Large unique home at 8200ft in the Colorado foothills

[Latviski]

Hey all,

I've been reading through the forums for a couple of months so I'm not uninformed and I genuinely appreciate all the information shared by each and every one of you; here's my situation:
I live in an approximately 6000sq ft 2 story very open floorplan home in the foothills of Colorado (Evergreen specifically). It's a passive solar home, with literally a first floor of floor to ceiling windows -absolutely amazing views of the front range 14ers, but obviously a tremendous heat loss when the sun isn't out. I'll post pictures when I have a moment, but essentially I have a Frank Lloyd Wright style home at elevation including a 120' rock wall housing three previous heatilator fireplaces - one has been swapped to a propane fired fireplace by previous owners, and in the other two I installed two Pacific Energy Super LE inserts (one upstairs, one downstairs). I do love the inserts but they simply cannot make a dent in more than the immediate area surrounding them even with 3 year dried wood I felled, bucked, and split.
In short - I have 25+ acres of wooded land, endless wood, grew up with a chainsaw and maul in my hand, and am planning to heat as much as possible with wood as the only other option is the electric baseboard heat which takes my electric bill from 120 a month in the summer to almost 1000 a month in the winter. After installing the two Pacific Energy Super LE inserts I was able to temper the bill down to about 300-400/month but the home is still in the 50s-60s on cloudy days. On sunny days the upstairs can get close to 70 degrees when it's 20 outside but winter days are short!
Bottom line - I'm in the market for a LARGE wood stove for the first floor (other floor is a walk out basement as half the house is underground/built into a mountain). Options I've considered:
1) PE Summit or T6
2) Lopi Liberty
3) Blaze king King 40
4) Drolet HT 30000

Yes, we've beat these topics to death, but I feel this home and circumstance are somewhat unique. ALL the wood will be pine (mainly ponderosa) as I'm harvesting beetle kill and dwarf mistletoe infected trees. I've bounced around the idea of cat vs not-cat/reburn and I see the merits and detriments of both. I work longer days (I'm a doc so about 6am-6pm), but if I can get substantial heat for 10 hours I'm more than happy. One last note, I want the stove to be low maintenance and easy to operate, so I've ruled out the Vermont castings options even though I like the look. At altitude, a colleague of mine had VC defiant and even with a professionally installed stove/chimney couldn't get it to run reliably in cat mode (so he ran it with an open damper 90% of the time).
Thank you in advance for any advice. As a current PE insert owner I do appreciate their quality but I'm having a hard time adding the extra 3k+ price tag over something like the Drolet HT 3000. Any and all opinions/ advice appreciated.

Cheers,
Erik

 

[MMH]

Erik, sounds like a beautiful place. However everything has 2 sides, newtons 3rd law if you will. It sounds like you have a lot of heat loss with the windows, in addition to that how is the insulation in general etc? First thing is I’d try to button that up as much as feasible; for example I just added thermal curtains to some of my windows in addition to inspecting and brushing up on some caulking etc.

Next, 6000 sq ft is a lot of space, which brings up the moving of heat in general which I suspect is difficult with that much space (open plan or not), have you tried anything to attempt to circulate the air? Ceiling fans or floor fans to push the cold air back to the stove etc? A diagram or pic could be helpful for this.

Now, for your actual question. I think concerning your 12 ish hr shifts any of these stoves could probably suit that for you. All stoves now are epa certified and have some type of reburn system whether it’s catalytic tubes or hybrid combos etc. Personally, I’d go with free standing stoves (to capture as much heat as I could) and I’d go with the blaze king. I run a BK and love it so I’ll admit perhaps a bias here. With that said, it’s simple (one lever for bypass one air control), reliable, and easily controllable and with the amount of space you have, at face value you want the biggest stove you can find, which by the stoves you listed is the king (rated for up to 3,000 sq ft, high btu, and has the biggest firebox outmatching the others by at least a cubic foot).

 

[EbS-P]

Of that list the T6 is the best. Drolet is a great value.

You have do something about the windows. My parents made foam board panels. Covered in Wallpaper that we could put in when it was really cold. Difference was astounding.

Do you have force air heat? Thinking wood furnace. Running 3 stoves unless one’s is the BK40 on different levels will be taxing.

 

[Newbie78]

his is not a true passive solar house, obviously. The current definition of "passive solar" is a grave misnomer.

 

[begreen]

All of those stoves will work Erik. The advantage of the Drolet or PE in this case will be that they will work with less chimney height compensation due to the altitude.

 

[Ashful]

You have do something about the windows. My parents made foam board panels. Covered in Wallpaper that we could put in when it was really cold. Difference was astounding.

Anything that blocks glass can make a huge difference, even if not sealed around the perimeter. We just have the cellular shades on our windows, which became real popular a few years back (not sure if they're still as "trendy"), and the felt difference in any room when they're up vs. down is noticeable on a cold night.

 

[moresnow]

Anything that blocks glass can make a huge difference, even if not sealed around the perimeter. We just have the cellular shades on our windows, which became real popular a few years back (not sure if they're still as "trendy"), and the felt difference in any room when they're up vs. down is noticeable on a cold night.

Any recollection of the brand/model etc? Or where you procured said shades?

 

[Ashful]

Any recollection of the brand/model etc? Or where you procured said shades?

We just have the Comfortex 3/8" double honeycomb cellular shades, and they make a huge difference. There are insulated options that may be even better, but we were matching to what was already installed in several rooms. The last several were ordered from blindsgalore.com, and they're great to work with, even doing returns/exchanges if there's an issue. We bought a few motorized, which hang above my desk in the office, but most are just manual pull.

Do note that if you want perfect color match, you should buy all of a room at the same time, as their fabric colors and sheen do vary slightly from lot to lot. If buying for a second room, it will be close enough that you likely won't detect any difference.

I haven't looked, but I'd like to think they have smart (eg. Zwave) home compatible stuff by now, so you could schedule them to go down automatically after dark. We're still old-school here, at least with regard to blinds.

 

[begreen]

Erik, what is the primary heating system? Forced air or hot water? This amount of sq ftg warrants looking at a wood furnace or boiler system.

Full-length cellular shades will help a lot, but the heat loss of the house is large. During the coldest weather it needs the continuous high BTUs that a furnace or boiler can put out.

 

[Latviski]

his is not a true passive solar house, obviously. The current definition of "passive solar" is a grave misnomer.

Swing and miss my friend! This house was designed and built by two engineers in '81 and consists of over 40 angled skylight panels facing a 120' long by 2' thick rock wall (heat sink) with internal ducting and fans built in to pull the air from the hot high area down into the first floor. Out of curiosity, what do you believe constitutes a "true" passive solar home? It's also been featured in several magazines with references to the engineering behind the passive solar systems in place so I'm going to go with, yes, it is a passive solar home! Oh, and it's 1/3 underground as well...built into the mountain.
On a sunny day it will easily be 30+ degrees warmer than the outside temp with zero utilities running.
Problem is, it's almost 6000 sq ft and if the sun isn't shining, well, it's cold and the temps can drop very quickly at over 8000 feet at night.
The other issue is, as the home is extremely architectural in it's design, finding an esthetic and efficient spot to mount any stove is a challenge.

 

[Latviski]

Erik, what is the primary heating system? Forced air or hot water? This amount of sq ftg warrants looking at a wood furnace or boiler system.

Full-length cellular shades will help a lot, but the heat loss of the house is large. During the coldest weather it needs the continuous high BTUs that a furnace or boiler can put out.

I wish! Electric baseboard...it's like running 28 hair dryers 24hrs a day to heat the home and costs a FORTUNE!

 

[Latviski]

Anything that blocks glass can make a huge difference, even if not sealed around the perimeter. We just have the cellular shades on our windows, which became real popular a few years back (not sure if they're still as "trendy"), and the felt difference in any room when they're up vs. down is noticeable on a cold night.

I'm definitely looking into these - thank you for the info! I've added thermal/black out drapes to my three sliding doors in the main room downstairs and honestly, it's kept it a couple degrees warmer over the past few weeks than prior. Somewhat anecdotal but I zap all the spots I can with my temp gun and I have a larger warm area on the ground now than before shades.

 

[Latviski]

Erik, sounds like a beautiful place. However everything has 2 sides, newtons 3rd law if you will. It sounds like you have a lot of heat loss with the windows, in addition to that how is the insulation in general etc? First thing is I’d try to button that up as much as feasible; for example I just added thermal curtains to some of my windows in addition to inspecting and brushing up on some caulking etc.

Next, 6000 sq ft is a lot of space, which brings up the moving of heat in general which I suspect is difficult with that much space (open plan or not), have you tried anything to attempt to circulate the air? Ceiling fans or floor fans to push the cold air back to the stove etc? A diagram or pic could be helpful for this.

Now, for your actual question. I think concerning your 12 ish hr shifts any of these stoves could probably suit that for you. All stoves now are epa certified and have some type of reburn system whether it’s catalytic tubes or hybrid combos etc. Personally, I’d go with free standing stoves (to capture as much heat as I could) and I’d go with the blaze king. I run a BK and love it so I’ll admit perhaps a bias here. With that said, it’s simple (one lever for bypass one air control), reliable, and easily controllable and with the amount of space you have, at face value you want the biggest stove you can find, which by the stoves you listed is the king (rated for up to 3,000 sq ft, high btu, and has the biggest firebox outmatching the others by at least a cubic foot).

Thanks for all the great info. Appreciate yours and everyone's responses.
Yes, the house is actually well insulated in many areas, but due to it's architectural design and having floor to ceiling windows on the 2nd floor (along with 10 glass doors) it's got tons of heat loss. I do have a passive solar setup and fans that pull air from top to bottom as well as a ceiling fan so I can definitely move air ALL around the house.
I've considered the wood boiler as well but I'm not sure I want to install something quite that large? Venting that sucker would be interesting too in this home as it's literally made of concrete, glass, and 16" beams.
The BK King 40 is definitely a contender. The main reason I've considered the others is I'd like a quick up to temp when I'm home and ability to at least get one spot into a comfortable temp range on wood alone. I can definitely shut off parts of the home in the winter to minimize heat needed, but the BTU's I need will be whatever the max I can achieve are.

 

[Latviski]

All of those stoves will work Erik. The advantage of the Drolet or PE in this case will be that they will work with less chimney height compensation due to the altitude.

A good friend of mine with an equally stupidly large sq footage (I bought the place for the views and the 25+ acres), had a Vermont Castings with a 16'+ chimney and couldn't stop the thing from smoking (professionally installed) and had to use all sorts of tricks when lighting not to smoke the family out. He ended up running it with damper open more often than not so I'm hesitant on Cat stoves at this elevation and with only a 12-16' chimney needed for my app.

 

[Latviski]

Of that list the T6 is the best. Drolet is a great value.

You have do something about the windows. My parents made foam board panels. Covered in Wallpaper that we could put in when it was really cold. Difference was astounding.

Do you have force air heat? Thinking wood furnace. Running 3 stoves unless one’s is the BK40 on different levels will be taxing.

I've thought of this as well, though it would be 20+ ~6' x 5' windows and I'd lose the killer views I bought the home for.
I've also considered the wood furnace but the install would be insanely challenging considering the way the home is built.

 

[Newbie78]

Swing and miss my friend! This house was designed and built by two engineers in '81 and consists of over 40 angled skylight panels facing a 120' long by 2' thick rock wall (heat sink) with internal ducting and fans built in to pull the air from the hot high area down into the first floor. Out of curiosity, what do you believe constitutes a "true" passive solar home? It's also been featured in several magazines with references to the engineering behind the passive solar systems in place so I'm going to go with, yes, it is a passive solar home! Oh, and it's 1/3 underground as well...built into the mountain.
On a sunny day it will easily be 30+ degrees warmer than the outside temp with zero utilities running.
Problem is, it's almost 6000 sq ft and if the sun isn't shining, well, it's cold and the temps can drop very quickly at over 8000 feet at night.
The other issue is, as the home is extremely architectural in it's design, finding an esthetic and efficient spot to mount any stove is a challenge.

It sounds fancy. It needs shutters. Passive construction 101. They will help with temperature control in the summer too.

 

[EbS-P]

I've thought of this as well, though it would be 20+ ~6' x 5' windows and I'd lose the killer views I bought the home for.
I've also considered the wood furnace but the install would be insanely challenging considering the way the home is built.

Remember the window insulation isn’t all the time and doesn’t have to be all the windows. When it’s dark you can’t see much anyway.

Outdoor boiler???

 

[clancey]

I kind of like the idea of a outdoor boiler and maybe just have a wood stove inside for ambiance and entertainment with that aspect with a fire going...Knowing not much here about the different stoves and their workings..clancey

 

[Ashful]

As one who's been accused of being a BK fanboy, this one may surprise some folks, but I wonder if that's the best choice for a house with this much daytime solar gain.

I have two BK's, and one is in a wing of the house with a lot of solar gain. Not an engineered passive house by any means, it's just a newer 1990's addition with 6" framed walls and blown-in cellulose, with a crap-ton of windows. I find that I need to watch the cloud cover forecast as much as the temperature, in choosing how I load it, as it can be easy to overheat the space on even a cold but sunny day.

I load this stove most evenings, and simply check the next day's forecast. If it's cold and cloudy, I load it full, and set the thermostat for a predictable 24-hour burn. But if the forecast is showing full sun, I might just do a half load using the same thermostat setting, aiming to have the load burned thru in about 12 hours. If this were my primary stove, rather than just a secondary stove heating a smaller area, I'd probably be more scientific or careful about it.

For you, esp. if this will be your only stove, you'll quickly learn how much to compensate the outside temperature for "partly cloudy" vs. "partly sunny", and load accordingly. But if your clime has more sunny than cloudy days, you may find yourself not often taking advantage of the super-long burn times possible with a BK King, and more often short-loading it for quick overnight fires only.

As to heating a 6000 ft2 home with a stove, we can all sit here and debate it, but it's useless talk without knowing the layout and dynamics of your house. Your indication of passive temperature delta (30°F!) makes me think you don't need a whole lot of BTU's, despite it being a larger home, but you could easily run those basic numbers. As to distribution, stoves put out much lower BTU than your central heating, but over a longer time. This aids in keeping things leveled better than you'd expect, if used to basing your expectations on a higher-BTU intermittent heat source. That said, there's no harm in using your stove to provide some base load, while allowing multi-zone central heating to modulate final comfort atop that, which is essentially what I'm doing in a home of similar size to yours (6700 sq.ft.).

 

[Newbie78]

He has no control over his sunshine. That is the first thing that needs to be addressed. The engineers who designed this so-called passive house didn't understand the most basic concepts of passivity in construction or, if they did understand it wasn't a priority. It is a form over function structure that is no doubt beautiful, but sadly missed the mark entirely with respect to efficiency. Frank Lloyd Wright would not approve.

the fans moving air through ductwork in the stone wall is a dead give-away. There should be no need for fans or ducts in that wall whatsoever.

that wall could easily warm the entire house with properly designed convection and an interior designed to accentuate that.

warm air rises, cool air falls.

 

[Ashful]

He has no control over his sunshine. That is the first thing that needs to be addressed. The engineers who designed this so-called passive house didn't understand the most basic concepts of passivity in construction or, if they did understand it wasn't a priority. It is a form over function structure that is no doubt beautiful, but sadly missed the mark entirely with respect to efficiency. Frank Lloyd Wright would not approve.

the fans moving air through ductwork in the stone wall is a dead give-away. There should be no need for fans or ducts in that wall whatsoever.

that wall could easily warm the entire house with properly designed convection and an interior designed to accentuate that.

warm air rises, cool air falls.

Meh... give me a pretty half-passive house of a true passive house, any day.

I also like Corvette C3's and Cobra 427's. Neither has ever been called the most efficient or perfect car in the world, but oh... those lines!

 

[begreen]

I wish! Electric baseboard...it's like running 28 hair dryers 24hrs a day to heat the home and costs a FORTUNE!

Ah, sounds like they took the easy way out for that part.
Are any of the magazine articles about the house online? It would be fun to read them.

I've thought of this as well, though it would be 20+ ~6' x 5' windows and I'd lose the killer views I bought the home for.

They can be open during the day and during milder nights.

PS: We have two 5' x 10' facing north in an old farmhouse. Not the greatest idea but our climate is milder.

 

[Newbie78]

Meh... give me a pretty half-passive house of a true passive house, any day.

I also like Corvette C3's and Cobra 427's. Neither has ever been called the most efficient or perfect car in the world, but oh... those lines!

Don't get me wrong. The house sounds stunning! However it is not passive and does not take advantage of sunshine properly, obviously.

I don't care, except that my son is in the early stages of planning a modern "passive" house and everything (or much of) what he is learning so far is not correct wrt true passive construction which relies only on very simple concepts rather than extensive electronics and technologies that are not in keeping with passive design which only relies on natural movement of air and water, correct orientation, shading, and in almost all cases SHUTTERS! As you and others have touched on here.

trying to heat the house in question efficiently without a way to harness the sun in that wall overnight and in shady times is fruitless.

 

[Ashful]

I don't care, except that my son is in the early stages of planning a modern "passive" house and everything (or much of) what he is learning so far is not correct wrt true passive construction which relies only on very simple concepts rather than extensive electronics and technologies that are not in keeping with passive design ...

I can understand that. But I'd also assume that philosophy toward, the implementation of, "passive house" design has probably changed quite in a bit in the 42 years since the OP's house was built.

 

[farmwithjunk]

Any particular reason the Regency F5200 isn't on the list? Its close to the BK40 but does not have the bimetallic thermostat control. BK didn't make my short list due to availability being many months out, same with others.

I get 12 hours easily on a full load, twice that with temps dropping to 300~ if doing front to back burns and not reloading over too many coals.