Looking to install new insert vs stove in odd sized fireplace - advice?

[JimNE]

Hi everyone! I'm new to stoves and inserts, and to Hearth.com as well. I am hoping some knowledgeable folks can help set us on the right path.

My wife and I bought a home, and we would like to install a wood insert or stove in our family room. We recently went to a store to look at the Pacific Energy Alderlea T5 insert, but their oversized surround was still too narrow for our 46 inch wide opening. Because of the size of the surround, he suggested the Hampton HI300 (with oversized surround) or the Enviro Boston. The owner/sales person thought an insert would work much better in our situation than a stove, due to the size of our hearth.

I know there are other quality brands out there, and I would like to consider all options before committing. I also want to make sure that we get the right sized stove/BTU's for our space. The family room is about 23.5' x 15.5' with approx 15 ft high ceilings. The adjacent dining room is 15.5' x 12'. I have included the blueprint for the first floor, in case that is useful (note: it's the family room, not living room).

Does anyone have an opinion regarding insert vs stove in our application? Any thoughts on brands and models we should consider? This is an important investment for us, and we're willing to invest in what we like (ie, no pre-determined budget).

Thanks for any input!

Jim

 

[begreen]

Welcome Jim. The Boston is a very nice quality insert and the Hampton is quite popular and a good heater too. The T5 could work, with custom-made side panel extensions. By the floorplan layout it looks like the insert will be heating the family room and kitchen exclusively. Is that the goal? If so a 2 cu ft insert will be fine. You'll need a ceiling fan to circulate the heat that will stratify at the ceiling peak.

If the goal is to heat the house, then the living room fireplace would be a better location. For total wood heating this looks like a 2 stove setup. How will you be running the insert? 24/7 or mostly nights and weekends? How is your wood supply? If you've been reading up here you'll find that this is almost as critical as the stove.

 

[USMC80]

How many square feet are you trying to heat with it?

 

[dafattkidd]

Hey Jim, welcome to the forum. I fully agree with BeGreen. What's the height of your fireplace in the family room? A front loading stove may work well there.

 

[begreen]

28.5". It looks like an insert would be the least complicated install. I am also checking on the surround fit for the Hearthstone Clydesdale here. It looks like this would cover the opening with its standard surround.

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hsclyde.htm)

 

[JimNE]

Thanks for all of the quick responses and questions... I'll do my best to answer all of the questions so far here...

I don't expect to be able to heat the house entirely with wood. Our heating system is an oil furnace with forced hot air for the whole house, but there are supplemental electric baseboards in the family room. I would be satisfied if we can heat/supplement the family room, the dining room, and possibly the kitchen, which are the most used parts of the house. We currently don't use the living room much, but someday we would consider adding a stove there as well. All in all, the family room, dining room, and kitchen equals approx 800 ft2. We are aware that the high ceilings in the family room pose a problem, and we are also going to be looking into getting ceiling fans installed.

As begreen said, the fireplace opening is 28.5" H x 46" W. I'll take a look at the Clydesdale; I'm not familiar with them...

Does anyone know if Jotul has an oversized surrounding that would fit? I couldn't find the info on their website...

 

[Grisu]

I agree with BeGreen that the living room fireplace may be a better option for whole house heating. Can you tell us more about your plans with the insert? Are you looking for an occasional burn, a full 24/7-schedule or something in between? How well is your house insulated and what is the square footage?

I am also wondering whether a rear-venting stove may not be a good option in your case. A few that may fit: Lopi Leyden, Jotul Oslo, Woodstock Fireview or Keystone. A stove does have the advantage that is does not require a blower to heat the house and usually comes cheaper. Here is an example from another forum member: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...an-24-in-depth-rear-vent.111523/#post-1479312

Last (but not least): Do you already have your wood supply? Any modern EPA stove absolutely requires well-seasoned wood with a moisture content below 20% to function properly. That is usually achieved by having it split and stacked with lots of sun and wind exposure for a minimum of 1 year, better 2 or 3 (especially for slow drying species like oak). It is rare that you find a firewood dealer that sells seasoned firewood. When ordering ask how long it has been split and stacked. If it is still in logs it is unseasoned. When the wood gets delivered, I suggest you test a few pieces by splitting them and checking the freshly exposed surface (the center of the split) with a moisture meter. If it is between 20% to 25% you can probably get by with it this winter. Above 25% you will need to season it another year. Reject the load or pay only the price for green wood and stack it in your backyard for next year. A cheap and easy moisture meter can be found here: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67143.html or in most hardware stores.

 

[begreen]

Any freestanding stove is going to need a hearth extension which is possible, but more work. If the stove is entirely in the fireplace it's going to need a blower. Given that this insert/stove will be strictly an area heater, I am more inclined to go with the dealer recommendations so far, they are good ones. Take a look at the Clydesdale for another option. It has a huge fireview.

This insert/stove should also have an insulated stainless liner and a damper-sealing block-off plate for optimum performance.

 

[Grisu]

Any freestanding stove is going to need a hearth extension which is possible, but more work. If the stove is entirely in the fireplace it's going to need a blower.

Does it? Why not just put a stoveboard in front of it similar to the setup in the link? Depending on the insert he may need to do that anyways if he does not get a flush-mount as he has only a 16" hearth depth.

I agree that a recessed stove would benefit from a blower but in case of a power outage a stove will do better than an insert. I just wanted to show the OP that there are more possibilities than what he has been told so far. I always think that people should know all available options before coming to an informed decision.

 

[JimNE]

Hi Grisu,

Good questions... I don't expect this to be a 24/7 heater, but I expect to use it more than occassionally. I'm likely to burn when I'm home in the late fall through early spring, and I work from home half of the time (I usually work in the family room). While the living room may do a better job of heating the upstairs (not on blueprints), it would not be able to heat the kitchen, dining room, and family rooms, which is were we spend most of our time. Currently, our thermostat for the whole house is in the living room, and with a insert or stove in the family room, it should still be able to regulate the heat for the rest of the first floor and upstairs.

The insulation situation is not great. In fact, we just had our home energy audit done yesterday. The family room is insulated, but currently the outside wall of the dining room is not. There are a few other rooms in the house without any insulation. We are planning to have a contractor insulate the deficient areas of the house. The family room has a lot of glass, including two large sliding glass doors, which are a little leaky despite efforts to install additional weatherstripping. Ultimately, the family room and dining room are pretty poorly insulated. The whole house is about 2500 ft2, but I am hoping the wood stove will at least supplement about 800 ft2 of it.

We live in a somewhat rural area and have a lot of trees on our property. I already have some split oak that is at least a few years old, and some new oak waiting for me to split. I am planning to build a woodshed to store split wood and allow it to season. Great thought on the moisture meter, and I appreciate those insights on buying wood. I expect that I would ultimately need to buy hardwood for burning (haven't identified source yet, but I think oak should be easily obtained here), but it would be nice to burn wood from our property after trees go down (unfortunately, most of the trees on the property are pine - not sure if I'd be able to safely burn it?).

Thanks for including the picture of the stove in a similar space. That type of setup is why I haven't eliminated the idea of a stove. The salesman thought with only a 16" deep hearth, too much of the stove would have to be stuffed back into the fireplace to make sense or be efficient. I'm definitely open to your thoughts in either direction. I will take a close look at the stoves that you mention. I wouldn't want to have to build the brick hearth out any further into the room, as it sounds like too much hassle. With our hardwood floors, would we need a solid hearth extender on the floor, or would a fireproof mat suffice/meet code?

Everyone's thoughts are appreciated!

 

[begreen]

The gating factor with a freestanding stove is going to be height. Some stove mfg make short leg kits which may help. The hearth pad extension should be permanent. A hearth rug is not.

If the oak is not split already, it likely is not going to work for firewood for this year and maybe not for the next either. Oak's dense grain takes a long time to dry out. Ash on the other hand dries out pretty quickly.

 

[Grisu]

Hi Grisu,

Good questions... I don't expect this to be a 24/7 heater, but I expect to use it more than occassionally. I'm likely to burn when I'm home in the late fall through early spring, and I work from home half of the time (I usually work in the family room). While the living room may do a better job of heating the upstairs (not on blueprints), it would not be able to heat the kitchen, dining room, and family rooms, which is were we spend most of our time. Currently, our thermostat for the whole house is in the living room, and with a insert or stove in the family room, it should still be able to regulate the heat for the rest of the first floor and upstairs.

The insulation situation is not great. In fact, we just had our home energy audit done yesterday. The family room is insulated, but currently the outside wall of the dining room is not. There are a few other rooms in the house without any insulation. We are planning to have a contractor insulate the deficient areas of the house. The family room has a lot of glass, including two large sliding glass doors, which are a little leaky despite efforts to install additional weatherstripping. Ultimately, the family room and dining room are pretty poorly insulated. The whole house is about 2500 ft2, but I am hoping the wood stove will at least supplement about 800 ft2 of it.

Since it sounds you would use it rather frequently including overnight burns you should probably look for a medium size insert/stove in the 2.0 cu ft firebox size range. Your insulation and high ceilings may make that also a requirement. Smaller inserts give you only burn times of 5 to 6 hours max. You could also look at catalytic inserts like the Blaze King Briarwood or the Kuma Ashwood. The Woodstock stoves I mentioned earlier are also catalytic. Catalytic stoves allow more even heat output so you are less likely to overheat the room if you have problems getting the heat distributed. May be helpful when it is not in the midst of winter. Their "disadvantage" is that they may require a new cat approx. every 5 years and they are a little bit less forgiving in the type of wood you burn (absolutely no treated wood or paper with bright colors; that will kill the cat). If you go the non-cat route, I have not heard a bad word about the Enviro Boston here. Btw. What size did the dealer recommend: the 1200 or 1700?

We live in a somewhat rural area and have a lot of trees on our property. I already have some split oak that is at least a few years old, and some new oak waiting for me to split. I am planning to build a woodshed to store split wood and allow it to season. Great thought on the moisture meter, and I appreciate those insights on buying wood. I expect that I would ultimately need to buy hardwood for burning (haven't identified source yet, but I think oak should be easily obtained here), but it would be nice to burn wood from our property after trees go down (unfortunately, most of the trees on the property are pine - not sure if I'd be able to safely burn it?).

Oak is one of the best firewoods but takes a really long time to season. At least 2 years better 3 in most areas. Be aware that the oak you will split in the coming months will be for the winter 16/17 so you will need to find dry wood for two more winters in between. Pine can be safely burned when it has been dried just as any other wood. The good thing is it will dry rather quickly, usually one summer. I would recommend a top cover for pine as it seems to soak in rain really well in my experience. Building a woodshed is a great idea but for drying the wood should be stacked in the open with lots of sun and wind exposure. Putting it on pallets or landscape timber is a good idea and I like top covering it. If you want to dry it quickly stack it in single rows and rather loosely. Once dry you can transfer the wood in the shed during the fall.

Thanks for including the picture of the stove in a similar space. That type of setup is why I haven't eliminated the idea of a stove. The salesman thought with only a 16" deep hearth, too much of the stove would have to be stuffed back into the fireplace to make sense or be efficient. I'm definitely open to your thoughts in either direction. I will take a close look at the stoves that you mention. I wouldn't want to have to build the brick hearth out any further into the room, as it sounds like too much hassle. With our hardwood floors, would we need a solid hearth extender on the floor, or would a fireproof mat suffice/meet code?

Everyone's thoughts are appreciated!

A stove stuffed back in the firebox will be at least as efficient as an insert especially if you add a blower. Put in a block-off plate as BG mentioned already that will help a lot. Since you have an exterior chimney I would also recommend an insulated liner. That will improve draft and give you less creosote. What hearth extension you will require will depend on the stove specifications and how picky your insurance company is. I put one of those in front of my hearth: http://www.amazon.com/HY-C-UL2832GT-1-Hy-C-Stove-Board/dp/B002UZOM2A We have a rubber mat underneath so it does not move but we can still take it away during the summer. You may have the same problem when getting an insert as your hearth is only 16" deep. Since most inserts will stick out a bit you will fall short of the required 16" clearance. If you get a stove that requires only ember protection underneath a simple stoveboard should work just fine.

 

[webby3650]

Are you limiting your search to Cast Iron Inserts? There are a lot of steel inserts out there that are great heaters, often cheaper than the ones mentioned and most all of them have oversized panels as an option.
The Lopi Freedom would be a good fit for you, and they have 8",10" and 12" panels, your choice.

If you must have a cast insert, then a simple solution is to have some heavy gauge angle metal made, painted black and installed in the opening to reduce the opening size.

The Hearthstone Clydesdale is a great looking unit! Here's one we did last year.

 

[JimNE]

My wife and I both like the looks of the cast iron better than the steel. We're actually on the way out the door this moment to go take a look at the Clydesdale! We're still discussing, but right now, I think we both like the look of an insert in the room better than a freestanding stove. We do acknowledge some of the advantages of the stoves, though. Will keep you posted! Thanks everyone for your help with this process!

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Hi Jim, that space is definitely screaming for an insert, you won't be disappointed, when you pick out the ones you like, my advice would be not to undersize it, I have a similar situation like you, non insulated room with many windows, I am only concerned of heating 500 sq ft. My medium insert does great with that. So keep doing your homework and speak to a lot of shops that sell stoves, you have high
Ceilings so a larger unit might be better for you. The brown enamel looks amazing, that would be something to check out... Good luck and let us know what you are thinking. My 3 choices were the Clydesdale, i300, and the montpelier, which after 1 burning season, I am quite happy with. Once you start burning, your gonna love it, you'll be lighting fires all the time...gl

 

[dafattkidd]

Although a freestanding stove has an advantage over inserts the advantages aren't tremendous. You will get great heat and efficiency out of an insert. Many of us heat our homes with great success. Having that raised hearth will really help with an insert. It improves the view of the fire and helps with loading the unit. The major advantage of an insert is the decreased footprint in the room. Good luck!

 

[JimNE]

Grisu, post: 1486115, member: 15236
If you go the non-cat route, I have not heard a bad word about the Enviro Boston here. Btw. What size did the dealer recommend: the 1200 or 1700?

The dealer had recommended the 1700.

Oak is one of the best firewoods but takes a really long time to season. At least 2 years better 3 in most areas. Be aware that the oak you will split in the coming months will be for the winter 16/17 so you will need to find dry wood for two more winters in between. Pine can be safely burned when it has been dried just as any other wood. The good thing is it will dry rather quickly, usually one summer. I would recommend a top cover for pine as it seems to soak in rain really well in my experience. Building a woodshed is a great idea but for drying the wood should be stacked in the open with lots of sun and wind exposure. Putting it on pallets or landscape timber is a good idea and I like top covering it. If you want to dry it quickly stack it in single rows and rather loosely. Once dry you can transfer the wood in the shed during the fall.

Thanks for this advice. I admit I hadn't put much thought into wood supply and seasoning yet, and you have definitely put this on my radar. I will follow your advice, including paying attention with a meter.

Since you have an exterior chimney I would also recommend an insulated liner. That will improve draft and give you less creosote. What hearth extension you will require will depend on the stove specifications and how picky your insurance company is. I put one of those in front of my hearth: http://www.amazon.com/HY-C-UL2832GT-1-Hy-C-Stove-Board/dp/B002UZOM2A We have a rubber mat underneath so it does not move but we can still take it away during the summer. You may have the same problem when getting an insert as your hearth is only 16" deep. Since most inserts will stick out a bit you will fall short of the required 16" clearance.

We have decided on the Clydesdale insert, but the liner and hearth extension are the next issues I need to figure out. The person we spoke with at the shop with the Clydesdale didn't know much about liners and he stated that they typically just use a standard 316 flexible stainless liner. He wasn't sure, but he thinks its the Ventinox flexible liner they buy in bulk. If we want something different, they said would be happy to use what we want (as long as it meets code).

We are going to need a hearth extension, as the stove requires 18" in front of the glass, and I think we may want the insert to extend into the room (maybe 6" or so?) rather than do a flush mount. Apparently the Clydesdale gives flexibility regarding how far it sticks out into the room. That would mean that we need at least 10" of hearth extension; we would probably do 12-16'". I was considering getting a nice slab of stone such as bluestone, but I have some research to do regarding R values, what's possible, and what meets code...

 

[JimNE]

Thanks Ram and Dafatkidd. Your comments are reassuring that we're moving in the right direction for us. Like I said above, we decided on the Clydesdale. We like the large viewing window, the large opening into the firebox, and I think the size of the insert will look proportional to the room. I like the fact that this will fit with their standard surround rather than an oversized surround, which I think looks better (better proportions of insert to surround).

Based on the brochure, I went to the store expecting to like the brown enamel the best. We were surprised that we ended up liking the blue-black enamel better, which is what we ordered. As I mentioned in another thread, we have tax-free weekend next weekend (which I found out from someone else's post), and the shop is offering a sale as an additional incentive. $300 off the plain black cast iron, $400 off of enamel.

As a side note, I just wanted to mention what a tremendous resource you all are, and your input has been extremely helpful. I feel that I am a more educated consumer because of this board and your responses. I wasn't even aware of the Clydesdale or the Hearthstone brand before Begreen first mentioned it. So everyone, thank you!

 

[dafattkidd]

I love the blue black! That will look great! And heat like a beast.

 

[begreen]

Congratulations Jim. The blue-black finish is my favorite as well. Good choice. Before proceeding with the hearth extension, contact Hearthstone or have your dealer do this. You have a nicely raised hearth. From the picture it looks like it is at least 12" off the floor. In another Hearthstone line (Homestead) they go into greater detail for floor protection. When that stove is on a hearth 9" high or more the floor protection drops from a very high R=2.5 to just ember protection. I can't see why that wouldn't also apply to your installation. If so, the bluestone extension would be fine without added protection.



Ventinox is a standard liner brand made by M&G Duravent and fine quality. Be sure they insulate the full chimney liner and include a damper-sealing block-off plate with the quote.

 

[JimNE]

Ventinox is a standard liner brand made by M&G Duravent and fine quality. Be sure they insulate the full chimney liner and include a damper-sealing block-off plate with the quote.

The shop also mentioned that they could use a Duravent Duraflex smooth walled liner if we preferred. Not sure how much more it would be, but is there any reason we would want to do this, or would it be a waste of money? They also said that they don't normally insulate the entire liner (usually just the top and bottom), but we could have it done if we want. It sounds like we're better off paying to have the whole length insulated?

contact Hearthstone or have your dealer do this. You have a nicely raised hearth. From the picture it looks like it is at least 12" off the floor. In another Hearthstone line (Homestead) they go into greater detail for floor protection. When that stove is on a hearth 9" high or more the floor protection drops from a very high R=2.5 to just ember protection. I can't see why that wouldn't also apply to your installation. If so, the bluestone extension would be fine without added protection.

That's a great idea. I'll call them on Monday and see what they say.

 

[begreen]

They also said that they don't normally insulate the entire liner (usually just the top and bottom)

This is typical. They are trying to provide you a good value with a competitive quote. It costs more to do a better job, but remember this is semi-permanent infrastructure. Over the life of the stove the price difference is small, but the benefits can be large.

On an exterior chimney you want it entirely insulated. It will provide better performance, a cleaner flue, and better safety. If you're looking for the best liner and you have a large, straight shot down the chimney, go with insulated, rigid stainless. It's much heavier gauge and totally smooth wall. Done right it will last a lifetime.

In between flex liner and rigid is a DuraVent product called DuraLiner. It's preinsulated, easier to install and about 3 times as thick walled as the DuraFlex. This is a premium product, but worth it IMO, especially for tight installs. Member Hogwildz has this for his liner.

(broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/ProductCategory.aspx?c=13)

 

[JimNE]

This is typical. They are trying to provide you a good value with a competitive quote. It costs more to do a better job, but remember this is semi-permanent infrastructure. Over the life of the stove the price difference is small, but the benefits can be large.

On an exterior chimney you want it entirely insulated. It will provide better performance, a cleaner flue, and better safety. If you're looking for the best liner and you have a large, straight shot down the chimney, go with insulated, rigid stainless. It's much heavier gauge and totally smooth wall. Done right it will last a lifetime.

In between flex liner and rigid is a DuraVent product called DuraLiner. It's preinsulated, easier to install and about 3 times as thick walled as the DuraFlex. This is a premium product, but worth it IMO, especially for tight installs. Member Hogwildz has this for his liner.

(broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/ProductCategory.aspx?c=13)

I'll get some quotes for the options you mentioned this week. Thanks!

 

[Grisu]

Congratulations on your purchase. I am sure you will be happy. A few more points to consider if you want to have the best possible job done. The stove shop will probably say that anyway but get the chimney cleaned before the install and check also out if it is still sound. Check also the size of the flue as the insulated liner will need more room than the standard 6-inch flex liner the shop uses normally. Take also a look at the damper if it needs to be cut out to allow the liner to pass through. For the block-off plate see here:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/poor-mans-block-off-plate-ii.73018/ and here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/
It is rare that a stove shop offers those. You may need to make one yourself and have them install it when they put the insert in. Since your fireplace is at an outside wall you may also benefit from putting Roxul around the back and the sides such as here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-i2400-wood-insert.102314/page-2#post-1349256
It depends, of course, how much clearance you have around the insert. Roxul can be found at Lowe's. If the installer wants to use fiberglass get some Roxul yourself and have them use it instead. It is the superior product for high temp applications. Good luck finding a good solution for the hearth extension and in getting your wood seasoned.

P.S. Contact also your insurance company that you will be putting an insert in for supplemental heat. It may not make a difference in your premiums but in case something happens they will not be able to say they did not know about the woodstove.

 

[JimNE]

From the picture it looks like it is at least 12" off the floor. In another Hearthstone line (Homestead) they go into greater detail for floor protection. When that stove is on a hearth 9" high or more the floor protection drops from a very high R=2.5 to just ember protection. I can't see why that wouldn't also apply to your installation. If so, the bluestone extension would be fine without added protection.

I just got off the phone with an engineer from Hearthstone (Jim). He said that they were able to make that drop in R value because they had tested it, but they can not recommend this drop with the Clydesdale because it has not been tested and verified. They said that we can not use the testing from a different stove and apply it to our situation. I am going to have to find a solution to meet the R value of 1.

Also, our stove shop is closed on Monday, so I will get quotes for various liner options tomorrow...