LED lights are going to be outdated - already?

[DougA]

Interesting article here about how graphene lights are going to replace LEDs with lower power consumption and lower cost to buy. Supposed to go on sale next year.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32100071

 

[Jeepman401]

Interesting article here about how graphene lights are going to replace LEDs with lower power consumption and lower cost to buy. Supposed to go on sale next year.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32100071

I tried some early LEDs (Walmart branded Lights Across America I think) and was disappointed in the quality. Most went dead the first year, I sure the newer name brand ones are much better. But looking at the current draw vs CFLs with equal lumes they just don't make since to me. Maybe these may be better dollar wise...

 

[woodgeek]

The article says adding graphene will lead to a 10% improvement to existing LED designs, not clear what that means. There is already a huge spread in lumens/W among LED bulbs (from <70 to >110).

I think the 'filament' models will take over above 100 lum/W, frosted or clear, and look just like an old Edison bulb. The helium filled bulb cooling method works great when the amount of heat to be rejected drops below a threshold (as lum/W increases). The packaging has to be cheaper too....very little metal.

The latest 115 lum/W ones I got recently are blowing the doors off my L-prize and Cree bulbs, and clearly running a lot cooler. Now close to 2x as eff as CFL. And the physical limits suggest that we can reasonably get to 150-250 lum/W. That is like a 60W replacement using 3-4W.

In ten years we could have bulbs that look just like Edison bulbs, all glass, clear or frosted, but they will come in 2, 3 and 5W sizes, to replace the old 40, 60 and 100W sizes.

 

[Ashful]

I've recently purchased a couple of LED bulbs, but find the availability of bulbs to match the lumens of 25w and even 35w incandescents is really not there, at least on my local store shelves. Not everyone wants 75w or 150w equivalents!

I'd be very happy if LED or graphics mfg's would offer more low-wattage and decorative bulb replacement. We have more than 200 bulbs in our house, all pretty much below 50w.

 

[woodgeek]

have you tried googling 'LED filament bulbs' yet? Right now the US market is filled with lower-wattage Chinese versions in 'decorative' formats, and the high W replacements are hard to find. I'm not endorsing their longevity, but it might be fun to try out a few.

I suspect the big boys (cree, phillips, seimens) will be all over this format in a few years.

 

[Jeepman401]

The article says 10% better than current LEDs. There is already a huge spread in lumens/W among LED bulbs (from <70 to >110).

I think the 'filament' models will take over above 100 lum/W, frosted or clear, and look just like an old Edison bulb. The helium filled bulb cooling method works great when the amount of heat to be rejected drops below a threshold (as lum/W increases). The packaging has to be cheaper too....very little metal.

The latest 115/ lum/W ones I got recently are blowing the doors off my L-prize and Cree bulbs, and clearly running a lot cooler. Now close to 2x as eff as CFL. And the physical limits suggest that we can reasonably get to 150-250 lum/W. That is like a 60W replacement using 3-4W.

In ten years we could have bulbs that look just like Edison bulbs, all glass, clear or frosted, but they will come in 2, 3 and 5W sizes, to replace the old 40, 60 and 100W sizes.

Current draw of new style LEDs on their packaging is about what my CFLs use on my Kill-A-Watt meter. I am using "daylight" color not old style yellow light. What bulb are you using and what does it cost? Current draw?

 

[woodgeek]

Current draw of new style LEDs on their packaging is about what my CFLs use on my Kill-A-Watt meter. I am using "daylight" color not old style yellow light. What bulb are you using and what does it cost? Current draw?

this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/if-you-miss-those-incandescent-filaments.142331/

I got a 7W, non-dimmable, warm-white 60W replacement, clear. Nominally 800 lumens at 7W. Haven't verified either number, but brightness seems right to my eyes, and its not getting very warm at all, compared to my Crees.

Of course, it cost me $20, unlike the $6 crees. Everyone needs a hobby.

 

[jebatty]

I think I'm going to wait to replace incandescent bulbs until a replacement comes along at very low cost that converts the ambient energy fields into light and uses no electric power at all. BTW, I'm typing this on my friend's computer because I'm still waiting for faster, cheaper, smarter, better looking, completely intuitive device comes along -- oops, might already have that in my BFF (not cheaper though).

 

[DougA]

I'm anxious to get rid of all my CFLs. We've replaced dozens of incandescents with CFLs and many are not lasting any longer than the old incandescents yet cost way more. I bought a few that take half a minute to get bright enough and switched them around into fixtures that we leave on most of the time to eliminate the problem.

I buy LEDs in the US when visiting at $5. ea on sale. Here in Ontario, they are about $12. on sale, then you get a $5. gov't rebate. I HATE rebates like that because stores bump the prices up to make more $$. Just wrong

I found the last 6 LEDs I bought have had a good color temperature and look similar to the old bulbs, which I prefer.

 

[Jeepman401]

My CFLs last many years, some were over 8 years old when I switched them with the new daylight color. Had a friend 3 houses down and he said they burned out fast, but they had kids also. All the good quality LEDs I see at Menards etc are $20-$40 each. Just not worth the savings at that price. Now I may switch, if these new ones are around 4 watts, I use CFLs now that pull around 14 watts each vs 65 watt reg bulbs.

 

[BrotherBart]

The article says they are looking at the material for false teeth too. I will hold out for incorporation of lighting into the dentures.

 

[jebatty]

Our house was all CFL's for a long time. I never had the experience that I read so often of others that many CFL's would last only a short time. And I always bought the cheapest CFL's. Maybe 1 in 20 would crap out, and then rather quickly, the rest would last "forever." We still have 13W pin-tube CFL's in our recessed kitchen fixtures, and all but one are original and these were installed in 1996 and still burning brightly.

Just pulled one pin-tube and it says it uses 220ma, that's 26W and not 13W on a 120V house circuit. Others I have tested on the Kill-o-watt always showed more watts than the 13W the CFL was supposed to use. What gives?

Now the kitchen CFL's are the only CFL's we still use, all other bulbs have been switched to 40 or 60W equivalent LED, most indoor to 3200-3400K color, some indoor 4000 or 5000K color, and all outdoor or garage 5000K color. Most dim just fine. None have failed yet and the longest being used now for about 1-1/2 years. And now when I see the very "red" incandescent or CFL that others use, I wonder why the strong red hue is liked so much when sunlight is even brighter than 5000K. Probably just because that was "normal" lighting since the late 1800's and people are used to an unnatural color.

The most expensive LED's were $9 each, the least expensive before any rebates were $5 each. Again, I buy the cheapest. And I suppose when something better comes along, cuts power usage by about another 50% or so, I will switch lighting once again.

 

[Ashful]

And now when I see the very "red" incandescent or CFL that others use, I wonder why the strong red hue is liked so much when sunlight is even brighter than 5000K. Probably just because that was "normal" lighting since the late 1800's and people are used to an unnatural color.

Try a few thousand years... fire, candles, and oil lamps, all similarly red color temps.

Old houses look odd when lit by CFL or LED. New houses are generally very ugly, so by association... [emoji12]. (... a duck!)

 

[jebatty]

.... ducked in the nick of time! Thanks for the warning. Does a 1956 house with natural 3/4" thick, 8-10" wide pine plank walls and 18" wide solid pine flooring qualify as old, new or indifferent?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

New! Now go to your corner!



Like it has been with wood stoves, going from 40 grams of particulates per hour to 3 is going to be easier than getting that down to 1. I'm sure lighting will be the same.

I switched half my house from cfl to led. I only have 2 often used fixtures that haven't been swapped. If the new stuff proves worthy I'd probably move the CFLs all the way out and transfer the LEDs to their spots. Remember though, LEDs are now going to become cheaper as they are old technology. Spending $200 to save 14 watts per hour across a house might not be a great deal.

 

[DougA]

We can get LEDs in a wide variety of deg. K. I've got what is called warm white and I like them much better than the daylight ones.

IMHO, daylight is great in an office or during the day but I prefer the warm white at home in the evening. Much softer on the eyes and the mind and my mind needs as soft as it can get.

 

[RSNovi]

I have been buying the Sylvania recessed light LED retrofits and I really like them. They replace the bulb and trim piece.

 

[begreen]

I am patiently using up our collection of free CFL bulbs from the power company. In key areas I am also testing LEDs vs CFLs to see if they stand up to their longevity claims. All are warm white. Not sure which will last longer me or the bulbs.

 

[ihookem]

I guess it is good to use even less energy and if you can find a way to do it for the same price, go for it. I really don't see the big deal going from a 800 lumen bulb from 7 watts to 4 watts. I imagine it takes 3-4 watts just ot get the electricity to the bulb... More efficient homes is where we should be focused on. We could save 10% of our heating/ cooling needs just by putting enough insulation in our attic..... Heck even new houses only require r 50 up here,, why not r60 while you are up there and its just old newpaper besides.

 

[begreen]

Saving 3-4 watts doesn't seem like a lot until you look at the scale of consumption and the number of bulbs out there. If they can be produced even cheaper than other options that is also a big plus.

According to fastcompany.com: "Last year, U.S. consumers spent about $1 billion to buy about 2 billion lightbulbs--5.5 million every day."
According to wsj.com: "The U.S., which has four billion electric lights using [incandescent] bulbs, represents about a third of the world market."
So, about 12 billion bulbs, worldwide.

12 billion times 3 watts is 36 gigawatts. A lot of power.

 

[DougA]

I remember a few years ago that Ontario said they could shut down one power generation plant if everyone who owned an old beer fridge in the basement replaced it with a new model.

 

[woodgeek]

I guess it is good to use even less energy and if you can find a way to do it for the same price, go for it. I really don't see the big deal going from a 800 lumen bulb from 7 watts to 4 watts. I imagine it takes 3-4 watts just ot get the electricity to the bulb... More efficient homes is where we should be focused on. We could save 10% of our heating/ cooling needs just by putting enough insulation in our attic..... Heck even new houses only require r 50 up here,, why not r60 while you are up there and its just old newpaper besides.

Gotta agree. Going from 60W to 13W (CFL) is a lot more important than going to 9W (Cree LED 2014) or 7W (AXP LED 2015) or 4W in 2020. But in the long run, the CFLs will burn out, and we'll all have nice bulbs that are more eff than any we have now.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I agree. Just looking at my house, the 2 places I could save the most energy would be in the basement. Either preheating my hot water with something like solar, which currently uses 20 therms of NG a month. And insulating the block walls of my basement. I'm not certain how much that would save, but I know this is my largest source of heat loss in the winter.


The problem with upgrading for higher efficiency is you get the low hanging fruit first. Then you start chasing things with a longer breakeven and things that don't necessarily improve your standard of living. How quick would you jump on an upgrade that saves $10 a month, but doesn't break even for 5, 10, 15+ years? For me, 5 years I'll listen to the idea and consider it. I might even jump if I see volatility coming in the energy source. 10 years I'll listen, but wait to see if something better is in the pipeline. I'm not interested in 15 year paybacks for $10 a month, especially if the standard of living of my family isn't increased by it.

 

[jebatty]

How quick would you jump on an upgrade that saves $10 a month, but doesn't break even for 5, 10, 15+ years? For me, 5 years I'll listen to the idea and consider it. I might even jump if I see volatility coming in the energy source. 10 years I'll listen, but wait to see if something better is in the pipeline. I'm not interested in 15 year paybacks for $10 a month, especially if the standard of living of my family isn't increased by it.

This is quite rational on an individual decision making basis. But what if everyone in the world followed this practice: no mercury reductions, no reduction in sulfuric and nitric acid emissions, no reduction in particulate emissions, no decrease in CO2, etc. Coal would forever reign as king and health, quality of life, and the environment would degrade until we all and other living things, cockroaches excepted, live in squalor, disease, and worse.

The need is for people to act in community for the betterment of all, and that means paying the costs for benefits not built into the economic payback formula. Economic payback alone is and always will be short-sighted until all non-economic, social, and environmental costs also are fully accounted for.

 

[Ashful]

This is quite rational on an individual decision making basis. But what if everyone in the world followed this practice: no mercury reductions, no reduction in sulfuric and nitric acid emissions, no reduction in particulate emissions, no decrease in CO2, etc. Coal would forever reign as king and health, quality of life, and the environment would degrade until we all and other living things, cockroaches excepted, live in squalor, disease, and worse.

Good thing we have you to save us from ourselves.

China's carbon footprint is increasing 10x faster than we can ever hope to reduce ours. Exercise in futility?