Liner, or no?

[stockdoct]

When I had my Lopi Freedom installed last fall, my installer and I decided to keep the costs down, NOT to put in chimney liner. The chimney is large, 30 ft. tall with awesome draft. We thought we'd wait through the first season to "see how things went" before making a decision to line or not.

The year went fine. Burned about 2 1/2 cords of wood, fire starts quickly with a 1" chunk of wax-log firestarter and dry wood. Never had a problem with backdraft all winter. No chimney fires (thank god) even though I intentionally had a very hot fire one or twice a week to try and prevent creosote build-up. The chimney is almost 100 years old, but still looks fine without cracks or missing bricks.

Should I re-consider putting a liner in, or leave things the way they are?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Well, that would depend on the cross section measurements of the chimney vs the insert you have installed. Liners dont only provide good draft, they also make the insert perform how it is supposed to perform maximizing heat output and fuel consumption. Inserts are designed to run on a certain size flue. Normally you can go up one size with some loss of perfomance, much more then that you are seriously impeading the perfomance of the insert. For example, a 6" insert that is hooked up to an 8" flue is like like a honda accord with a v8 engine installed in it. Sure it will work, but its not optimizing the design of the car. Of course the dangerouns by product of a oversized flue is that the condensation of flue gas is much higher, with much more creosote formation. The other part of this is cleaning. Its a pita to clean the chimney when you have to pull the insert to do it.

 

[BrotherBart]

Is there a tile liner in that chimney?

 

[stockdoct]

I haven't the foggiest idea.


In 15 years, we've had the chimney swept only once (3-4 years ago) and even then there was very little stuff removed. He didn't comment on the anatomy of the chimney. I plan on getting it swept this spring and will certainly ask.

 

[stoveguy13]

At the age of the chimney if it is 100 yrs old there is not much likelyhood that the chimney would not have a cracked tile or two if there are any even in it i would re-line for sure make me sleep better.

 

[Wet1]

I'm in a similar boat and I'm doing mine for a lot more piece of mind.

 

[Michael6268]

I would line it. Depending on the age of the home you may not even have a tile liner in there. Also as MSG said, cleaning is a royal "Pain in the Butt" without one. You can get a liner and if handy install it yourself. I did mine and it took all of approx an hour or so. You'l sleep better, your stove will perform better and cleaning will be a breeze.

 

[begreen]

It looks like there are two tile liners showing at the top. One already has a stainless liner in it. What's connected to that? The other liner looks fairly large (8x8 or 10x10?) is that for the fireplace?

 

[BrotherBart]

That roof and chimney are downright scary.

 

[stockdoct]

That roof and chimney are downright scary.

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I would rather jump out of an airplane than clean my chimney top-down. And installing a liner??? I'll pay someone else to do that job. At least with an airplane you have a parachute. I tried the Soot Eater but was very disappointed --- didn't get a thing.


I don't really understand how liners work or how they fit together with inserts ..... why is cleaning a liner easier than cleaning a chimney? Would I really have to remove the insert to get my chimney cleaned as it sits now? God, I hope not

 

[stockdoct]

It looks like there are two tile liners showing at the top. One already has a stainless liner in it. What’s connected to that? The other liner looks fairly large (8x8 or 10x10?) is that for the fireplace?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, there are two exits coming out side-by-side. I know the one facing the front of the house is from the fireplace; it smokes when I'm beginning a fire. I assume the one by the back of the house was for an old furnace(?) but I don't see anything coming from it.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

That roof and chimney are downright scary.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would rather jump out of an airplane than clean my chimney top-down. And installing a liner??? I'll pay someone else to do that job. At least with an airplane you have a parachute. I tried the Soot Eater but was very disappointed --- didn't get a thing.


I don't really understand how liners work or how they fit together with inserts ..... why is cleaning a liner easier than cleaning a chimney? Would I really have to remove the insert to get my chimney cleaned as it sits now? God, I hope not

If you sweep your chimney they way it is installed now, then all the creosote is going on top of the insert and all over the place around the box. You will have to remove the surround to get it all cleaned up, and its real hard to get behind the insert to clean up the mess. When a liner is attached, you brush everything down to the baffle inside the insert, and vacuum that out. Much cleaner and easier. If you don't have room to clean between the insert and the firebox, you will have to pull the insert to clean out the firebox. You cant leave creosote sitting on top of the stove or lost behind it.

 

[Wet1]

That roof and chimney are downright scary.

That's why I've been taking my time getting around to doing mine... Mine is five feet higher and the roof pitch just as bad, if not worse. Did I mention I hate heights???

 

[fossil]

The profile of the masonry structure is typical of one which serves two fireplaces, then has two separate parallel flues to daylight. What's in the basement? The deal about cleaning is this: without a liner, when the chimney's swept, everything just falls down on top of the insert...then what do you do? What you do is pull the insert and remove the sweepings and re-install the insert. If the insert's connected to a full liner, everything falls into the firebox and gets vacuumed out from there...no need to remove the insert from the fireplace. Depending on the actual size of the interior of the masonry flue, it could be that you're installation is not in compliance with the recommendations of NFPA 211. If your insert has a 6" diameter flue collar, the cross-sectional area is ~28 in², and NFPA 211 says that for venting a solid fuel-burning appliance into an exterior masonry chimney structure, you need to no more than double the area. So, you can dump the insert into a flue up to ~56 in². Even an 8"x8" is in excess of this. I think you oughta figure out what the second flue was for, have a thorough professional cleaning and inspection done, and I think you oughta seriously consider a full insulated liner for the insert installation. Rick

 

[stockdoct]

I'm beginning to understand. Thanks for all your patience with me.

I called a chimney sweep who told me he wouldn't touch my chimney. To sweep it, he would (as you've told me) pull out the insert. But when sweeping, he's certain he would find something inside the hearth or the chimney of ANY 100 year old house that would violate code for wood burning inserts. After sweeping he would not put the insert back into the hearth, because he would then be the "installer" that I could sue when someday I have a housefire and he was the one who "installed" it against code.

My original installer, by the way, tells me I DO have a clay-tile lined chimney. He wants to help me, but he doesn't sweep chimneys. And he's NOT particularly thrilled about climbing to my scary roof with a 30 ft. liner, and is worried that the very difficult install might damage the liner and actually create more problems. "If it's not broke, don't fix it" is his motto too.

What I might have to do, is to remove the insert with help from my original installer, have the chimney sweep come and do a thorough sweeping and inspection, and me and my original installer will re-install the insert.

 

[stoveguy13]

safety first it is widow maker of a chimney but it is doable if there is no liner or even if there is one it is most likely not in good shape because of the age of it if you dont want to work on the roof or a ladder you can always rent a lift. it will cost you some money but is worth it if you ask me

 

[stockdoct]

I just had a funny thought

I wonder if I could make something like an upside down umbrella that I could insert up through the flue, then "open" it, and have the chimney cleaned from the top down. Any debris would then be caught by the umbrella and funneled down into my insert firebox. That way, I wouldn't have to remove the insert and re-install it.

Chiminioscopy is a neat idea --- I talked about that with my original installer today.

 

[johnn]

Sounds to me like you have a well designed insert and well seasoned wood. My chimney (west wall) catches the bulk of winter and is just like yours serving a fireplace in the basement and first floor insert. Seperate tile flues measuring close to 8x12 (measurement from the wire brush I use). Thats close to 96" of draw versus the 28" of an 6" liner. Definitely have a v-8 installed. I have not been as lucky as you but my insert is pre EPA. I will also burn a few Chimney Sweep logs a season, but still have encountered chimney fires! Dogs usually hear it first and go nuts!! LINER goes in this year come rain or high water!
Do you remember if the installer put in a short piece of liner to get past the smoke chamber or not? I think that may have been the old standard. I think you know my recomendation. Sorry about the accesibility issue to sweep, fortunately I dont have that problem.
Good Luck in your decision (near st. louis burning 24/7 during winter)

 

[DAKSY]

Uh, Hey, fossil,

Even an 8"x8" is in excess of this.

Not around here it's not.
I don't know about the left coast, but our 8x8 flue tiles are measured outside to outside
& generally have about a 1" (+/-) wall thickness...
We end up with (roughly) a 6x6 inside dimension...
36 sq in...
From my personal install experience (5 yrs), a 6"
liner is a MUTHAH to get into an 8x8...
ONE shifted clay tile screws everything up...
We generally hafta downsize to a 5.5" dia...

 

[stockdoct]

Here's a diagram of how my insert was installed. Page 13 of the owner's manual.

(broken link removed to http://www.travisbuilder.com/TravisDocs/100-01162-old.pdf)

I can certainly see why my attempt at the "Soot-Eater" didn't bring much chimney debris into the firebox, it's probably just on top and behind my insert!


Wouldn't it be possible to have the chimney swept professionally, then remove the "surround panels and insulation", stick a flexible-hosed shop-vac in there and suck up all the chimney debris. I could possibly get the job done without removing the insert.

Thoughts?

 

[BrotherBart]

Won't work stockdot. In fact those "slammer" installations are illegal in most localities. Had one for 20 years and they are not only a pain in the butt, they are extremely dangerous. What happens is the smoke chamber just above the insert gets heavily coated with creosote no matter what you do or how you burn. And the only way to get it off is to pull the insert and chip the stuff off. That or it will ignite and burn as a chimney fire as mine sometimes did.

At a very minimum you need to change it to a "direct connection" like is shown on page 12 to get the smoke and flue gases past the smoke chamber of the chimney.

 

[stockdoct]

It actually might be the page 12 style installation. I've got a call into my installer now, to question him .....

 

[stockdoct]

I'm certain. I've been slammed.


I can reach my hand up through the outlet, past the insert's baffle and slide my hand across the top of the insert, pushing creosote gravel back into the stove. There's no block off plate or stove-pipe going up. chit. So creosote gravel can fall on the top of the stove or behind the stove, where its pretty darn hot when burning wood.

I'm going to look through city code and see if thats a violation; if it is .......

And I'll work on getting a liner to go right up the chimney before burning season begins.

 

[karri0n]

I'm certain. I've been slammed.


I can reach my hand up through the outlet, past the insert's baffle and slide my hand across the top of the insert, pushing creosote gravel back into the stove. There's no block off plate or stove-pipe going up. chit. So creosote gravel can fall on the top of the stove or behind the stove, where its pretty darn hot when burning wood.

I'm going to look through city code and see if thats a violation; if it is .......

And I'll work on getting a liner to go right up the chimney before burning season begins.

Sorry to hear this, but that's definitely a pretty unsafe installation. Hopefully your installer will work with you on this. Does the sweep you talked to do installs? It sounds from your interaction with him that he is a better person to go to than your slammer installer, since he was so concerned about the slammer install in the first place.

 

[begreen]

Good that you investigated Mike. That sounds like a creosote factory. I know it's a pita, but find a certified sweep to really clean that chimney well. If they need to use a cherry picker, then so be it. Then have an insulated liner installed and a damper block-off plate. The stove will perform 100% better and will put out a whole lot more heat, meaning you'll burn a lot less wood for the same comfort level. Given the height of the chimney, you might want to discuss going down to a 5.5" liner.