try to sell your house or have a chimney sweep complaining about it you have some backup besides some word of mouth.

I have various documentation from the chimney sweep stating that it is in fact not approved to install "hearth stoves" through a ZC box unless specifically stated in the manual. Not sure where it ended up though.

 

[stoveguy13]

it is not even really approved for any insert on the market unless the chimney already has an HT listing as there is no liner product out there or testing to bring the chimney up to a HT standard the ul 1777 listing is only good for a masonary chimney

 

[webbie]

Hi folks. thanks for such an informative site.
Joe

The inspector in the field has a lot of leeway and can make such decisions. It would still be irresponsible for most of use here to say this can be done....except with a stove approved for such use. The problem is not a job done like yours, but as you can imagine...if you tell people it is OK to put a stove in front of a ZC, you will have:

1. Folks putting stoves on the hearth right in front of the ZC
2. Folks not upgrading their chimney in the proper way.

So although it is possible to do things "right" in some strange situations, it is not advisable as a policy (for me)....for instance, we never did this when I had my stove store. Most folks didn't have the room anyway (in front) to get the proper clearances and build a full hearth.

 

[polaris]

Its not tested or approved to be installed that way. That being said it makes no sense why it would not be safe if done correctly. We ran into a problem with a chimney sweep raising a stink about it locally so we will never do it again. I contacted Quad and got mixed answers. Once I finally talked to the technical supervisor I got a straight answer, its not tested, thus not allowed.

I would get a written statement from Jotul and the local inspector stating the installing is approved and for them to define what is required for it to be "safe". This way if you ever do try to sell your house or have a chimney sweep complaining about it you have some backup besides some word of mouth.

I have various documentation, from the chimney sweep stating that it is in fact not approved to install "hearth stoves" through a ZC box unless specifically stated in the manual. Not sure where it ended up though.

I have the Jotul install manual stating it is acceptable/safe and approved, I have the bldg. inspectors report saying the same and I have a fax from Jotul corporate confiming this. I feel my bases are adequately covered. In fact I think you would be hard pressed to find any stove install with more documentation than this one. I don't think the states largest stove retailer would jeprodize their livelyhood by doing an illegal/unsafe install. If I had not gone out of my way to research this I would have gone with the conventional wisdom and spent a couple 1000 $ more than I needed to. (as for the chimney sweep (me) complaining, he complains about everything.........just ask my wife)
Thanks again for the great site.
Joe

 

[jtp10181]

Page 4 of the Castine Manual

There are two types of chimneys suitable for the Jøtul F 400 :
1. A code-approved masonry chimney with a ceramic tile or listed steel flue liner.
2. A prefabricated chimney complying with the requirements for Type HT (2100°F) chimneys per UL 103 or ULC S629.

http://www.jotul.com/FileArchive/Te...F 400 Castine/Manual_F_400_USA_P01_180607.pdf

No where does it show or mention installing it through a ZC Box. I am not telling you that you cannot do it since you are pretty well on your way already. I am simply stating the facts for anyone else who reads this thread. A prefab 1700 deg listed prefab chimney does not fall into either of the two categories above.

 

[f700]

You need to see the dealer installation manual. It is clearly defined in that one.

 

[webbie]

You need to see the dealer installation manual. It is clearly defined in that one.

Amazing, because when I sold Jotul there was never such thing as a different "dealer" manual.

 

[f700]

Not trying to cause an issue, but in the 2006-2007 Jotul Installation and Planning guide, page 8, there is an entire section devoted to the installation / connection to a zero-clearance prefabricated fireplace. Under the Paragraph titled "Connection to Zero-Clearance Prefabricated Fireplace", it says Jotul freestanding models are approved for installation into a factory built fireplace wit the use of an HT chimney relining kit.

 

[webbie]

No issue - I am very interested in learning about all this stuff.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, but rather of testing and other such stuff. If you line the prefab chimney with HT, then the chimney is up to snuff. The problem then becomes the clearance of the stove and piping. The pipe concerns can probably be addressed with double wall connector. Then you just have the stove clearances and a new hearth to deal with. My thought is that a lot of folks do not have the room to build a hearth and maintain clearances.

In the end, this hardly involves putting a stove into a ZC. It involves converting a ZC chimney into an HT one - then installing a stove into the improved chimney.

My guess is that this would pass testing. I just was not aware that other manufacturers (than HearthStone) had done so.

 

[f700]

No problem. I was fortunate that I had room to do this. I built an oversized hearth to set the stove on. I added the rear heatshield for added protection. I put a Z-flex HT liner into my existing chimney and insulated it, and finally I added extra clearances, so all in all, I feel pretty safe. I agree, you can' just pop one in like man think you can do. You need to take the proper pre-cautions.

 

[webbie]

Something that I have not heard mentioned about the ZC linings is the treatment at the top - I think this is very critical because of a couple reasons:
1. I have seen a lot of ZC's with caps that are slip type and actually sit right on top of the sheet metal pan at chimney top - and the pan is directly on wood or plywood.
2. The cooling system of the original chimney (open on top).

I think some of the lining systems actually address these points directly with illustrations and instructions. I remember one that said the liner should be run straight up through a hole cut in the top of the existing cap....that made some sense.

 

[jtp10181]

Not trying to cause an issue, but in the 2006-2007 Jotul Installation and Planning guide, page 8, there is an eitre section devoted to the installation / connection to a zero-clearance prefabricated fireplace. Under the Paragraph titled "Connection to Zero-Clearance Prefabricated Fireplace", it says Jotul freestanding models are approved for installation into a factory built fireplace wit the use of an HT chimney relining kit.

Is that available online someplace? A lot of people come here looking to do this type of install and so far all I have seen approved was the Hearthstone, which limits options.

Sidebar: I just noticed the Jotul Castine manual says it was tested right down the road from the place I work at. Interesting. I had a guy come in once that worked an Intertek and was asking why HHT stopped testing there, which I had no idea.

 

[f700]

I do not know if it is awailable online. Like I said my dealer gave it to me. As far as the chimney goes, what I did to keep the air-cooling in working properly, I ran the liner down through the existing air cooled chimney. Put the top support on the liner. This fit perfectly around the inner 8" diameter chimney I had. I then cut about 2 inches off of the existing chimney rain cap portion where it slid into the old 8" chimney. Once this was done, I was able to reinstall the original cap onto the chimney system, thus keeping the outer air cooled wall still functioning. Works perfect and keeps everything neat. I did find on the internet a specialized cap that does the same thing.

 

[polaris]

Mine was installed in a nearly identical fashion. I can vouch for the accuracy of the information in the Jotul planning installation guide. I did have the zc covered in a wonder board type product and then covered in 3m cultured/faux stone and mortar,13.4'x6' and a stone hearth. The short leg kit was helpful in making the double wall pipe through zc possible. I may be off in my thinking but it seems to me that this type of install would almost be safer than some. HT insulated liner inside a 1700 rated pipe, surrounded by cooling air and then enclosed by a 3rd outer pipe. I could be wrong though. Joe

 

[f700]

My thoughts exactly. It does seem safer with the liner, insulation, the original flue, then the air cooled outer section. I can't see much getting through all that.

 

[jtp10181]

Yeah I agree, if done right it should be a very safe install. The problem with getting an official test or listing for this type of install is because every prefab system can be different. Technically every stove would have to be tested with every prefab unit. As stoveguy13 has brought up a few times even installing inserts into prefab units is sketchy. At least with the inserts I have the install manual to back me up with the Quad units. Apparently we can add Jotul to the list of stoves that have documentation backing up a ZC installtion.

 

[polaris]

Do all zc fireplaces have the same type of double walled air cooled flue pipe syatem?Are some only single wall? Do they have differant size flue pipes?
Joe

 

[jtp10181]

Some have double some have triple wall. Some are air cooled, some are insulated, some are both, some have two air cooling chambers that both do different things. Many are 8" but can also be just about any size larger than that also, we have some that are 11".