Pulling it up from the bottom will be the way to install a liner in that chimney. There are special winches for the job but one person on top pulling and one on bottom feeding it in can get it done.
Liner, or no?
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Here's my installer's version:
There's no code violation in my city concerning that method of installation
Lopi offers that style of installation in their installation guide.
And (this is a point I can't argue with) This is a fireplace that's been burning dirty, open flames and smoke in that smoke chamber for 90 years --- why would creosote suddenly start building up in the smoke chamber now that you've installed a high-efficiency insert. The amount of smoke I'm releasing now in a month doesn't add up to the amount of smoke I was releasing every day I burned my old fireplace.
By the way, I connected a length of garden hose to my shop-vac and threaded it into the smoke chamber and down to the floor of the fireplace. Very difficult, but I was clearly tapping the hose unto the fireplace's floor and when I turned the shop-vac on, I only was able to suck up traces of debris from the floor behind the stove. I was worried it might be an inch deep or something, and its clearly not. Got about 1/4 cupful off the top of the stove with my hand.
There's no code violation in my city concerning that method of installation
Lopi offers that style of installation in their installation guide.
And (this is a point I can't argue with) This is a fireplace that's been burning dirty, open flames and smoke in that smoke chamber for 90 years --- why would creosote suddenly start building up in the smoke chamber now that you've installed a high-efficiency insert. The amount of smoke I'm releasing now in a month doesn't add up to the amount of smoke I was releasing every day I burned my old fireplace.
By the way, I connected a length of garden hose to my shop-vac and threaded it into the smoke chamber and down to the floor of the fireplace. Very difficult, but I was clearly tapping the hose unto the fireplace's floor and when I turned the shop-vac on, I only was able to suck up traces of debris from the floor behind the stove. I was worried it might be an inch deep or something, and its clearly not. Got about 1/4 cupful off the top of the stove with my hand.
stoveguy13
Minister of Fire
stockdoct said:
Temperature is MUCH higher in the smoke chamber with a huge open fire roaring vs being enclosed in a steel box. The masonry will heat up really quickly with flames licking it, which really isn't the case when the fire is contained in the firebox. The smoke will hit those cold masonry walls and condense as creosote. Sure, it's less smoke, but the velocity that it's moving upwards at will be much lower, and the exhaust is cooling much sooner than it would in an open fireplace.
The other issue is that, without a blockoff plate, a very good portion of your heat is getting sucked right up the chimney, and not going into your house like it would with an insulated blockoff plate and liner. This isn't as pressing as the safety concerns.
There has been a lot of knowledgeable people following this thread, and I hope to ask a questin before they lose interest, so here goes! Each year I remove my insert, inserted into a fireplace with no liner and throughly clean. You can only reach up so far past the flue, to just slightly above the ash ledge and clean out that area. Does the cavity behind the ash ledge go down to the bottom of the firebox? I can only scoop out so much. Also, is the purpose of this ledge`s design to trap the falling sediments from above and contain them, or is its role to induce draw?
Thanks john
Thanks john
ml said:
I have never been able to figure out the purpose of that "ledge" but most fireplaces have it. 15 years ago a guy in my office that had burned wood for years and had a "pro" clean his chimney every year had a massive chimney fire. The fire department's assessment was that the creosote in and on that shelf lit off and damn near burned his house down. The sweep wasn't cleaning the "smoke shelf". It was a slammer wood insert installation.
Every year that I had that slammer installation I scooped gallons of creosote out of that smoke shelf every time I pulled that 650 pound sucker out to clean the chimney. And chipped another few gallons of stage 3 glaze off of the surface of the smoke chamber walls. Except in the years when it lit off and burned. Got tired of it and finally put the liner in when I found out on hearth.com that they were out there.
My response to that idiot installer would be, you come over here and sleep in this house when that stove is cranking. And bring your kids. Seriously. He is just scared to climb up there.
Gallons would be a rather accurate assesment. I`d tell him,,"not to worry, my dog will let you know long before the smoke alarm went off"! I know ther is at least one insert out there with wheels in the back? (I think) Seems a patent is in order for those chimney set ups that require bottom only sweeps. perhaps a more rigid block off plate with a coupling of sorts, in order to replace that short section of liner if damaged from removal and installs.
LeonMSPT
Minister of Fire
An 8x8 liner coming off an open fireplace? Small fireplace? Last I knew, the flu coming off a fireplace had to be something like 1/10 the size of the opening of the fireplace or some figure like that... not fully sure of the figure but the rationale was in order to prevent smoke from gushing back into the house you have to pull enough air through the fireplace opening to move it up the chimney.
Slammers and the like are just poison. Done when they literally didn't know any better. We now know well better, and there's lot's of new houses and old foundations with charred timbers in them serving as examples of why we have to do it right.
Lighting a fire in a perfectly good house, with people living and sleeping in it just doesn't make any sense to people who burn oil, gas, and electricity to heat their home. It only makes the slightest bit of sense when it's done as safely as is practical.
Slammers and the like are just poison. Done when they literally didn't know any better. We now know well better, and there's lot's of new houses and old foundations with charred timbers in them serving as examples of why we have to do it right.
Lighting a fire in a perfectly good house, with people living and sleeping in it just doesn't make any sense to people who burn oil, gas, and electricity to heat their home. It only makes the slightest bit of sense when it's done as safely as is practical.
The 8x8 was just in referance to the cross section formula.
Stockdoct hasn`t been able to gain access to measure his liner (or verify one exists). He appears however , to have a no less than "remarkable" clean burn history. I think everyone is leary of saying "it`ll be OK".
Stockdoct hasn`t been able to gain access to measure his liner (or verify one exists). He appears however , to have a no less than "remarkable" clean burn history. I think everyone is leary of saying "it`ll be OK".
LeonMSPT
Minister of Fire
I've got to admit, I'm not a professional. I've only done three inserts with full liners. Most full sized open fireplaces have a flu coming off them you could drive a truck through. Some offsets in chimneys can be challenging, and there is always the potential for a tile that slipped before it set up and constricted things smaller than the design dimensions.
I think I am not even leary saying "it'll be okay". I think anyone who would give that kind of advice is an even bigger fool than anyone who would accept it.
Don't want to scare anybody. But, fire is DANGEROUS. Even if it's done "perfectly"... done less than as safe as is practical it's just plain suicidal.
I think I am not even leary saying "it'll be okay". I think anyone who would give that kind of advice is an even bigger fool than anyone who would accept it.
Don't want to scare anybody. But, fire is DANGEROUS. Even if it's done "perfectly"... done less than as safe as is practical it's just plain suicidal.
ml said:
LeonMSPT
Minister of Fire
Based on observation of fire, smoke, and fireplaces, over the years as a user, observer, and a firefighter.
The smoke ledge in the fireplace acts to concentrate the draft at the front of the fireplace. It does several things, all of which are good. It reduces the amount of draft striking "directly" on the flames in the fireplace. Extending burn times and reducing flame intrusion into the chimney above the fireplace. Likely reduces the number of chimney fires to a degree. It also "regulates" the amount of air that can pass through the fireplace at any given time, in either direction. Likely cuts down some on heat loss, as well as reducing but not eliminating smoke puff backs or downdrafts.
Lastly... drawing the smoke off the front edge of the fireplace cavity, it reduces the amount of smoke emissions back into the house in any event. The most smoke will be removed from the fireplace and out of the house, drawing it off the front.
That said... useless when used with an insert. Very carefully inspect the structure of the fireplace. And persistently cut that thing out and get rid of it, put a liner in, insulate the liner, and positively connect it to the insert. You won't be disappointed.
The smoke ledge in the fireplace acts to concentrate the draft at the front of the fireplace. It does several things, all of which are good. It reduces the amount of draft striking "directly" on the flames in the fireplace. Extending burn times and reducing flame intrusion into the chimney above the fireplace. Likely reduces the number of chimney fires to a degree. It also "regulates" the amount of air that can pass through the fireplace at any given time, in either direction. Likely cuts down some on heat loss, as well as reducing but not eliminating smoke puff backs or downdrafts.
Lastly... drawing the smoke off the front edge of the fireplace cavity, it reduces the amount of smoke emissions back into the house in any event. The most smoke will be removed from the fireplace and out of the house, drawing it off the front.
That said... useless when used with an insert. Very carefully inspect the structure of the fireplace. And persistently cut that thing out and get rid of it, put a liner in, insulate the liner, and positively connect it to the insert. You won't be disappointed.
ansehnlich1
Retired Hearth.com Member
hey i ain't no rocket scientist but after reading this entire thread sounds like this dude should line his chimney 
stoveguy13
Minister of Fire
the ledge is called the smoke shelf used to stand on to clean the chimney long ago no real use anymore
LeonMSPT
Minister of Fire
LeonMSPT
Minister of Fire
Maybe that's why everybody with an open fireplace these days is bitching about smoke coming back into the house? It didn't take five minutes to find this.
Someday, when everybody has their own personal flying saucer... someone is going to get nostalgic and rebuild a 69 corvette. They'll have it running, and get in and fire it up with no wheels on it. And say, "Oh for crying out loud. It runs fine, but it won't go anywhere."
We forgot how to build them.
Someday, when everybody has their own personal flying saucer... someone is going to get nostalgic and rebuild a 69 corvette. They'll have it running, and get in and fire it up with no wheels on it. And say, "Oh for crying out loud. It runs fine, but it won't go anywhere."
We forgot how to build them.
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I discussed with a man who's done a the job since 1981, putting a liner into my chimney and he was insistent he do it abiding by all regulations and AFPA policies. He seems very concerned about lawsuits and me suing him if I ever get a chimney fire, and he needs to do it "by the books". He also said he would not do the job unless he could install with a top-of-the-line insulated Ventinox liner. He would drive the 40 miles to come do the job and would bring scaffolding to climb safely to the top of my scary chimney to do the job right.
He says, due to to distance and the scaffolding and the Ventinox liner, it would cost "twice as much as usual" to do the job.
What do y'all think is a reasonable price to have an experienced chimney man come 40 miles with scaffolding, to install a state-of-the-art liner into a 30 ft. chimney?
I'll get the quote in the next week or so, but I'm thinking I need to get another quote or two before I get the job done.
He says, due to to distance and the scaffolding and the Ventinox liner, it would cost "twice as much as usual" to do the job.
What do y'all think is a reasonable price to have an experienced chimney man come 40 miles with scaffolding, to install a state-of-the-art liner into a 30 ft. chimney?
I'll get the quote in the next week or so, but I'm thinking I need to get another quote or two before I get the job done.
short of reading entire thread,,,i`m just going to go from memory as the thread grew. I hope this helps ;-) There have been many threads discussing liners from experienced members, and many manufacturer types have been discussed, all of which have had good reviews, and many of them are utilized in much colder areas than Illinois. When he says "top of the line, insulated liner" is he refering to a rigid double wall liner or a flex liner with a insulation wrap protected by wire mesh? (hate to see you pay the price for a double wall and get a flex liner) Double wall pipes typically are most difficult to install in a chimney) especially sight un-seen. He may be quoting you a price to cover many variables, some of which he may not encounter. To achieve a quote sight unseen you really need to provide the size of the chimney liner, (have you determined there is a clay liner?) Should be able to see one looking through your flue of the fireplace. You somehow need a close measurement for he may need to step down to a 5 1/2" liner. (they going to bring one of each size?)$500 of flex liner and associated parts, without insulation may cost $1000 to install at say 25ft.(very rough estimate). Sometimes the masonry at top of chimney must be chiseled out and repoured after installation. Is that something your being quoted for that may not be necessary? That tile at the top does not reflect that you have tile all the way down, and may have to be removed in order to not tear up the insulation while installing. Get as close of measurement on heighth you can. Is this quote going to include a block off plate (solid) just inside the fireplace above the stove, or a soft block off which usually is just insulation stuffed up around the flue.Hard block off is best and very well may not be included in quote. In my oppinion an accurate quote can only be given in person with a forty foot ladder in order to measure that tile, otherwise you will be quoted a price to cover many variables. Sorry so windy,,,Just want you to get a fair shake.
MountainStoveGuy
Minister of Fire
I got a second quote ..... before the first guy even got back to me. For a sweep of the chimney and install of a double walled flexible SS liner with durability to 2100 degrees ......... $1200 And this team (4 certified sweeps in one business) is willing to get on the roof without scaffolding or a cherry picker.
Is this a standard liner most people use, or should I insist on getting a rigid or insulated liner? Again, my main concern is safety from creosote accumulation and ease of sweeping, not improving the draft or function of the stove
Is this a standard liner most people use, or should I insist on getting a rigid or insulated liner? Again, my main concern is safety from creosote accumulation and ease of sweeping, not improving the draft or function of the stove
MountainStoveGuy
Minister of Fire
$1200 seems like a steal on that chimney. What is a double walled stainless steel liner? Do you mean a single wall liner wrapped with insulation? I would get the chimney liner insulated. Its further protection from fire, it also keeps the flue gas hotter which condensates less, produces less creosote, therefor makes it easier to clean. Insulation is used to bring broken chimnies up to current standards. Like if you have broken flue tiles, the insulation wil protect the structure behind the flue tiles. The nice side benifit of insulation is a hotter chimney that produces less creosote, expecially towards the top and cap where your going to have most of your problems.
MountainStoveGuy said:
It is two ply liner. A regular crimped outer ply with a smoother inner ply. Usually around .012 to .014 inches thick. Tough stuff but not insulated..
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