Liner Install Price of $11k?

[bholler]

Are you referring to an IRC code? Stove manufacturer's requirement?

Irc code

 

[ChimneyS]

Regarding the chimney clearance to combustibles 1-2" requirement?

 

[bholler]

Regarding the chimney clearance to combustibles 1-2" requirement?

Yes. No where in the code does it mention anything about the clay liners changing clearance requirements. And the only way a listed liner system can give you a zero zero rating is with insulation

 

[ChimneyS]

I wonder how the interior wood beams on the brick wall adjacent this chimney would be interpreted by an inspector. Probably as touching, openly. I wonder what other combustibles are touching this adobe chimney?

In a hypothetical place where building codes were not a thing, the practical insulating value of a 20 yo terra cotta chimney flue around a new stainless flue liner would be significant, and the temperature of exhaust from a modern stove is also relatively low. Obviously the option to use the terra cotta flue without an installation of a stainless flue liner means the terra cotta flue is going to actually be much hotter than if a stainless liner, not further insulated, is fully sleeved. I'm saying that for the practical reality, not talking about how code effects anything, as a hypothetical. I've had people say to me that the terra cotta flue is considered insulation for the new flue liner accordingly, but I have no idea if that had any basis in actual compliance at the time. My understanding of the 'zero clearance' establishment from particular insulation material, is that it's recently introduced , for what that's worth practically (only).

 

[bholler]

I wonder how the interior wood beams on the brick wall adjacent this chimney would be interpreted by an inspector. Probably as touching, openly. I wonder what other combustibles are touching this adobe chimney?

It would not comply with the clearance to combustibles so it wouldn't meet code.

In a hypothetical place where building codes were not a thing, the practical insulating value of a 20 yo terra cotta chimney flue around a new stainless flue liner would be significant, and the temperature of exhaust from a modern stove is also relatively l

Yes which is why I said they are probably good from a safety standpoint. But yes the exhaust temps are typically lower with modern stoves unless there is a chimney fire. Or someone leaves the air open.

 

[bholler]

Obviously the option to use the terra cotta flue without an installation of a stainless flue liner means the terra cotta flue is going to actually be much hotter than if a stainless liner, not further insulated, is fully sleeved. I'm saying that for the practical reality, not talking about how code effects anything, as a hypothetical. I've had people say to me that the terra cotta flue is considered insulation for the new flue liner accordingly, but I have no idea if that had any basis in actual compliance at the time. My understanding of the 'zero clearance' establishment from particular insulation material, is that it's recently introduced , for what that's worth practically (only).

No the temp of the terracotta will not be much lower. But you are missing the fact that the original terracotta lined chimney didn't meet code without the clearance. And can potentially pose a safety risk.

No terracotta doesn't serve as insulation. It is a very good heat conductor.

The clearance requirements and insulated liners have been around since the mid 80s. So that could be considered relatively recent depending upon the the time frame referenced. But is far from a new code

 

[ChimneyS]

At some point, aside from requirements to do installation work according to code compliance, it's still worth asking one's self if the code was written logically or would be better if changed?
Busting out a 8x8 terra cotta 20 yo flue in order to install a 6" stainless liner with compliant insulation thickness definitely is one of those times.
There are many other times as well.
It's pretty foul how there is such a political type of impediment to updating code to be more reasonable and logically practical.
I've seen a highly respected chimney innovator ask a member of a code board if improvements could be anticipated any time in the near future, and the reply was so swiftly 'no' that it was laughable.

 

[bholler]

At some point, aside from requirements to do installation work according to code compliance, it's still worth asking one's self if the code was written logically or would be better if changed?
Busting out a 8x8 terra cotta 20 yo flue in order to install a 6" stainless liner with compliant insulation thickness definitely is one of those times.
There are many other times as well.
It's pretty foul how there is such a political type of impediment to updating code to be more reasonable and logically practical.
I've seen a highly respected chimney innovator ask a member of a code board if improvements could be anticipated any time in the near future, and the reply was so swiftly 'no' that it was laughable.

You do realize the clearance requirements were put in the code because of know issues with fires created by heat transfer through the masonry structure. Nothing has changed in that respect at all and the performance benifits alone are well worth the trouble of insulating liners. So how is that code illogical?

I don't see why some people are so dead set against breaking out the old clay. Once you get used to it it generally only takes about an hour to do. It really isn't a big deal in most cases

 

[switepine]

It may work fine we just don't know. But how do you plan on attaching your pipe to that 8x8 liner?

And I don't doubt that if your chimney is actually that thick you should be fine with regards to safety. But it still needs the same clearances to meet code

I am really confused by this "Code clearance thang" no clue what you refer to?

 

[bholler]

At some point, aside from requirements to do installation work according to code compliance, it's still worth asking one's self if the code was written logically or would be better if changed?
Busting out a 8x8 terra cotta 20 yo flue in order to install a 6" stainless liner with compliant insulation thickness definitely is one of those times.
There are many other times as well.
It's pretty foul how there is such a political type of impediment to updating code to be more reasonable and logically practical.
I've seen a highly respected chimney innovator ask a member of a code board if improvements could be anticipated any time in the near future, and the reply was so swiftly 'no' that it was laughable.

Are you a chimney pro?

 

[bholler]

I am really confused by this "Code clearance thang" no clue what you refer to?

A chimney exhausting a solid fuel burner needs to have clearance from the outside of the masonry structure to any combustible materials. For an external chimney you need 1" for internal you need 2"

 

[switepine]

It may work fine we just don't know. But how do you plan on attaching your pipe to that 8x8 liner?

And I don't doubt that if your chimney is actually that thick you should be fine with regards to safety. But it still needs the same clearances to meet code

 

[switepine]

It may work fine we just don't know. But how do you plan on attaching your pipe to that 8x8 liner?

And I don't doubt that if your chimney is actually that thick you should be fine with regards to safety. But it still needs the same clearances to meet code

I am not sure if you are talking to me but I do not have a liner and if I did it would be single wall stainless 6". Can't get a 8" into a 6-3/4" Hole There is not wood within 1 FOOT or Two of any of this chimney be it ceramic tile liner or stainless liner. Adobe is Dirt and mortar cement grout, cannot burn. No way no how. I have no removed all of the damper which makes it much easier to attack either a flex liner or straight pipe. Either will have to be slightly oval to make the mantel width.

 

[bholler]

I am not sure if you are talking to me but I do not have a liner and if I did it would be single wall stainless 6". Can't get a 8" into a 6-3/4" Hole There is not wood within 1 FOOT or Two of any of this chimney be it ceramic tile liner or stainless liner. Adobe is Dirt and mortar cement grout, cannot burn. No way no how. I have no removed all of the damper which makes it much easier to attack either a flex liner or straight pipe. Either will have to be slightly oval to make the mantel width.

You do have a liner. It's a clay liner and if you plan on using that liner to vent your stove you need to figure out how to attach to it.

And the liner isn't what you need those clearances from it is the outside of the masonry chimney structure. Yes I know what adobe is. I know it doesn't burn. But it does transfer heat very well.

As I said with the thickness of your masonry structure I doubt there is a safety risk. But if combustibles touch the outside of your chimney it doesn't meet code

 

[switepine]

Unless there is something unusual about the baffle removal which would require pulling the stove for sweeping with a full length liner anyway, then it's highly likely that sweeping service will be 100 times easier with a full height liner. Even if pulling is required to sweep, it's still way better for sweeping with full length, in my opinion.
You usually don't really need to insulate the new liner when the terra cotta tiles stay in place. (This statement is not a haters invitation.)
And if you're doing the fireplace modifications yourself, then you are likely to be able to also install a full height flexible stainless liner yourself. It frankly is easier than setting up the tight connection of short piping to the damper area in many cases.
Just bust out the rear firebox upper area, and/or rear of damper frame in order to allow a relatively straight path for a stainless elbow at the bottom of the liner.
It does kinda suck that you have to notch the arched face brick. Don't forget that at some point of weakening the structure of the angled you are going to invite collapse of the upper center bricks and the little mantle area. If you could eliminate vibration hammering/chiseling of that face, it's advisable. Just cut out the notches with grinder/saw only. It may be possible to install a little quasi lintel/angle iron on the inside of the top of arch, but maybe too tricky given the curve, and unnecessary.
Having the ideal stove to fit there would be, again, ideal of course!
Wondering if it's possible to notch down into the whole hearth enough for the stove to sleeve in without changing the face arch. But big job, and it depends on what's below.

Well that brick you see that you fear I may damage structurally is in fact adobe, or clay real dirt block and is merely a decorative feature rather than structural as you may see in a stone/brick archway. I think it woudl be cool to see if there are many/any adobe guys and gals out there that could join in in a Adobe weighted convo. Problem these days is people hear "Adobe" and they think "stucco over frame" that is not Adobe. Stucco over Frame is Stucco over Frame. Adobe is clay sand and dirt with a minimal amount of lime and straw mixed in. (straw serves strictly as a fiber strengthener till the sun bakes the brick into a rock hard mass. These fireplaces are all lined with firebrick inside the whole interior of the fireplace before transitioning to adobe and underneath masonry block.

 

[switepine]

You do have a liner. It's a clay liner and if you plan on using that liner to vent your stove you need to figure out how to attach to it.

And the liner isn't what you need those clearances from it is the outside of the masonry chimney structure. Yes I know what adobe is. I know it doesn't burn. But it does transfer heat very well.

As I said with the thickness of your masonry structure I doubt there is a safety risk. But if combustibles touch the outside of your chimney it doesn't meet code

the only thing outside of the adobe is air. That does not burn. Adobe does NOT transfer heat at all sorry it holds heat. And I have said several times it is 1' transitioning to 2-3 feet thick NOT INCHES> (Not yelling just trying to make you absorb that info!) It holds heat but certainly since the Ark there has been no wood the burst into flames from adobe transferring heat!
I am not sure why we seem to be arguing about this strange simple set of facts.

 

[stoveliker]

I'd be interested in hearing from pros about adobr chimneys - with clay (or uninsulated steel) liners. Because the letter of the law would make that illegal, because straw is combustible.

I do see it's enclosed (straw in mortar, not seeing outside air), and not likely a hazard. But those who wrote the code did not think about this, I surmise.

 

[switepine]

You do have a liner. It's a clay liner and if you plan on using that liner to vent your stove you need to figure out how to attach to it.

And the liner isn't what you need those clearances from it is the outside of the masonry chimney structure. Yes I know what adobe is. I know it doesn't burn. But it does transfer heat very well.

As I said with the thickness of your masonry structure I doubt there is a safety risk. But if combustibles touch the outside of your chimney it doesn't meet code

the purpose of my inquire did NOT have anything to do with safety or burning down the house it had to do with wondering if it should be sufficient for draft or any other reason that would drive the need to use a stainless liner.

 

[switepine]

I'd be interested in hearing from pros about adobr chimneys - with clay (or uninsulated steel) liners. Because the letter of the law would make that illegal, because straw is combustible.

I do see it's enclosed (straw in mortar, not seeing outside air), and not likely a hazard. But those who wrote the code did not think about this, I surmise.

Straw is used to bind it and is in the dirt and not combustible

 

[stoveliker]

Adobe has an r value of 4.1 for a 10" thickness . Brick has an r value of 2 for a 10" thickness.

Just giving some numbers.

That means adobe conducts less well than brick but it still conducts pretty good.

 

[stoveliker]

Straw is used to bind it and is in the dirt and not combustible

Straw is combustible. Period.
Adobe is not (if straw is not penetrating the surface).

 

[bholler]

the only thing outside of the adobe is air. That does not burn. Adobe does NOT transfer heat at all sorry it holds heat. And I have said several times it is 1' transitioning to 2-3 feet thick NOT INCHES> (Not yelling just trying to make you absorb that info!) It holds heat but certainly since the Ark there has been no wood the burst into flames from adobe transferring heat!
I am not sure why we seem to be arguing about this strange simple set of facts.

I understand that info which again is why I said I don't see a safety issue in your case. I am not arguing with you about it. But if there is any wood in contact with the outside of the chimney structure it doesn't meet code.

Then you have the performance issue. As you stated that Adobe chimney is a massive heatsink. That means it's going to absorb lots of heat from the exhaust. In a modern stove that is a very bad thing.

I am still wondering how you are planning on connecting your pipe to the clay liner

 

[switepine]

Straw is combustible. Period.
Adobe is not (if straw is not penetrating the surface).

o m g

 

[bholler]

the purpose of my inquire did NOT have anything to do with safety or burning down the house it had to do with wondering if it should be sufficient for draft or any other reason that would drive the need to use a stainless liner.

I refuse to give advice on a chimney without looking at all factors. That includes safety legality and performance

 

[switepine]

I understand that info which again is why I said I don't see a safety issue in your case. I am not arguing with you about it. But if there is any wood in contact with the outside of the chimney structure it doesn't meet code.

Then you have the performance issue. As you stated that Adobe chimney is a massive heatsink. That means it's going to absorb lots of heat from the exhaust. In a modern stove that is a very bad thing.

I am still wondering how you are planning on connecting your pipe to the clay liner

I will not be connecting it to the clay liner but I will be making a baffle that closes off the chamber of the Hearth and woodstove. and perhaps that is the reason people insist that a liner directly connected to the stove is so important? If I do not use a liner I guess you would call it a loose connection unlike a firm connestion of a direct pipe.