King 40 Install

[Quirke]

The King 40 is getting close to being functional, but my installer has run into a snag. The adapter in the ceiling support that should join the exterior stainless steel to the black double wall does not fit snuggly to the double wall.


I sent pictures to the dealer, who contacted the supplier Olympia Chimney Canada, or Ventis, or SBI - not sure how they structured. They note that the box should come down further through the ceiling, but seem confused why the adapter isn't coming through the box more.


It looks like it's through as far as possible, and the exterior pipe is very snug, but on the double wall side it's very loose and only goes about an inch deep. It's like the adapter is an inch too short on the double wall side. The double wall is definitely the correct orientation and fits the stove adapter on the other end well.


Any ideas what's going on here?

My installer will give them a call tomorrow and try to see if he can get some more detailed instructions about how the parts are supposed to go together because their instructions aren't providing any clues.

 

[Quirke]

I think I may have an explanation. I think the two sections of pipe were put together in the wrong orientation as there's screw holes on the same end, and none on the other, suggesting one set is for the ceiling adapter and the other for the stove side adapter.
Also the two sections are now so tightly bound together that they can't be pulled apart by two people.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

that will do it.

 

[Quirke]

They got it apart this morning, but say that's the only way the two pieces could possibly go together, so back to thinking an adapter is missing.

 

[Tron]

They got it apart this morning, but say that's the only way the two pieces could possibly go together, so back to thinking an adapter is missing.

Not surprising, because that's the way mine is, too. The upper holes are to fix the thing to the ceiling box and the lower ones are to fix the length of the extension once installed.
But mine looks similar, I think there's also only an inch coming out of the ceiling box, but my pipe is snug against it and secured with the screws. At least we don't have any smoke spillage there.
FWIW, that's actually not a very good solution, because when driving the screws in it will create sharp points on the inside of the outer pipe, which then creates visible scratches all along the inner pipe when you collapse it again to clean. Ask me how I know...

 

[Quirke]

They got the adapter to come further through the ceiling support box and were able to get the pipe on nice and snug.
First fire on Saturday. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas.

 

[Quirke]

I couldn't wait until Saturday morning and fired up the stove this evening.

Thank you to everyone here who has shared their experience and knowledge of these stoves.

I'd have freaked out over the off gassing smoke and fumes from the paint curing if I wasn't prepared for it. Thankfully the smoke detectors didn't go off.

The cat thermometer is 360° around from zero as expected from a new overactive cat.

I know these stoves are meant to throttle down to a smolder for efficiency, but I can't get over how slowly they burn even when turned all the way up. Watching the wood smolder without glowing coals at the 3 o'clock position made me uneasy.

I started with a half load of 2 year dried poplar to break in the stove. After a couple of hours at the 4 o'clock position most of it was still there and some of the bottom pieces were barely charred.


I'm getting glowing coals and minimal flames at 5 o'clock, and some yellow/blue flames at full 6 o'clock. The chimney is at least 16' straight up (4'+ double wall stove to the ceiling, then 12ft Class A insulated) and the house is right on the cusp of the 15' and 15.5' minimum recommendations.

My Jotul F600 would have devoured that half load in an hour, even with the damper all the way down, but it had 10' more pipe sucking air through it.

After a few hours I added more poplar to fill the stove and then turned the thermostat to max to see what the stove can put out. Visually it doesn't seem more active despite fresh wood and greater surface area. The temperature in the house has slowly climbed from 18C to 19C.
I'm a little concerned that this stove will have trouble keeping up when it's -20C to -30C. It's currently -5C, but was -20C this morning so there's some thermal mass to recover. The house is 1200sqft with 20' vaulted ceilings attached to a 450sqft addition with 8' ceilings. The two new doors in the addition aren't sealed up yet so there's some minor (very) cold air intrusion. It'll be -20C again tomorrow night so I should have some informative cold weather data to compare to the current mild conditions.

Am I likely in need of more pipe to increase the draft and heat output, or is the thermostat possibly limiting airflow to prevent overfiring, and it's holding back a bit of reserve that would becoming accessible with colder indoor or outdoor temperatures?

The Jotul was rated to 49,500 BTUs, which is certainly more than the max 38,500 of the King 40, but so far it feels like a greater disparity.

 

[stoveliker]

I have much more flame at high throttle than you describe.

 

[moresnow]

Post a pic of a fresh load with the loading door open prior to ignition.

Are you running the stove fans on low when trying to disperse the stove generated heat?

Keep in mind that very minute thermostat knob adjustments can have a profound effect on stove operation/output.
Finding the relatively small swing of usable adjustment that matches your install parameters can take time and patience.
And coffee.
And snacks.........

 

[Murray01]

After a reload how long are you leaving the thermostat dial on maximum?

Here’s my Princess after a hot reload, thermostat dial on maxim.

 

[GG Woody]

^^^ Same here, and the fire reacts very noticeably within 30 seconds, especially turned all the way up.

I've only burned poplar on a campfire. (And don't like it even for that) I've never thought of using it inside. Have you had good results with poplar before?

 

[Quirke]

I don't know that I'll be able to get a hot reload picture with the door open.
I didn't get any smoke rolling out into the house during loading, quite the opposite, I was loading as quickly as possible because it was quickly turning into an inferno and it takes a minute to get that many pieces situated. It took off so quickly that I used both welding gloves for the morning load instead of just using the usual right hand.

My photo of glowing coals with small flames was probably around the 5 o'clock position. The paint was smoking/off gassing so much that I didn't want to run it wide open for more than a few minutes.

The 4-5 position I left it on overnight kept the house at a perfect 19-20°C. Startup was around 6pm with a partial load and then I stuffed it full around 9pm. There were a few pieces that were still only slightly burned and lots of hot coals when I loaded this morning at around 9am. I'm mightly impressed with the evenness of the heat production and the efficiency.



We have both large tooth aspen (poplar) and small tooth white aspen, plus their hybrids . I have two 20' diameter trees worth of the large tooth which is said to have a bit more energy density than the small tooth. People say it burns quick and hot, but I haven't found it to be hot compared to sugar maple, oak, or birch.
It was wonderful in shoulder season in the Jotul when we'd just need to bump the temperature up 4°C once or twice a day, but it didn't tolerate the dampener being turned all the way down unless there was a full load to provide lots of surface area and heat. MC was 12-13% so it wasn't losing much heat to evaporation. It also smells like garbage when you split it and when you burn it, and it produces lots of ash. This area had a large forest fire about 80 to 90 years ago so there are many large poplars that are nearing end of life. There are close to a dozen on my property that have either snapped or are going to fall in the near future so it's my priority harvest species. A half day's heat off of a full load of plentiful garbage wood is fantastic.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'll need good hardwood when it gets properly cold, but it would be fantastic if the poplar can pull it off, albeit with more frequent reloads.

I don't have the fan kit for the stove, it's $700 CDN. For now it's just a cheap stove top pelltier fan that came with the Jotul.
The washer and dryer that are waiting to be installed are currently to one side of the hearth and are probably blocking some cool airflow along the floor to the stove, but the ceiling fan on the vaulted ceiling doesn't seem to have any trouble pulling the warm stove air out into the rest of the house. It's definitely warmer a few feet in front of the stove, but the rest of the house feels evenly warm. I can walk all the way around the stove and the surrounding walls/area are not overly warm so I don't think the thermostat is unnecessarily throttling back like it might in an alcove. I also have the air intake kit drawing air from the sealed (spray foamed walls, mostly dirt floor) crawlspace below.

I'm still running an exhaust fan in a bathroom to clear out the last of the off gas fumes, it's just about all gone now. There's still two doors to be properly installed and spray foamed so it'll still be awhile before I have stable conditions to dial in the stove settings.

Thanks for all of the help and suggestions!

 

[moresnow]

I asked for a pic of a fresh load because more often than not, new BK owners/users are not completely stuffing the stove. Many will talk of doing reloads often?

Indicates they are running a BK in an old school fashion by chucking a few splits in every now and then. There next complaint is what to do with the massive amount of coals in the way!

The old school smoke dragon feeding method won't fly with a BK as well as doing infrequent, complete full loads/batch's that need almost zero attention throughout the burn cycle.

I'd grab a fan kit. You will be surprised at the heat dispersion efficiency.

Good luck with fine tuning!
My opinions only! Let us know how things are working out.

 

[Quirke]

About 10 minutes after a reload with the thermostat on max - lots of wood still hasn't caught because I packed it tightly, but it's definitely flamed up nicely so I think there's plenty of draft.


Temps are dropping outside and the house is staying a perfect 20°C.

I've been fighting the urge to open the door, stir the coals, redistribute the unburnt pieces, and throw a few more pieces on the fire all day. Old habits die hard, even if they're only a year old lol.

 

[Quirke]

I learned last night that in the house's current condition the stove needs full throttle when it's -20°C with -30°C windchill and loaded with poplar as it wasn't quite keeping up. Nonetheless, it was still very comfortable in the house.... until the newly installed back door that hasn't been foamed yet, and only has one latch (no deadbolt), warped enough to swing open at 6:15am.

7 hours into a 5-5:30 burn on poplar and there was at least a few more hours still in it. Wow.
Temperature recovery on max is also pretty decent, and supports the notion that fine adjustments have significant impacts. Who knew you guys were so insightful? 😉 Thanks for pointing that out!

I'm going to try some white birch tonight, though it won't be quite as cold.

What are people's thoughts on the effectiveness of Pelltier fans? I have a cheap Tomerson 4 blade that doesn't feel like it moves much air, but it's definitely conducting heat to the the fins, so at the very least it's increasing surface area for heat dissipation.
I know they're not going to hold a candle to the fan kit, but presumably they'll be helpful at all times, not just in extreme cold when I need a bit more from the stove.
A second cheap Tomersun for the other side to match? Or are the slightly more expensive ones (Ecofan) worthwhile? A second Pelltier fan could conceivably be a last minute Christmas or B-Day present, the fan kit not so much.

 

[moresnow]

You may be better served by placing a small desktop sized fan or two in cold parts of the house. Direct the cool floor level air towards your stove. Normally this will displace the warm stove room air and generate a convection loop of sorts. I use two in my home and believe it indeed does work.
Worth some consideration.

 

[stoveliker]

I have a ecofan but it doesn't do much.
It's a toy and shows me how hot the stove top is.
That's all

 

[GG Woody]

Stove top fans look cool, they give me a warm feeling inside...
I keep 2 on our Sirocco. Since they are fan blades that are spinning, it is impossible for them to do nothing?

It's amazing how little of an adjustment it takes to make a difference with the t-stat.

 

[Murray01]

My older “Princess and a Half” the t-stat wasn’t near as sensitive than the new Princess. With the new stove I feel likes it’s a micro dial, a minute of angle adjustment make a big difference inside the firebox.

For those of you wondering what a Princess and a Half is it’s BK Canadian edition manufactured 1995 with a 7” stovepipe collar and it has a bigger firebox. Early indications it’s wasn’t as efficient as the newer model.

 

[Quirke]

You may be better served by placing a small desktop sized fan or two in cold parts of the house. Direct the cool floor level air towards your stove. Normally this will displace the warm stove room air and generate a convection loop of sorts. I use two in my home and believe it indeed does work.
Worth some consideration.

I used one last year in the evenings to draw cold air from the mainfloor guest bedrooms towards the Jotul, which was centrally located, during the coldest weeks. The two bedrooms would be quite cold compared to the rest of the house so I'd run the stove, desk fans, and ceiling fans on max to distribute as much heat as possible throughout the house. Before bed I'd close the bedroom doors to compartmentalize them from the rest of the house. Then set the ceiling fan to turn off after 4 hours so that when the stove went cold the air would stop mixing and the heat would rise to our loft bedroom.

The heat distribution is so much better with the new addition upgrades and the BK - I've only been using the ceiling fan on low to help mix air in the large vaulted ceiling space. I'm sure the crawlspace changes are causing this, between the forced air furnace ductwork, fully sealing the crawlspace with closed cell foam, and the BK air intake through the floor to the crawlspace. Cold air should be drawn down there by the BK intake.

Visuals always help, excuse the mess.

Yesterday with the stove at 5 o'clock it was comfortably warm walking around and behind the stove. Now with it having been on max for about 6 hours, to recover from the open door, it's noticeably warmer in behind so I've aimed the desk fan to blow cooler air into the back corner. It's definitely helping to get heat out of there.

Where are people placing their fans?

I just used some dog fluff to learn that the 'scoops' at the back draw air from the front of the stove, along the convection deck, and release it up through the tiny slots at the very back edge. Should my fan go as far back as possible so that it draws the hot air coming from the little slots? Or move it forward so it doesn't interfere with air being drawn into the scoops?

 

[moresnow]

Wow. Beauty place. What a view.

Not sure if your stove top fan placement is terribly important. Those fans are not really well known for their usable output!
Kinda fun to watch however.

Looks like chasing the heat out of that far corner install location is the ticket.
Good luck. Enjoy

 

[Quirke]

Thanks again for the help!

 

[BKVP]

Our dual fans will really help push the heat out and away from the stove. They will also accelerate the burn rate...(shorten burn times).

BKVP

 

[Tron]

Not sure if your stove top fan placement is terribly important. Those fans are not really well known for their usable output!

No, not really. They work on either a thermoelectric generator or a stirling engine.
Thermodynamics dictate that energy can only be harvested from a temperature difference. And since the fans do get heated up nicely at the base, they lack an effective cooling system for the cold side, so the temperature difference isn't great. So if they produce one or two Watts, that's pretty good for what it is. For effective air movement, that's insufficient.

@Quirke, they are mostly ornamental, but the powered fans that are available for the BK's really do a good job as they direct airflow over the heated surfaces and then out into the room. Right where it needs to be. A desk/box fan can help, but it's ugly and not as effective.

But even so, I suspect your ceiling is likely eating up a lot of heat. I suspect it's likely 10C warmer up there than near the floor, even with the ceiling fan running.

 

[Quirke]

I suspect your ceiling is likely eating up a lot of heat. I suspect it's likely 10C warmer up there than near the floor, even with the ceiling fan running.

I've tested the temperature differential between the loft and the mainfloor with and without the fan. There are actually two more identical fans - one over the top landing of the loft (just out of sight in the photo) which can help circulate air in the main space, and another in the bedroom which is more closed closed off by walls but open at the ceiling.

Without the fans the temperature differential is close to 10C as you surmised, slightly more when the Jotul was running too much, slightly less when cooled down. You could feel the temperature strata going up and down the stairs.

With the main fan on low there was less than 5C, and at higher settings it's a few degrees at most. The HVAC system and crawlspace intake now make it so that there's minimal differential with just the main fan on low. The thermometer resides on the mainfloor close to the white fridge on the left side, out of direct air flow and a good 30+ft away from the stove.

So far I'm overall pleased with the heat distribution, even if it seems that too much is currently trapped around the stove and seemingly causing it to throttle back its performance. The washer and dryer near the stove are blocking a lot of heat and air flow - I made a gap for air from the fan to run along the wall and noticed a big improvement. They'll be installed soon and out of the way. The hearth still needs to be tiled and the walls behind the stove are going to be cultured ledgestone eventually so there's still significant changes coming to the setup.

If the stove continues to keep the temperature at the thermometer at 19-20C without the fan kit I'll be thrilled. We'll see if that changes in January and February.