Leaning towards a Harman. Best way to go?

[Scrib]

Hello all. It's been a brutal winter here and the gas bills are just out of control. That and my wife and I decided not to put a fireplace in the hosue when we built as we couldn't make up our mind on how/what we wanted. My Dad introduced me to pellet stoves and I've done quite a bit of research.

Our home is 2500 sq ft. and has a very open concept. We were thinking of putting the stove in our great room, which has an 18 foot ceiling and that second floor has an overlook down. Even when the we're only heating the first floor (zoned heating installed in our home), the heat gets up to the second floor. So I'm quite confident that the stove placement would be ideal for getting heat to both floors. And the corner where the stove would sit is on an exterior wall, so venting would be cake.

The two local stove shops carry Harman and Avalon/Lopi and everything I've read seems to lead me to think Harman is a better choice. Right now, the XXV and P68 are the two in consideration. Any thoughts?

Only concerns are:

- Blower noise. The stove will sit in the room where we watch TV.

- Too much heat. Obviously the point is to create heat, but it could get quite hot since we spend a lot of time in the same room where the stove will be.

- My son. He's only two and obviously very inquisitive. I am thinking a good metal gate to corner the stove off will work.


Any thoughts on either Harman model? The goal is to reduce natural gas dependancy during the winter months. Budget --- There really isn't one. I want to make sure it's done right.

Thanks all.

 

[tumbles]

I to was leaning towards the Harman. I couldn't get one in a reasonable time frame so I went with the Lopi Leyden. I have absolutely no regrets at all. I don't sell stoves so my opinion is unbiased. I find the Lopi to be very easy to operate and I burn 24/7. It also comes with a 6 -7 year warranty. There is a learning curve to all stoves no matter what you buy. I personally see a lot of posts on problems people are having with harman. Granted they sell a lot of stoves, but I think (my opinion) there are way too many topics of problems people are having with their stoves. I really was surprised to see so many negative postings given they had such a great reputation. I'm not knocking Harman stoves as I don't own one, but I do own a Lopi and have been very happy so far. No problems with clinkers, stove not staying running, jams etc. Just my opinion. Hope it helps.

 

[newf lover]

I am new to the pellet stove world as well, so I can't really compare the 2 stoves you mentioned. I own a P68, and even though I do love it, I think the blower noise is pretty loud. Unless it's just my stove, we do have trouble hearing the TV over the blower noise and have to turn it up quite a bit.

 

[pkitfox]

We have had a Harman Accentra for just a few weeks. We are very happy with the stove. We run the blower full out, and it is kind of loud. It is adjustable to lower speeds that will quiet it down. On thing to consider is that Harman pellet stoves are able to burn reliably at very low heat output. Maybe others can tell you more, but I was told by a person that owns a Harman XXV and a Winslow that the Harman on low used half the pellets as the Winslow. He liked both stoves, but wanted me to know, that if low burn was important, the Harman did it very well. From my experience so far, I have to agree. If I turn it all the way down, I am not worried about it going out during the night. I believe all the Harman Pellet stoves are similar on the feed/burn/control system.

I forgot to mention. If it is cold where you live, maybe the P68 or P61 would be the best way to go. They can produce killer heat if needed, and can still run with low heat output.

 

[TomPajak]

I am new to the pellet stove world as well, so I can't really compare the 2 stoves you mentioned. I own a P68, and even though I do love it, I think the blower noise is pretty loud. Unless it's just my stove, we do have trouble hearing the TV over the blower noise and have to turn it up quite a bit.

Same here...why can't they just put a bigger fan on it that can turn slower..it has the room...any electricians out there to tell me if thats possible?

 

[Yardbird]

If you put any pellet stove in the same room as your television, you are going to have to turn the volume up. I can tell you that with our pellet stove, we have about the same gas/electric bills in the winter as we do in the summer. Our natural gas furnace is set to 60 degrees, so if the pellet stove goes off for any reason, then the furnace will prevent any freezing from happening. On the coldest of days, it only kicks in a few times.

A metal grate would be ideal to keep you son away from the stove. The sides aren't that bad, but the glass can get pretty hot. I don't have experience with either of the stove you mentioned. I really like our Harman Advance. The biggest thing to check on would be how the dealer can service your stove if and when it needs service. Try to find out if they good customer service, and plenty of parts on hand. You never know when you will need parts, so it's important to have them available, just in case.

 

[mgambuzza]

I've had Thelins, Quadrafires, and Harmans. Thelins(Gnome and Parlor) and Quadrafire(Castile) are great to look at - but they do build clinkers in their burnpots which require cleanouts (Thelins do not have an ash drawer so also have to vacuum out every 3-6 days). They also are limited to 20-40k BTU which is low for the application you are seeking. I have had the Harman P61A for a couple of years, and as the posters have stated - when the temperature drops and you need the heat - it is there! Yes the blower is a bit noisy on the highest settings, but also so is the NG furnace in my house. All depends on acoustics of the room, proximity of stove to TV, etc, as once room reaches temp, fan does wind down until need is required to bring room temp back up.

 

[Scrib]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Appreciate it. Keep em' coming

Good to know about the blower noises on the Harman. Will certainly keep that in mind.

I spent quite a bit of time with the local Harman dealer and asked him everything about their service, parts, etc. I got a good feeling that they are on top of it. Been in business for over 30 years, if that means anything.

 

[kinsmanstoves]

Harman has a killer sale right now. Go to their website and you can see up to $600 off.

In Indiana I would look at the PC45. This give the option of corn and grain. The Eastcoasters do not have the ability of corn that we do in the rustbelt. Corn is cheaper than pellets right now.

Stick with your local dealer. They will help you the most.

Eric

 

[TomPajak]

question:Why is it the P45 puts out 45k btu but says it heats only 1400sq.ft whereas the Avalon Arbor puts out 45kbtu and can heat 2250sq,ft....why the differences?

 

[kinsmanstoves]

question:Why is it the P45 puts out 45k btu but says it heats only 1400sq.ft whereas the Avalon Arbor puts out 45kbtu and can heat 2250sq,ft....why the differences?

That is with corn, 50,000 btu with pellets.

There is not a set formula for stove companies to advertise sqft. Each house is different depending on ceiling height, windows, doors, insulation, outside temp. I would rather advertise lower that over step the stoves ability.

Eric

 

[MCPO]

I am new to the pellet stove world as well, so I can't really compare the 2 stoves you mentioned. I own a P68, and even though I do love it, I think the blower noise is pretty loud. Unless it's just my stove, we do have trouble hearing the TV over the blower noise and have to turn it up quite a bit.

Same here...why can't they just put a bigger fan on it that can turn slower..it has the room...any electricians out there to tell me if thats possible?

It would take an engineer and not an electrician to solve the issue of noise produced from the distribution fan.
It`s a compromise of design. To significantly reduce the fan noise and or heat distribution the proven heating design of a Harman would almost surely have to be compromised.

 

[Wet1]

It's really tough to beat Harman when it comes to pellet stoves. Regarding the reliability of the Harmans, they are just as reliable as any other stove, and more reliable than some since they only have a single auger (fewer moving parts). You might notice some issues with Harman stoves being brought up on the forum, but I think this is mainly because they out sell other brands.

I think you'll find fan noise on most pellet stoves is quite noticeable when the fan speed is set high enough to really move some air. The problem is not so much the size of the fan, but the limited port size of the heat exchangers. Putting a larger fan in the stove would do little since you would still have the high port velocity (which creates much of the noise). With an area of 2500 sq ft, you'll have to have the stove set fairly high and you'll need to move some air to distribute all that heat from this space heater, and that's going to create some noise.

Even more elementary, have you compared the price of NG to pellets in your area? I would think NG in the mid-west would be almost as cheap as pellets (although I have no idea what you pay for your NG). When you factor in the cost of the stove, flue, hearth pad, install, etc, you're probably talking a very long payback. And this doesn't even factor in your daily labor of feeding and cleaning the stove... Crunch the numbers closely before you buy, you might not be saving as much as you think you might.

How many CCF/therms of NG do you burn a year and what do you pay per CCF/Therm? Is any of this NG used for anything else (DHW, dryer, cooking, etc)?

 

[Scrib]

We use NG for our dryer, stove and hot water heater in addition to the furnace.

Our NG use is way out of control, as evidenced by our last bill. The main problem is my wife who is always cold, so we were keeping the themostat at 72 during the times we were at home, including the night. This last month was very cold in the area (10th coldest Jan. on record at O'Hare). Also, doesn't help that we only have an 80% efficient furnace. I've already had to turn things down from 72, to try and avoid any remaining season shocks.

We went through (***drum roll***) 309 therms that last billing cycle, which was 35 days (Granted I was home during the days around the holidays on vacation). When you include the stupid taxes and "delivery" fees, we paid a whooping $443.48 for NG this past bill. Per therm it was $0.8814. Other months, we've had 260+ therm usage for less usage days when we're not home during the day. And we both work, so between 7am and 4pm, the thermostats are down to 62

In non-furnace months, our therm usage goes down to 20-40 therms. From Feb. 08 to this last bill, we burned 1,518 therms.

I'm not worried too much about long term payback as the comfort factor is worth the price alone. And I don't expect to get rid of NG furnace dependency all together. But that last bill, we paid over $12 a day to heat our home.

That alone tells me that there are savings opportunities. But more than that, the comfort that comes with it is a bigger priority for us.

Eric

Even more elementary, have you compared the price of NG to pellets in your area? I would think NG in the mid-west would be almost as cheap as pellets (although I have no idea what you pay for your NG). When you factor in the cost of the stove, flue, hearth pad, install, etc, you're probably talking a very long payback. And this doesn't even factor in your daily labor of feeding and cleaning the stove... Crunch the numbers closely before you buy, you might not be saving as much as you think you might.

How many CCF/therms of NG do you burn a year and what do you pay per CCF/Therm? Is any of this NG used for anything else (DHW, dryer, cooking, etc)?

 

[Wet1]

We use NG for our dryer, stove and hot water heater in addition to the furnace.

Our NG use is way out of control, as evidenced by our last bill. The main problem is my wife who is always cold, so we were keeping the themostat at 72 during the times we were at home, including the night. This last month was very cold in the area (10th coldest Jan. on record at O'Hare). Also, doesn't help that we only have an 80% efficient furnace. I've already had to turn things down from 72, to try and avoid any remaining season shocks.

We went through (***drum roll***) 309 therms that last billing cycle, which was 35 days (Granted I was home during the days around the holidays on vacation). When you include the stupid taxes and "delivery" fees, we paid a whooping $443.48 for NG this past bill. Per therm it was $0.8814. Other months, we've had 260+ therm usage for less usage days when we're not home during the day. And we both work, so between 7am and 4pm, the thermostats are down to 62

In non-furnace months, our therm usage goes down to 20-40 therms. From Feb. 08 to this last bill, we burned 1,518 therms.

I'm not worried too much about long term payback as the comfort factor is worth the price alone. And I don't expect to get rid of NG furnace dependency all together. But that last bill, we paid over $12 a day to heat our home.

That alone tells me that there are savings opportunities. But more than that, the comfort that comes with it is a bigger priority for us.

Eric

Eric,
It sounds like your NG rate ($) is relatively low compared to the cost of pellets. Subtracting out your summer usage, it looks like you burn about 1350 therms in the winter for heating. It would require approximately 8 tons of wood pellets to replace this amount of NG. Do the math and I think it will cost you just about as much, if not MORE, to heat with pellets (although I don't know what pellets cost in your area)... never mind the initial cost of adding the stove or having to deal with storing/moving 8 tons of pellets, constantly loading and cleaning the stove, etc.

Any real saving you might get from a stove would likely be from using a space heater (only heating an area that needs to be heated and letting unused areas remain cooler). You can do the same thing by installing a cheaper NG space heater(s) or zoning your central heating system, which again would be a lot cheaper than buying a new P68... and this would require far less effort and up-keep for you. I'd strongly reconsider buying the pellet stove to save money...

Another thing you should consider doing is installing a programmable thermostat. This would allow you turn down the temps somewhat while you're away or sleeping and raise them back up when you're up and around the house.

Investing in more/better insulation and windows might be a much better long term investment. You might want to get your wife a sweater as well.

 

[Scrib]

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely look into everything. As mentioned, I doubt we'd get off NG completely, so that 8 ton figure is probably high. However, point well taken.

Sadly, we do have little heaters in the rooms that are occupied and are using them quite a bit now after the most recent bill. And programmable thermostats are on both floors.

I also just added much more insulation into the attic, however we didn't see much help in the recent bill. Probably because it was so darn cold. And windows... That would cost a small fortune. Our house has 26 windows. One estimate I got was well over $20K. :O

Eric,
It sounds like your NG rate ($) is relatively low compared to the cost of pellets. Subtracting out your summer usage, it looks like you burn about 1350 therms in the winter for heating. It would require approximately 8 tons of pellets to replace this amount of NG. Do the math and I think it will cost you just as much if not MORE to heat with pellets (although I don't know what pellets cost in your area)... never mind the initial cost of adding the stove or having to deal with storing/moving 8 tons of pellets, constantly loading and cleaning the stove, etc.

Any real saving you might get from a stove would likely be from using a space heater (only heating an area that needs to be heated and letting unused areas remain cooler). You can do the same thing by installing a cheaper NG space heater(s) or zoning your central heating system, which again would be a lot cheaper than buying a new P68... and this would require far less effort and up-keep for you. I'd strongly reconsider buying the pellet stove to save money...

Another thing you should consider doing is installing a programmable thermostat. This would allow you turn down the temps somewhat while you're away or sleeping and raise them back up when you're up and around the house.

Investing in more/better insulation and windows might be a much better long term investment.

 

[bungalobob]

Have the P68 and could not be happier. We have two floors just under 2000 sq ft. I never expected the stove to heat both levels, but it has. Easily 72/74 downstairs and 68/70 upstairs, and can get much hotter if we wanted. Low fire burn is no problem, does get hot when the outside temps are in the fifties though. With the open design you have, the heat should travel well upstairs, but you have to leave bedrooms open if you want the heat there. The blower is loud, we have gotten used to it over the past few months, like everyone else with a pellet stove, it is an adjustment to your lifestyle, and not just with the sound. Maintaining a pellet inventory, daily scrapings, weekly cleanings, and the loading of bags into the hopper, etc... Your youngster will learn fairly quick about the dangers of the stove, but if a guard would make you feel more comfortable, go for it. Just have to be aware of when the toys get on the other side, he will most likely want to get them back quick, so you better be there or he will try and scale the gate. Big bonus with the P68 is ash pan size, holds a serious amount of ash. Empty after a ton or so is right, as they quote. See alot of units with no ash pan, that would drive me insane. As for the amount of problems between this and other stoves, I have no idea, this is the only one I own, and have had it only about two months. But like other post says, they are popular and there are a lot of them out there, so there is a lot of posts on Harmans. Check out this thread with poll on who owns what.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/25201/
Any more questions, please ask away. Good luck with your decision.

 

[cac4]

My stove isn't big enough for your application, but I gotta say, I was very pleasantly surprised by the amount of noise it makes. (or should say, "doesn't make".). As subjective an issue as this is, let me qualify it by saying that I have very sensitive ears, and am quite averse to loud noise. fussy, fussy, fussy...but if I don't think its loud...its not loud. LOL!.
My house has an open floor plan, and half of the first floor is linoleum...not much for curtains...so its very live. If someone else is in the house and talking on the phone, I have to turn up the TV. We don't run the dishwasher until we're going to bed. too loud. I have one of those Kenmore humidifiers...you know the ones that are a big box, with the fake-wood finish...hold 5 gallons of water? very common...and very LOUD. WAY louder than the pellet stove ever dreamed of being. I have to keep its fan settings down around 25%, and its in another room!! I thought maybe this year, I'd be able to crank it a little higher, as the pellet stove does make "some" noise, and perhaps it would drown out the humidifier...nope.
You'll see alot of posts on the noise subject, saying that you'll have to turn up the tv a notch...well, I found that when I first installed the stove, I had to turn the tv DOWN a notch, so I could hear what the pellet stove was doing.
The only time I need to turn up the tv is if I have the room fan on full-blast...and I've found that having it up all the way doesn't really make much difference in the heat output.
I was also concerned about it being "too hot" to sit near the stove, or even be in the same room with it. (like wood stoves can be). its not. You can sit right next to it, and watch tv...neither too loud, nor too hot.

on the BTU/fuel cost issue: A straight btu-to-btu comparison isn't an accurate assesment of the situation, because your NG system is heating your house differently than a stove will. With a stove, you'll be keeping less of your house at that comfy, 72 degrees, but being where you spend 90% of your time, that will be acceptable. A btu comparison on my house says that I should use 4.5 tons of pellets, but I'm on target to only use 3. Its not magic; I'm not heating as much of my house as I used to. Much of this effect is in the unfinished basement, which is now much colder than I had expected it would be...which means, my system was wasting a lot of energy heating it. (its not "supposed" to heat it; it just does, by the simple fact that the air ducts and furnace radiate heat into the basement, because thats where they are.)

 

[Steveo]

I love my P68 and the heat output is incredible. This thing puts out way more heat then we will ever need but we just keep it turned down and it is perfect. I always buy bigger rather than smaller so I bought what I felt was the biggest and the best. I am one of those people who is always cold and I am never cold now that I have this pellet stove. If it is ten below zero outside, the stove has no problem keeping the house hot.

 

[MassPellet]

Have the Harman XXV and we love it. Noise is not too bad unless you use it on high - we hardly ever do. Heat is great and adjustable. We have a 2100 sq ft colonial and it heats it well.

We have 3 small children ages 5, 3 and 1. Bought gate set specifically designed for pellet and wood stoves and is very safe.

Good Luck

 

[Scrib]

Do you have a link to the gate you purchased?

Thanks!

Have the Harman XXV and we love it. Noise is not too bad unless you use it on high - we hardly ever do. Heat is great and adjustable. We have a 2100 sq ft colonial and it heats it well.

We have 3 small children ages 5, 3 and 1. Bought gate set specifically designed for pellet and wood stoves and is very safe.

Good Luck

 

[exoilburner]

I to was leaning towards the Harman. I couldn't get one in a reasonable time frame so I went with the Lopi Leyden. I have absolutely no regrets at all. I don't sell stoves so my opinion is unbiased. I find the Lopi to be very easy to operate and I burn 24/7. It also comes with a 6 -7 year warranty. There is a learning curve to all stoves no matter what you buy. I personally see a lot of posts on problems people are having with harman. Granted they sell a lot of stoves, but I think (my opinion) there are way too many topics of problems people are having with their stoves. I really was surprised to see so many negative postings given they had such a great reputation. I'm not knocking Harman stoves as I don't own one, but I do own a Lopi and have been very happy so far. No problems with clinkers, stove not staying running, jams etc. Just my opinion. Hope it helps.

You are correct. They sell a lot of stoves. When you compare the number of Harmons to other brands it seems reasonable Harmons would have more posts on the forum. See the results of a Poll taken on this forum below asking which brand stove you own. :-/

Poll thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/25201/
Which brand stove do you own?
Englander 65
Lopi 22
Breckwell 40
St Croix 20
Enviro 36
Harman 121
Quadrafire 83
Thelin 6
Dell Point 1
Osborne 4
Whitfield 21
Other - please explain 68
Total Votes: 487

 

[Tom D]

i heat aprox. 1200 square feet and keep it at 74 deg. down stairs,just had more insullation put
in attic staying around 68.5 deg. upstairs. heating with xxv and this is my second year with
stove, warmer in house burned 2 tons so far. pound for pound harman stoves are hard to beat.
set temp. back to 68 deg. at night.using wireless remote from skytech. i havent put stove to half its
output.

 

[scarter2]

We got a Lopi Leyden in December and have been very happy with it so far. A little more work than I was expecting, but well worth the comfort we get out of having the LR nice and toasty... even if the payback is going to take a little longer than expected now that oil is back down to $2! The noise is the one drawback I hadn't really expected (we didn't do much homework before jumping on the bandwagon). You get used to it pretty quickly. For me it is more the exhaust fan than the blower that seems to be noisier. Anyway, nice heat and pretty convenient compared to a wood stove, so we are happy.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[TomPajak]

i heat aprox. 1200 square feet and keep it at 74 deg. down stairs,just had more insullation put
in attic staying around 68.5 deg. upstairs. heating with xxv and this is my second year with
stove, warmer in house burned 2 tons so far. pound for pound harman stoves are hard to beat.
set temp. back to 68 deg. at night.using wireless remote from skytech. i havent put stove to half its
output.

remote to fit a Harman????tell me more plz