I really dont drive at all. My wife does, but very little. Id like to think we are saving emissions by less driving.
K.I.S.S......
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I can understand and respect that opinion. The problem I see is that most people who share your opinion really have no basis for comparison. They have never used and usually don't understand modern stoves. And that leads to lots of false assumptions
Thats very true, I have never been around a modern stove, so I have no clue how to operate it. Im sure I could figure it out quick enough. One thing about modern stoves is they are mostly NICE to look at, and they work for those who own them. My house is very old, our decoration theme for the whole house is Old Country I guess youd call it. Antiques abound at my abode.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
There are classically looking stoves with modern efficiency. Of course "classically looking" is a subjective assessment.
Check out the PE Alderlea line. They do very well with rustic or country furnishings.
There are several modern stoves that look like old ones. Moroso jotul and Vermont castings come to mind.
And honestly you don't have to pay allot for a nice modern stove if you watch the used market and are patient. I have never paid more than $1000 for any of the dozen or so stoves I have used. I then sell them usually for the same or more than I paid after 5 years or so. That way I get experience with lots of stoves.
My piece of junk does me just fine. Was 55 in here this morning, got a fire going, it was 65 in about an hour. I appreciate all the concern, but Im juus trying to survive on very little money. I cant afford $3000 to 10000 on a stove and flue. I have about 900 in mine, is it junk? Probably. But its paid for, it works, and itll keep me from Big Oil............
The problem I have isn't so much with the stove you have. It's the fact that you don't have a chimney. You have connector pipe. How much will you be saving if you burn your house down because of that?
I can have the stove at the top of the "good" range, and the stove pipe outside is barely warm. In my mind, if I keep it clean, ie monthly i should be ok. None of us knows what will happen, if we did we could stop it from happening. Am I on thin ice? You bet, but in all honesty, I cant afford a new chimney. Out of curiosity, how much would a real chimney cost me? Im thinking 1500 to 2000. 2 90 elbows, and about 20 foot of pipe?
You don't need 2 chimney 90s they aren't even made. You would need a tee, tee support. Wall passthrough whatever length pipe needed a couple wall supports and a cap. Looks like $1000 to $1500 for the lower cost chimneys. Considerably more for premium ones
Do I know that your setup will cause a fire? No of course not. Would I sleep in a house or let my family live in a house with a "chimney" like yours? Absolutely not. The risk is just to high
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
Nicely said. I tend toward the same. I get a chuckle out of the threads of people running "firmware updates" on their pellet stoves, but they're probably laughing at the amount of wood I need to process and load. To each their own.
The cat itself certainly doesn't change anything, but the possibility to shut down inlet air certainly helps one counter excessive draft much better than a stove without this ability. Speaking only for my BK Ashfords, I had no controllability issues with 3.5x the "maximum allowable" draft on one of my chimneys. I could easily get it right down to black box mode from any state, no issue.
That said, there were other problems which caused me to want to correct the high draft. Chief among them were poorer installed efficiency, and fly ash-clogged combustors. But controllability itself was not an issue.
I understand this sentiment completely. Heck, I wanted to keep most of my fireplaces open when I moved in, even talked about removing the one wood stove that was installed, to get back to an open hearth. And when I did start considering stoves, it was in this "dumb box of iron" mentality that you share with my former self. But a short time of operating (even a relatively poor) modern EPA stove made me realize how much I was missing, in terms of better efficiency, better controllability, longer burn time... and without any new operator complexity.
Sure, the new stoves are more complex, but that has no impact on the operator than the inner workings of my teenager's iPhone has on his daily use of it. KISS to the operator is not the same as lack of tech. A well-engineered modern wood stove should be easier to burn cleanly and properly than any older tech.
What happens when you have a small. Glass or door gasket leak when draft is that high. I have seen plenty stoves destroyed by that issue and a thermostatic control won't change that. But in that case no one was talking about a blaze king so the thermostatic control doesn't enter into the discussion at all.
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stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I think it was not a Tstat remark, but the fact that a cat stove (or at least ashfuls cat stove) can dial down the air more than a tube stove. This is because of the EPA regulations that limit turn down to avoid polluting smoldering - but a cat stove can run lower than a tube stove.and still do so cleanly. Therefore the allowed turn down of the air is larger. Hence overdraft is more easily controlled with a cat stove with larger turndown.
I do agree with the 'if leak, then big problems still occur ".
I do agree with the 'if leak, then big problems still occur ".
Any stove is designed to turn down to a specific level at a given draft. If you double or triple that draft there is no way you will get proper turndown. Will it overfire? Probably less of a chance of that with a cat stove for sure but there will still be controllability issues
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Good point. I was primed for failure, if anything else went wrong, with such strong draft.
In my case, it showed up first as too-frequently clogged combustors, which put me onto chasing and correcting the problem with a key damper. Luckily that happened before any of the gaskets were aged enough to come into play on this, in my particular case.
On the subject, the EPA is doing homeowners a gross disservice by not allowing manufacturers to recommend key dampers for the sole purpose of optimizing draft. It creates a dangerous situation, when perhaps the majority of 2-story colonial chimneys that are so ubiquitous in our very-populous northeast corridor, have massively too much draft for stoves designed to pass a test on a 15 foot chimney in Florida.
Just a question, and I dont want to start a whole thread, but what is too much draft? I guess a waste of wood for one. Im new to this for the most part, so dont mind the newbie question.
To. Much draft will result in short burn times loss of efficiency and possible over firing. That can damage the stove, the chimney, and cause excessive temps leading to safety issues
Thanks for the info. I guess you can have too much of a good thing. As crappy as it is, my stove drafts too much sometimes. Other times its hard to get a fire going, due to temps. It was 59 the other day, and 64 in the house. Fire just would not go. Thats the only reason I have an oil furnace. Does that make sense that it wont draft good when its warm out? I guess its a Temp. thing, and it was windy that day.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Yes, draft is due to temperature difference between inside and outside. Warmer air will rise in the flue, thus sucking air into the stove. If it's too warm out, the air in the chimney won't have enough buoyancy to float up. So not enough draft.
Also a short chimney will decrease draft.
You had both, warm outside, and short chimney. (And a chimney (ahem) that allows a lot of cooling of the gases in it.)
Also a short chimney will decrease draft.
You had both, warm outside, and short chimney. (And a chimney (ahem) that allows a lot of cooling of the gases in it.)
LOL....thats a good one! I feel safe due to cleaning the pipe, normal day time burns, no over nighters, I dont do the top own method either. The pipe is warm , if that, the exhaust coming out is barely hot, Its all new....and the fireboard around and under the stove get pretty warm. I guess Im taking our lives in my hands, but I think ill be good to go. Wait til spring.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Some stove manufacturers (but it seems not all) list acceptable and/or optimum draft conditions, but unfortunately many more do not. When they're listed, they seem to be generally under 0.10" water column.
@begreen and @BKVP could say much more about this than I know, but it seems test standards encourage stove manufacturers to optimize performance for very low draft (eg. 0.05" water column), which results in the masses of our woodburning public living in the typical 2-story colonial in a northern climate to operate with much higher than optimum draft.
Too-strong draft can create control problems in some stoves, exacerbate the danger of any malfunction, or just cause less than optimum efficiency.
@begreen and @BKVP could say much more about this than I know, but it seems test standards encourage stove manufacturers to optimize performance for very low draft (eg. 0.05" water column), which results in the masses of our woodburning public living in the typical 2-story colonial in a northern climate to operate with much higher than optimum draft.
Too-strong draft can create control problems in some stoves, exacerbate the danger of any malfunction, or just cause less than optimum efficiency.
I dont see how packing a stove to the gills, then firing it up, then going to bed is safe? That seems dangerous to me. I have oil heat for the late nights, but mainly wood. And I honestly dont se how the top down method is any better than old Boy Scout tee-pee. I can have a fire going and almost up to temp, faster than it would take just to pile up a top down method. To those use it, thats good, but why mess with an old method that even kids can do?
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
If your stove and chimney system are good, packing the stove and proper turn down is perfectly safe - and gives the longest heat.
Top down heats secondary reburn faster for quicker decrease in emissions, and more heat for your home. Also no need to open up to add wood. Just load, start top down, turn down in half an hour and walk away.
For my stove that walk away time varies from 8-10 to up to 36 hrs, depending on how much heat I need. Start and don't bother with the fire for 10 hrs. Ideal.
Top down heats secondary reburn faster for quicker decrease in emissions, and more heat for your home. Also no need to open up to add wood. Just load, start top down, turn down in half an hour and walk away.
For my stove that walk away time varies from 8-10 to up to 36 hrs, depending on how much heat I need. Start and don't bother with the fire for 10 hrs. Ideal.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
There is some inherent danger in it, yes. As @stoveliker said, a good stove and properly maintained, it will stay under predictable control and temperatures.
But things can (and do) go wrong. That's where observing proper installation, proper clearances and proper chimney pipe all come into play. If you are following all clearances and installation requirements, then even a single failure or operator error should not cause catastrophe.
Ok, I see what you mean, Im serious. But what is a "proper" installation? One that works, or one you pay big bucks for? And I know family safety, all of that. But when I load the herd up to go to the store, Im risking life and limb, from my driving I guess, but its the other driver you got worry about. Im a good driver, yet I could still be killed just like anyone else. I dont live my life in fear. I have zero debt, I make it month to moth, and Im happy. A Lot of people on here dont like that Im doing the same as they are, which is heating a house, but Im doing it free.
