Ditch the ZC for freestanding woodstove or make a Montepellier II work...

[avionator]

I am thinking about abandoning my plan to install a Montpelier II in place of my current ZC. We really wanted the look of a fireplace, which is why I snapped up a lightly used VC Montpelier II on marketplace before doing enough research. It seems I will need to build a full masonry fireplace to install the Montpelier as my current ZC is not nearly large enough to fit it in place.

But I need some collective wisdom, since I don't want to make the same mistake again.

My current ZC is this model https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1424702/Selkirk-640-Zc40.html installed flush to wall.
Hearth is about 14 inches tall, maybe 16 inches deep and 60 inches wide.
Install would be on the first floor of our two story house with basement below.
1200sq ft first floor, 800ish second floor.
Install room is about 16x16 and has double-height (16ft) ceiling, fairly open floor plan.
Chimney is 22-24 feet from where stove vent would exit.
Home was built in 2002(ish) and generally exhibits quality workmanship (although not "inspired" workmanship).

I am open to significantly modifying our space to make something work. We hate the current look (I swear it's made from countertop remnants).
Should we keep the current hearth height? Eliminate it and bring it down to floor level? Should a stove "tuck" into where the ZC now sits, or just wall off and have stove proper distance from wall? Rear vent or top vent? What considerations are needed to use existing chimney?
We want to add the look of a chimney inside the house as well to build some character into our main living floor. Granite "veneer" stone about 5-6ft up capped with a mantel then just drywall (for weight and cost) the remaining 10-11ft to ceiling. This faux chimney would only need to be about 6 inches deep to create the effect, I think.

Our primary heating is a system of Haier ASHPs, but they aren't very efficient below -15F and won't keep up at all under -20F. We currently have an oil boiler and radiant fin-tube, but want to rip it out. Whatever we install won't get a huge amount of use, but it needs to be capable when it is called into service.

The VC Montpellier II we picked up cost just under $2k (MSRP is close to twice that). We like the look of Hearthstone units and Vermont Casting. We're located in NE New York (near Lake Placid) so both companies are pretty available in this market. I'm very open to other suggestions.

So, what do you all think? Simpler/better to ditch the VC Montpelier retrofit idea and use a freestanding woodstove? Or should I make it work?

 

[avionator]

Exterior view of chimney and snapped a picture of base of chimney for model info. Looks like I have a six inch ID tube, and I think most stove models support this, right?

 

[avionator]

My apologies for upside down Pic of model number on chimney.

 

[bholler]

Exterior view of chimney and snapped a picture of base of chimney for model info. Looks like I have a six inch ID tube, and I think most stove models support this, right?

View attachment 325846

View attachment 325847

So your zero clearance fireplace goes out to a tee??

 

[avionator]

Well, that's a good point actually. That same chase holds a chimney for our oil boiler. I need to measure and see if that cleanout belongs to the oil burner or the ZC. I presume the builders used the same chimney for each, but I don't know for certain as we are not the first owners of this home. I suppose I need to drop the plywood peice under that exterior portion of the chase and take a look.

 

[bholler]

Well, that's a good point actually. That same chase holds a chimney for our oil boiler. I need to measure and see if that cleanout belongs to the oil burner or the ZC. I presume the builders used the same chimney for each, but I don't know for certain as we are not the first owners of this home. I suppose I need to drop the plywood peice under that exterior portion of the chase and take a look.

It would be completely wrong if it did go out to a tee. I also doubt it's 6".

In your fireplaces manual it pretty clearly says you can't modify it or use any unapproved accessories. So an insert isn't allowed

 

[avionator]

yup, confirmed with measuring tape: that T is for the oil-burner. Yeah, my insert wouldn't fit within the ZC anyway.

 

[avionator]

bholler, what makes you doubt that it is 6"? The model number on the support for that T is a 6t-wsk which seems to be associated with a 6" wall support kit. Am I wrong in thinking that wouldn't translate to a 6" tube? FWIW the chimneys both appear to be identical at their respective chimney caps. I will try to inspect closer (need to get out my tall ladder to do so).

 

[bholler]

bholler, what makes you doubt that it is 6"? The model number on the support for that T is a 6t-wsk which seems to be associated with a 6" wall support kit. Am I wrong in thinking that wouldn't translate to a 6" tube? FWIW the chimneys both appear to be identical at their respective chimney caps. I will try to inspect closer (need to get out my tall ladder to do so).

The majority of fireplaces like yours are atleast 8"

 

[bholler]

yup, confirmed with measuring tape: that T is for the oil-burner. Yeah, my insert wouldn't fit within the ZC anyway.

Well if it won't fit in the fireplace I don't know what the question is.

 

[30WCF]

I like the look of my pipe coming out the stove and going through the roof. Like you suggested, a stone veneer could look nice. I have thought about that for mine as well. I did put up a mantel out of an old rough cut timber.
I had a large stove, now a smaller stove…

I vote for removal of the raised hearth, stone or brick veneer or not, a mantel would look nice. Drop a freestanding stove in and go straight out the roof.
That poses a question about what the second story looks like. Is that somewhere you could hide the class A in a chase, or is it unfinished in that portion? I have an abandoned 6” masonry chimney that was from an old, crawl space, oil burner in the 50’s, buried behind the wall, 24” from my stove that I chose not to use since I only had attic space above.

You could still go free standing (ember protected only requirement on some stoves) and do a 90 to intercept your 6” in the existing chimney with a thimble through the wall.
I think for efficiency most will recommend a free standing stove of some sort over a fireplace or ZC.
If your options are ZC or the insert you bought, then ZC it is in your situation. If I read correctly that you are willing to rebuild, then let’s rebuild. If I’m spending your money, I want a nice ember protection only free standing wood stove, veneer, and a mantel beam.
(Pssstt, I’m eyeballing the BK Ashford 20 for my next one.)

 

[avionator]

while i like the look of exposed pipe, i think we'll have to 90 it into the existing chimney. Should be less expensive for us and doesn't require modifying the building envelope in any way. Yes, I am willing to modify our space but hoping to not completely redesign. I think i agree with ditching the raised hearth, it will allow us to move more freely around a freestanding unit.

 

[jjam]

I am thinking about abandoning my plan to install a Montpelier II in place of my current ZC. We really wanted the look of a fireplace, which is why I snapped up a lightly used VC Montpelier II on marketplace before doing enough research. It seems I will need to build a full masonry fireplace to install the Montpelier as my current ZC is not nearly large enough to fit it in place.

But I need some collective wisdom, since I don't want to make the same mistake again.

My current ZC is this model https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1424702/Selkirk-640-Zc40.html installed flush to wall.
Hearth is about 14 inches tall, maybe 16 inches deep and 60 inches wide.
Install would be on the first floor of our two story house with basement below.
1200sq ft first floor, 800ish second floor.
Install room is about 16x16 and has double-height (16ft) ceiling, fairly open floor plan.
Chimney is 22-24 feet from where stove vent would exit.
Home was built in 2002(ish) and generally exhibits quality workmanship (although not "inspired" workmanship).

I am open to significantly modifying our space to make something work. We hate the current look (I swear it's made from countertop remnants).
Should we keep the current hearth height? Eliminate it and bring it down to floor level? Should a stove "tuck" into where the ZC now sits, or just wall off and have stove proper distance from wall? Rear vent or top vent? What considerations are needed to use existing chimney?
We want to add the look of a chimney inside the house as well to build some character into our main living floor. Granite "veneer" stone about 5-6ft up capped with a mantel then just drywall (for weight and cost) the remaining 10-11ft to ceiling. This faux chimney would only need to be about 6 inches deep to create the effect, I think.

Our primary heating is a system of Haier ASHPs, but they aren't very efficient below -15F and won't keep up at all under -20F. We currently have an oil boiler and radiant fin-tube, but want to rip it out. Whatever we install won't get a huge amount of use, but it needs to be capable when it is called into service.

The VC Montpellier II we picked up cost just under $2k (MSRP is close to twice that). We like the look of Hearthstone units and Vermont Casting. We're located in NE New York (near Lake Placid) so both companies are pretty available in this market. I'm very open to other suggestions.

So, what do you all think? Simpler/better to ditch the VC Montpelier retrofit idea and use a freestanding woodstove? Or should I make it work?

View attachment 325838 View attachment 325839 View attachment 325840

you have to remove fireplace and chimney and install zero clearance wood

 

[bigealta]

My vote, Free standing wood stove. on the floor.

 

[avionator]

any thoughts on alcove installation? sketched a quick design and i think the woodstove would look best (for our situation) partially tucked in. I've been exploring the Hearthstone line and like the units with the "oven style" side load door that prevents ash from falling on your hearth. The stove would have to either have enough clearance for that door or only be tucked a little into the alcove so that the door can still open.

I would build the alcove out of non-combustible materials (granite facing over cement-board supported by steel studs insulated with mineral wool or similar). I feel this would allow me a lot of design freedom in terms of how close the walls of the alcove can be to the woodstove, though I can only find clearance info for combustible walls or protected walls. I presume that means there are no clearance issues with non-combustible surfaces. Am I interpreting that correctly?

 

[jjam]

any thoughts on alcove installation? sketched a quick design and i think the woodstove would look best (for our situation) partially tucked in. I've been exploring the Hearthstone line and like the units with the "oven style" side load door that prevents ash from falling on your hearth. The stove would have to either have enough clearance for that door or only be tucked a little into the alcove so that the door can still open.

I would build the alcove out of non-combustible materials (granite facing over cement-board supported by steel studs insulated with mineral wool or similar). I feel this would allow me a lot of design freedom in terms of how close the walls of the alcove can be to the woodstove, though I can only find clearance info for combustible walls or protected walls. I presume that means there are no clearance issues with non-combustible surfaces. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Yes , but you might affect the stove Warranty, you would look to the manufacturer for guidance

 

[avionator]

Yes , but you might affect the stove Warranty, you would look to the manufacturer for guidance

Good point. The clearance charts for Hearthstone seem to often refer to the nfpa-211 for "protected surface" clearance but as far as I can find in that document it doesn't specify for non-combustible anywhere. I've heard that company has decent customer service and would place a call to them before any purchase.

I'm learning a ton here. Wish I'd learned it before buying the used VC insert that will be a bear to install if I choose to go that route. I'd consider wrapping it with several inches of ceramic fiber matt, but if things go badly with fire I could kill my family and lose our home and insurance may not pick up the tab... all valid reasons to stick to the code, I suppose.

 

[jjam]

Good point. The clearance charts for Hearthstone seem to often refer to the nfpa-211 for "protected surface" clearance but as far as I can find in that document it doesn't specify for non-combustible anywhere. I've heard that company has decent customer service and would place a call to them before any purchase.

I'm learning a ton here. Wish I'd learned it before buying the used VC insert that will be a bear to install if I choose to go that route. I'd consider wrapping it with several inches of ceramic fiber matt, but if things go badly with fire I could kill my family and lose our home and insurance may not pick up the tab... all valid reasons to stick to the code, I suppose.

Please fallow the codes , if you need help , with information, let me know I have been installing for 30 years

 

[stoveliker]

Personally I would avoid alcoves - but I'm more of a function over form (aesthetics) person...

I believe that if a manual does not mention anything regarding alcove installs, it might be problematic to do so. There was a recent thread here about precisely that issue - I can't find the one (longer than these) that I was looking for, but some useful info here as well:

Another alcove build advice and input

Good Afternoon all, I am new hear as a member but have been using the site for a month or two for information. I am currently in the process of building our first home from the ground up in Lewisburg TN, My family and I recently freed ourselves from California. In our new home we will be...

www.hearth.com

Homestead install alcove ceiling

Howdy folks, Long time listener, first time caller here. I’m in the middle an alcove build in my single-story rancher for a Hearthstone Homestead with a Selkirk Supervent flue system. I’ve maintained all clearance to combustibles for alcove install as outlined by my stove’s manual. The ceiling...

www.hearth.com

The point is that if it's not mentioned in the manual, you can't install in an alcove smaller than some size.
There is a gray area with protruding stove (half alcoves) etc. but given safety and insurance coverage I'd steer away from gray areas.

Back to safety: in principle if *nothing* combustible is in the wall (metal stud, cement board, tile) then clearances are met. (But that does not say anything about alcoves.)

 

[stoveliker]

It's this one:

Converting an open hearth to stove in (combustible) alcove

I had some trouble finding examples of people who had done this conversion. I don’t claim to know the codes where you live - I shared my plans with my local town inspector, got permits, and scheduled inspections at the requested intervals. For me, this was relatively cheap insurance in case I...

www.hearth.com

See BKVP's post; some issue with UL listing, clarity of clearances, and resulting changes.
I.e. most stoves now need retesting (expensive) before being cleared for alcove installation.
Hence: if your manual does not say anything about alcoves, it's likely not officially allowed.
One can do it, given your building method, but while the walls are safe, you also have to think about the stove needing to be able to shed its heat. I think the VCs are quite radiant (no convective jacket), so the heat shedding to all sides is high (rather than done by air flow to the front).

I think that's how far my knowledge goes - bholler or begreen know much more. I hope this is a start (that's not wrong...)