Looking for new stove or furnace advice

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

Hi Folks, I have been lurking for awhile trying to learn and thought I would post here and see if some good advice would come my way.

I bought a house this summer on about 14 acres that has a electric heat pump as the main source of heat, a non-vented aesthetic propane heater, and no wood or other heat option. I want to add heat from wood into the house. I just ordered parts for a 6" chimney flue which is insulated Class A and it will be through the wall of my walk out basement and then up 28 feet with one pair of 15 degree elbows for the eave.

The walk out basement is about 1356 sq feet with the same living space above it on the main level. The basement ceiling is unfinished and it is just subfloor and a wood laminate type flooring so thus no insulation. There is a cathedral ceiling A frame style above half of the house and then a second floor of 680 square feet has a hallway that opens up to the open air space. So any heat on the main level will easily rise and heat the two bedrooms upstairs. It appears well insulated with 2x6 exterior wall construction although the 12" block wall in the basement is not insulated. The stairway up from the basement is centered in the middle of the main level so if that door was open, then heat could flow up the stairway.

Now with all of that said, I am having trouble deciding what type of wood stove or forced air furnace to purchase. I have thought of a simple wood stove in the basement to heat up that area as that is where we have a den with TV and so forth and then warm area would heat the floor and flow up the stairway. We are often gone all day except weekends and so it is mostly for supplemental heat while we are home and to keep the electric bill lower. Something with long burn times might be good. I would love to have a good way of heating domestic hot water for we have a large jacuzzi tub and I hate using our propane hot water heater to heat all that water. At some point I would love to add a hot tub and figure out a way to heat that with wood as well. Most simple wood stoves I have seen have no DHW option. I want something to heat the house if power is out and blowers are not working.

I have wondered about a furnace such as the Max Caddy with good looking hot water coils but it is at the upper edge of what I would like to spend money wise. I might go that direction but my funds are limited at the moment. If I bought a standard type wood stove, I could later put that in my insulated garage. I hear the Kuuma has a domestic HW coil but no idea how large it is and that furnace seems very pricey.

Right now I have zero firewood on hand but I know how to make that change quickly. Even so this winter I do not expect to have really well seasoned firewood on hand. Other years should be better.

Any thoughts on particular wood stoves or furnaces? I was not sure which thread category to stick this post.

 

[Highbeam]

So like 3400 SF of three story house.

Heating wood with water is generally not worth the effort unless your wood heater is a boiler.

The max caddy has been copied/retrofitted/resold by Drolet and is being offered by them as the Drolet Heat Pro for somewhere near 2500$ or about half the price of a Kuuma. Would be a great furnace to use with your existing ducts. It is supposed to get 12 hours per load.

You want long burn times. To get burn times longer than 12 hours or so then you need to go to a catalytic wood burner. My princess has a 30 hour burntime on low so one loading per day will keep the stove running. It's not ducted though so heat will have to travel between floors and the princess will have a hard time heating such a huge house. To get a larger cat stove you need a bigger chimney. 8" for the big king model stove that can burn for 40 hours or 7" for a BK catalytic furnace that could burn in 24 hour cycles easily, supposedly 40 hours per load.

You can use a non-cat furnace tied into the ductwork and only load/burn once per day when you get home and it will more evenly heat the house but require some heat pump heat to maintain a temperature in the home or you can just let it cool between firings.

 

[begreen]

I've move this thread to the boiler room for better coverage of boiler or furnace questions. Can you also post a new thread in the main hearth forum specifically on stoves?

 

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

I've move this thread to the boiler room for better coverage of boiler or furnace questions. Can you also post a new thread in the main hearth forum specifically on stoves?

Sure I will be happy to post something specific there.

 

[GENECOP]

Any kind of decent boiler /furnace setup will cost you a bit..maybe start off with a nice wood stove or two, used you can find some deals....maybe add a coil to a wood stove for domestic...

 

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

Well after some more thought and discussion on wood stoves I believe I am wanting to go a forced air wood furnace route. The Kuuma Vapor fire 100 looks very nice, the PSG Caddy looks pretty good, the Drolet HeatPro or Tundra might work well, and the Fire Chief 700 looks decent, and countless others are available. Decisions are harder when the dollars get bigger. One lingering question I have is the best way to run duct work if I put a furnace in? I have existing ducts for the heat pump but I wonder what happens if that system of ducts was trying to be used at the same time by both the wood and the electric system? Would a totally separate system be better? Where the wood furnace will sit is about 15' from my other furnace and I have plenty of working room. If it could be tied in together would that seem better so new vents need not be added? From the existing plenum, there are two main trunk lines extending horizontal that feed the main level and then one that runs vertical to the 2nd floor. Pushing heat to the 2nd floor through vents is not needed in my opinion because of my floor plan. Each horizontal trunk line appears to have a manual damper in close to the furnace. Perhaps a good thread is already available on this that I have not found.

 

[motoguy]

One lingering question I have is the best way to run duct work if I put a furnace in? I have existing ducts for the heat pump but I wonder what happens if that system of ducts was trying to be used at the same time by both the wood and the electric system?

1-way flappers/dampers exist, and need to be installed if tying a wood furnace in with an existing furnace. I'm waiting on delivery of my Kuuma Vaporfire 100. It's going to be sitting approx 25 feet from my existing propane furnace. The ducting from the Kuuma will exit the Kuuma, make a 90 degree turn after about 8 feet, run another 17 feet or so, then enter the plenum above my propane furnace.

While I could install the ducting, I don't have the time or proper tools. I'm going to have a pro duct from the Kuuma to the propane furnace. Keep in mind ductwork requirements for solid fuel (wood) furnaces are different than other furnaces. 1" of clearance required for ducts to combustibles, all ductwork must be metal, etc. I'm going to have to replace essentially all the lines from the main trunk to the assorted vents. They are currently all that soft/insulated ductwork. I'll be able to do that part myself, though, before using the furnace.

 

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

Well all my ductwork is rigid metal at least in the basement. The round ducts I think have 1" clearance but the rectangular parts are directly against the wood I-beams. The attic had some flexible type stuff so I might then want to damper the upstairs off as the attic has a metal trunk up and then flexible ducts to the vents in the ceiling.

 

[brenndatomu]

The max caddy has been copied/retrofitted/resold by Drolet and is being offered by them as the Drolet Heat Pro

Just so everybody is clear, PSG maker of the Caddy line, is the same company as Drolet, owned by parent co. SBI. Kinda like Ford, Mercury, Lincoln. The Max Caddy is the Lincoln, Heatpro is the Ford...
Seems like your are leaning to a furnace, sounds right to me, a stove will heat the basement ok but the heat will not make it to the upstairs very well unless you want to put in vents closer to the outside walls to allow cold air return. If the stove was close to the open stairwell you could probably get a good convective loop with the return vents in place.
I am a big Kuuma fan, but if it is gonna be in the den, I would want a view of the fire, not an option with the Kuuma or the Firechief either IIRC.
How you get the heat upstairs depends a little on which furnace you go with. If you go with the Tundra, then it would be pretty easy to run two new separate 8" ducts upstairs, but the Heatpro calls for a minimum of six 6" runs. The Caddys would probably be easier to just tie into your existing ducts as long as the meet the CTC (clearance to combustibles) requirement. Some furnaces call for as much as 6" for the first 6-10' of run and then between 1-2" thereafter, depending on the brand/model.
If the hot water coil is a deal breaker then I think that limits you to no view of the fire, or going with a Caddy or Max Caddy. FYI, call around for Caddy prices, they can vary wildly from dealer to dealer. If you are into a road trip, there is a dealer in Ohio that sells 'em reasonably...

 

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

Just so everybody is clear, PSG maker of the Caddy line, is the same company as Drolet, owned by parent co. SBI. Kinda like Ford, Mercury, Lincoln. The Max Caddy is the Lincoln, Heatpro is the Ford...
Seems like your are leaning to a furnace, sounds right to me, a stove will heat the basement ok but the heat will not make it to the upstairs very well unless you want to put in vents closer to the outside walls to allow cold air return. If the stove was close to the open stairwell you could probably get a good convective loop with the return vents in place.
I am a big Kuuma fan, but if it is gonna be in the den, I would want a view of the fire, not an option with the Kuuma or the Firechief either IIRC.
How you get the heat upstairs depends a little on which furnace you go with. If you go with the Tundra, then it would be pretty easy to run two new separate 8" ducts upstairs, but the Heatpro calls for a minimum of six 6" runs. The Caddys would probably be easier to just tie into your existing ducts as long as the meet the CTC (clearance to combustibles) requirement. Some furnaces call for as much as 6" for the first 6-10' of run and then between 1-2" thereafter, depending on the brand/model.
If the hot water coil is a deal breaker then I think that limits you to no view of the fire, or going with a Caddy or Max Caddy. FYI, call around for Caddy prices, they can vary wildly from dealer to dealer. If you are into a road trip, there is a dealer in Ohio that sells 'em reasonably...

Having a view of the fire is not a big deal to me as where it will sit in the basement is away from the main use area. I still love seeing a fire burning but not a deal breaker. In looking at my existing ductwork it would be difficult to tie into that and make the clearances to combustibles be ok. I think the far easier approach would be to run some new ducts to a few key spots but I will think on that more. A bunch of new vents everywhere does not sound exciting. I was thinking of leaving the cold air return open to the basement and then adding a couple of paths for air to flow from the main level down to the basement. But perhaps I could tie the cold air return into the existing air return ducts since clearances would not be a problem there.

The heatmax with all the round vents seems kinda a pain in the neck for me to deal with. Running a trunk from the furnace down the length of the house and splitting off vents seems much better and I could run all the vent pipes inside my wood ibeam floor for a clean appearance, excepting the trunk which would hang below the joists and be perpendicular to them.

I wish there were some dealers of wood furnaces around me where I could see the various furnaces in person. Nothing like an in person interview. I would drive a couple hours to look at some furnaces if I knew of a great place.

 

[3fordasho]

The heatmax with all the round vents seems kinda a pain in the neck for me to deal with. Running a trunk from the furnace down the length of the house and splitting off vents seems much better and I could run all the vent pipes inside my wood ibeam floor for a clean appearance, excepting the trunk which would hang below the joists and be perpendicular to them.

I don't get why everyone is so hung up on the Heatpro plenum - to me it's just a box they provide that happens to have 6" cut outs that don't have to be removed - why not just attach what ever shaped ducting you want? As long as you have the minimum 168 square inches of outlet area and set your plenum pressure to .2" what is the issue?

 

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

I don't get why everyone is so hung up on the Heatpro plenum - to me it's just a box they provide that happens to have 6" cut outs that don't have to be removed - why not just attach what ever shaped ducting you want? As long as you have the minimum 168 square inches of outlet area and set your plenum pressure to .2" what is the issue?

Well you do have a good point. It seems that whole plenum with the round ducts could be removed and replaced with any custom style.

 

[Highbeam]

Well you do have a good point. It seems that whole plenum with the round ducts could be removed and replaced with any custom style.

That is entirely possible, the manifold plenum just screws on. From the manual though, that would appear to void the warranty.

 

[WV_Wood_Chopper]

Does anyone here have a Kuuma 100 with a DHW coil and if so what does it look like and how have you liked it?

 

[motoguy]

Does anyone here have a Kuuma 100 with a DHW coil and if so what does it look like and how have you liked it?

Mine will be delivered tomorrow...I'm not looking for inexpensive/inoperative (but not leaking) 80-100gal water heaters for storage tank/tanks.

 

[DoubleB]

It seems that whole plenum with the round ducts could be removed and replaced with any custom style.

Yep, I think that's the crux of it. If SBI will honor a warranty with any custom plenum that has 168 sq inches, then the Heatpro is entirely on the table in my book. If SBI will only honor a warranty by using 6 of the 6" outlets, then it's not an appealing option. I'll let someone else run that experiment with their warranty, I already exercised mine.

By the way, I only said 168 sq in because that's what @3fordasho said; I don't remember that from the Heatpro manual but I trust that's somewhere in there.

 

[brenndatomu]

I only said 168 sq in because that's what @3fordasho said; I don't remember that from the Heatpro manual but I trust that's somewhere in there.

Probably based on their recommendation of minimum (6) 6" round ducts used, total square inches of 169.56" by my math...

 

[STIHLY DAN]

Does anyone here have a Kuuma 100 with a DHW coil and if so what does it look like and how have you liked it?

Its a series of bends of copper on the back of the fire box. Works well but it is meant as a helper not as a replacement of a heater.

 

[motoguy]

Its a series of bends of copper on the back of the fire box. Works well but it is meant as a helper not as a replacement of a heater.

I received my VF100 today. After a bit of time with furniture dollies, an engine hoist, 4 wheeler, some chains and snatch-straps, we managed to get it in the downstairs. I'm super excited to get it installed and fired up. To quote my dad (who helped me get it in ), "It's a lot smaller than that Clayton we used to have!" To hear him talk about how much wood they used to go through, I think he's curious to see our results.

That being said, I'm quite underwhelmed by the water loop. For a $300 accessory, I expected more. It's essentially a 16" square loop of 3/4" copper pipe. Here is the coil:



Relative size, compared to the furnace:



Installs like this, except inside the furnace:



Access panel, on side of furnace (it's hanging from these holes in the photo above):



Here's what the access panel looks like from the inside (photo taken through the fresh air intake hole):



The backside of the stove, where the water loop installs, is wide open space (with the exception of the flue stack). I think it would be easy to have a heating loop that's 4, 5 times the size of this one. That's more what i expected. I don't know if I'll get to it this year, but I suspect I'll be pulling the enclosure off, and installing my own water loop, fully utilizing the space at the rear of the furnace. There's a lot more space to utilize, and I see no reason not to do so.

I don't expect the water loop to replace a hot water heater, and that was never my intention. My plan was simply to have the loop feed a holding tank (80, 100 gal) to pre-heat water prior to the water heater. I don't know how effective a water loop of this size will be, but I feel strongly that it could be much more effective.

If you're wanting to pre-heat your water using your VF, I'd recommend skipping the optional water loop, and installing your own.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

An over night burn (from bed to morning) I get 80 gals of 120ish water. The problem with a more effective water heater is you cant control the heat. So say you have a house with 1 person and your preheat tank is 40 gallons, how long before the water gets to hot and blows of the relief valve. They (Kumma ) needed to find a middle ground. The price for that coil is pricey for what it is.

 

[motoguy]

An over night burn (from bed to morning) I get 80 gals of 120ish water. The problem with a more effective water heater is you cant control the heat. So say you have a house with 1 person and your preheat tank is 40 gallons, how long before the water gets to hot and blows of the relief valve. They (Kumma ) needed to find a middle ground. The price for that coil is pricey for what it is.

Yeah, I was thinking about that today. A larger coil will put a lot more heat into the water. That's great if you have enough mass to store the heat, or use it frequently enough to keep it from getting too hot. If not, though (say, a day long burn while you're not at home), it could cause problems. The stove can't "shut off" the heat to the water, so you run into the overpressure situation you mentioned. I can understand their concern, and how they need to protect themselves from some idiot blowing up his water storage tank. So, they build small coils, that don't put a lot of heat into the cooler, but does serve a purpose.

I guess my issue is more about the price charged for what you get. It's still $300 for a 16x16 copper loop, a panel cut in the sides, backing plate for the loop, and 4 studs welded to the firebox.

I know Daryl has an amazing customer service record, and I know he's been tweaking his design for decades. There's probably a very good reason it's sized the way it si. This is my first wood furnace, and hell, it's not even installed yet. I may hook it up and find out the water coil is -perfect-. I don't discount that possibility. The "kid opening his Christmas present" aspect just took a hit when I saw that loop, that's all.

 

[DaveH]

That being said, I'm quite underwhelmed by the water loop. For a $300 accessory, I expected more. It's essentially a 16" square loop of 3/4" copper pipe. Here is the coil:

I have the coil, for now. I have 3 people in the house, washer, dishwasher and showers always going but the coil gets my water hot enough that is blows off almost daily. The tempering tank people here recommend is probably a must, because that coil does heat up so much water.

I will be pulling the coil soon because I just bought a Stiebel Eltron Accelera 300. I think I can steal the radiant heat with the HP unit. I also have a "heat-helper" dryer stand that blows the air back into the basement. I was due for a new hot water tank anyway so I figured this was the best option for me. $300 is pricey, but worth the try for me. Probably most effective with more water use or larger tank.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

I have a ge hp water heater. I purchased a 80 gal electric used heater for 50 bucks and am using it as a tempering tank. Works awesome for me, especially helpful during power outages. For the little money a hp heater uses it may not be cost effective for the coil, but it does still save money. ROI is just a bit longer.