Lots of questions heading in...

[jeff d]

We've been investigating wood burning inserts for our fireplace for about a month and I've still got questions without answers and this looks like a good place for answers. First the background, we have a fireplace with a opening roughly 41w x 29.5h, the chimney is about 26' from floor of firebox (done counting bricks...). This is a 30x20 room and this won't be our primary heat source, the heat is nice but we want a good view of the fire. We're looking non-catalytic and have to have large glass areas, we love to watch the fire... Our options so far include: Jotul Rockland CF (or Kennebec CF), Quadfire Voyageur (or Grand see below), Osburn Matrix, PE Neo 2.5 (but smallest of the group), the Nepoleon Oakdale in both traditional or contemporary also look good. All these have been mocked in photoshop and some look better than others. I know everyone has their preferences, but if there's any negatives to any of these I'd love to know. I've also got a few questions...

Several of the surrounds are very close to covering the opening, but fall a little short. The Rockland and Voyageur both would have a 1/2" gap on each side, the matrix would have a gap across the top. I know some folks like a stove in a fireplace, and some have complained a surround lowers ambient heat output. If we don't car about the small gaps, is it better or worse to run an insert with an opening around the brick? Will it affect the blower's performance? Looks like the Voyageur Grand is the same box as the Voyageur with a larger surround, and I like the look of the Rockland better without the extra flat surround behind it.

What is a block off plate used to block off? Is it just to stop heat from escaping or air from coming in?

What is the significance of an insulated vent up the chimney? I don't understand why something which is opened on one end needs insulation around it, and the chimney is outside. We don't valve the top of the chimney, right? (I have the same question about insulated bathroom vents that vent directly outdoors) I know the cooktop downdraft has a dual trap at the end which acts as a dead space at the end.

After reading comments here about the fire's air consumption and negative pressure I started asking dealers about outside air vents. I've been told inserts don't consume much air and that there's no real need. I was surprised by PE's solution for the Neo is to just seal it to the ash vent and seal off the surround. I think I saw that quadra-fire offers a vent, and others here have just made their own. This house was built in 1989 and is not sealed. Dealer said Jotul doesn't have/need a kit. Our HVAC has an outside air vent that's used in the summer, is there any reason why I wouldn't want outside air feeding the stove?

What prevents air from coming in through the chimney vent? When the HVAC is running it draws a lot of air, and I suspect our heating bills have not gone down with this energy star system because we're now pulling in more air than with the previous system. The cooktop downdraft also has a good draw. I don't see why theses won't pulling air in through the insert. Is there some sort of valve/damper that will be a good seal?

That's a lot of questions, so I'll stop there for now.

 

[armanidog]

Do I need chimney liner insulation?
This is a common question you might be asking yourself when you are getting ready to purchase a stainless steel chimney liner. It is always a good idea to insulate a stainless steel chimney liner. The insulation will enable the flue to heat up more quickly and to a higher temperature. This helps reduce the risk of having an inadequate draft. In addition, while the flue gasses stay hot, less creosote will form and less fuel will be wasted.

How old is your house? Newer houses tend to have less air coming through cracks, etc. If it is a recently built house I would consider an outside air vent.

Air may try to come down the flue but usually it ha to go through the insert/stove so the resistance for air passage is high. Do you ever smell the chimney in the summer when the AC is drawing in air?

 

[NoobTube]

See my answers below in Bold.

We've been investigating wood burning inserts for our fireplace for about a month and I've still got questions without answers and this looks like a good place for answers. First the background, we have a fireplace with a opening roughly 41w x 29.5h, the chimney is about 26' from floor of firebox (done counting bricks...). This is a 30x20 room and this won't be our primary heat source, the heat is nice but we want a good view of the fire. We're looking non-catalytic and have to have large glass areas, we love to watch the fire... Our options so far include: Jotul Rockland CF (or Kennebec CF), Quadfire Voyageur (or Grand see below), Osburn Matrix, PE Neo 2.5 (but smallest of the group), the Nepoleon Oakdale in both traditional or contemporary also look good. All these have been mocked in photoshop and some look better than others. I know everyone has their preferences, but if there's any negatives to any of these I'd love to know. I've also got a few questions...

Sounds like you are looking into flush face inserts. Are youl ooking at just having supplemental heat or replace your current heat source? Is the reason you are looking at a flush face because one of you doesnt like the "look" of one that protrudes out a bit? The Jotul is a nice stove, but I've heard (and you can read here) that many feel it doesnt quite check all the boxes when it comes to throwing off heat. Most flush faces can't compare to free standers or anythign that has a protruding firebox.

Several of the surrounds are very close to covering the opening, but fall a little short. The Rockland and Voyageur both would have a 1/2" gap on each side, the matrix would have a gap across the top. I know some folks like a stove in a fireplace, and some have complained a surround lowers ambient heat output. If we don't car about the small gaps, is it better or worse to run an insert with an opening around the brick? Will it affect the blower's performance? Looks like the Voyageur Grand is the same box as the Voyageur with a larger surround, and I like the look of the Rockland better without the extra flat surround behind it.

I know that Osburn makes an extended sized surround to cover these. It is just a nominal cost increase.

What is a block off plate used to block off? We have a flue-vent and expect that will be cut and sealed with the vent. Is that used for the previous ash dump vent?

Block-off plates have several uses, but most importantly they are used to seal any potential flue draft. It helps keep it more insulated. In my case, I have vermiculite dumped in and Roxul as a block off section to stop the vermiculite from pouring out. After this season, I'm making a block off plate as additional insurance.

What is the significance of an insulated vent up the chimney? I don't understand why something which is opened on one end needs insulation around it, and the chimney is outside. We don't valve the top of the chimney, right? (I have the same question about insulated bathroom vents that vent directly outdoors) I know the cooktop downdraft has a dual trap at the end which acts as a dead space at the end.

The difference and importance is that all other appliances are not expelling gas that has the potential to form creosote and are not operating with gas temperatures several hundred degrees hotter than boiling point. Insulated liners or using vermiculite to surround a SS flue is not just for safety, it will also improve the drafting, and performance of your fireplace. This is pretty much a non-negotiable area. Almost everyone here feels that way. You will need to get a 6" for the stoves you are looking at.

After reading comments here about the fire's air consumption and negative pressure I started asking dealers about outside air vents. I've been told inserts don't consume much air and that there's no real need. I was surprised by PE's solution for the Neo is to just seal it to the ash vent and seal off the surround. I think I saw that quadra-fire offers a vent, and others here have just made their own. This house was built in 1989 and is not sealed. Dealer said Jotul doesn't have/need a kit. Our HVAC has an outside air vent that's used in the summer, is there any reason why I wouldn't want outside air feeding the stove?

In my opinion, an outside air kit for you is likely unnessesarry. I have a home built in 83 and its fine. No issues with draft or negative air pressure.

What prevents air from coming in through the chimney vent? When the HVAC is running it draws a lot of air, and I suspect our heating bills have not gone down with this energy star system because we're now pulling in more air than with the previous system. The cooktop downdraft also has a good draw. I don't see why theses won't pulling air in through the insert. Is there some sort of valve/damper that will be a good seal?

By nature of a stove, its sealed by the door and seal. The amount of air that is being sucked up it is minimal by the damper control. I would not worry.

That's a lot of questions, so I'll stop there for now.

 

[jatoxico]

If we don't car about the small gaps, is it better or worse to run an insert with an opening around the brick? Will it affect the blower's performance?

The surround is purely decorative and has no effect on blower performance. Running w/o the surround can actually let some heat that gets trapped behind it out. I intentionally have my Rockland set about an inch off the brick for this reason.

What is a block off plate used to block off? We have a flue-vent and expect that will be cut and sealed with the vent. Is that used for the previous ash dump vent?

The block-off makes a seal around the liner and the old flue, which will be removed when the liner goes in. This will keep heat from the insert from going up the chimney (between the new liner and old masonry/clay tile). Block offs improve heating ability of installed units quite a bit.

What is the significance of an insulated vent up the chimney?

Insulated liners keep flue gases hotter longer reducing creosote formation. This has the added effect of allowing you to run the the unit with the air turned down low while still running clean. Another major benefit is that an insulated assures you meet all safety codes related to flue clearances.

After reading comments here about the fire's air consumption and negative pressure I started asking dealers about outside air vents. I've been told inserts don't consume much air and that there's no real need.

I tend to agree with the dealer here. Unless your situation is unusual little air will move in or out of the stove when its not running.

Other comments; if you do not need to have a flush insert try to get one that extends onto the hearth at least a little. It will heat better and will not be so dependent on blower fans. In order of priority you may not have heat as high on your list right now as other considerations but once its installed and you start to experience the comfort and savings you may adjust that somewhat.

 

[jeff d]

Thanks all, comments all make sense, I have responses below...

How old is your house? Newer houses tend to have less air coming through cracks, etc. If it is a recently built house I would consider an outside air vent.

Air may try to come down the flue but usually it ha to go through the insert/stove so the resistance for air passage is high. Do you ever smell the chimney in the summer when the AC is drawing in air?

House is 1989 and I wouldn't say it's tight but I haven't tested it and would love to check the house under negative pressure.
We don't smell the chimney in the summer, but the flue is spotless. I'm not sure I'd smell anything if my head was in there.

Sounds like you are looking into flush face inserts. Are youl ooking at just having supplemental heat or replace your current heat source? Is the reason you are looking at a flush face because one of you doesnt like the "look" of one that protrudes out a bit? The Jotul is a nice stove, but I've heard (and you can read here) that many feel it doesnt quite check all the boxes when it comes to throwing off heat. Most flush faces can't compare to free standers or anythign that has a protruding firebox.

Correct. As a result, more visual than functional, and that's not really what I'd like. I do like the stove extending onto the hearth and understand that's more heat. Which is also why the surround sizing is more important if there's radiant heat we're trapping behind the surround, that wouldn't be idea.

The surround is purely decorative and has no effect on blower performance. Running w/o the surround can actually let some heat that gets trapped behind it out. I intentionally have my Rockland set about an inch off the brick for this reason.

I guess this will come down to a question of appearance vs function again. The 1" offset gives you a lot more heat? I've heard the Jotul are pretty realistic in their heating specs. We got 3000 sf, but aren't expecting to heat that with any of these, except the Voyageur says it can get close to that area.

Insulated liners keep flue gases hotter longer reducing creosote formation. This has the added effect of allowing you to run the the unit with the air turned down low while still running clean. Another major benefit is that an insulated assures you meet all safety codes related to flue clearances.

Gotcha, makes sense.

Other comments; if you do not need to have a flush insert try to get one that extends onto the hearth at least a little. It will heat better and will not be so dependent on blower fans. In order of priority you may not have heat as high on your list right now as other considerations but once its installed and you start to experience the comfort and savings you may adjust that somewhat.

Yeah I like the stove aspect a lot just visually not the same. I'm only half of the voting pool. We also only have one fireplace, so not like we can move this in a year if we decide a stove insert would work better...

 

[jatoxico]

I guess this will come down to a question of appearance vs function again. The 1" offset gives you a lot more heat? I've heard the Jotul are pretty realistic in their heating specs. We got 3000 sf, but aren't expecting to heat that with any of these, except the Voyageur says it can get close to that area.

Now that I've insulated the smoke shelf etc and added a block plate the Jotul 550 does a pretty good job heating most of my house which is about same square ft as you. It doesn't fully get into the back upstairs bedrooms but that's an airflow thing and not something I even try to fix. I get some more heat by leaving the surround off the brick, how much is tough to say (remember there's a balance to be struck between stripping heat off the stove for heat and over-cooling flue gases making creosote).

Whatever you get there's no reason to think you can't put a nice dent in your heat bill and you'll most likely find you keep the house much warmer than you ever would using whatever central heating system you have. Once the other half experiences that benefit some of those aesthetic concerns that seem so important now are put into a different perspective, at least somewhat.

Not that you asked but since its on your list ,the downsides to the 550 IMO are these; the firebox dimensions make it essentially a pure East West loading stove that is tough to fill completely. There's a lot that could be said about this but essentially it means that burn times are not great and realistically achieving overnight burn is pretty tough. Without the fans you get little heat so if you have power outages you need backup power (I have battery back-up).

The pros are; Built very well, the baffles, burn tubes, fire bricks, fans are all in near perfect condition after >6 yrs. Good view of fire.

 

[NoobTube]

There are only a few stoves that are going to be able to throw off heat for 3K sqft house. None of which are flush faced inserts. Sounds like you and I were in the same boat when deciding. My wife wanted to spend nearly $1K more for a flush face stove. I wanted it for heat supplementation, she wanted looks. We met in the middle. I could have probably gotten a BK Princess and she would have hated me. We could have had the Jotul Rockland, and I would have felt a bit unsatisfied regarding heat output.

 

[jetsam]

I have the Princess Insert, which has been heating 2300SF by itself for a couple years now. It is a little undersized for this job in cold weather (I have to run pretty hot to keep up), but it manages.

You've got a bigger house in a warmer place, so you might wind up with vaguely similar results.

If I was going to try to heat a 3000 SF house with one wood stove, I would consider getting rid of the fireplace and putting in a hearth pad with a freestanding stove. This gives you better performance than an insert (and much better performance than a flush insert), plus you can choose from some much larger stoves.

Unless your insulation is pretty good and your cold nights aren't that cold, I wouldn't consider a flush insert for a heater for a big house.

 

[jeff d]

Now that I've insulated the smoke shelf etc and added a block plate the Jotul 550 does a pretty good job heating most of my house which is about same square ft as you. It doesn't fully get into the back upstairs bedrooms but that's an airflow thing and not something I even try to fix. I get some more heat by leaving the surround off the brick, how much is tough to say (remember there's a balance to be struck between stripping heat off the stove for heat and over-cooling flue gases making creosote).

The pros are; Built very well, the baffles, burn tubes, fire bricks, fans are all in near perfect condition after >6 yrs. Good view of fire.

Smoke shelf?!?! I got a lot to learn. It sounds like you get good performance from that stove. If we can heat the house with the insert we'll be happy, but we are a fire loving family so there's much to gain even if this lacks in heat. I'm also kind of concerned about it heating us out, we get cold but nothing like where I'm from in MA.

There are only a few stoves that are going to be able to throw off heat for 3K sqft house. None of which are flush faced inserts. Sounds like you and I were in the same boat when deciding. My wife wanted to spend nearly $1K more for a flush face stove. I wanted it for heat supplementation, she wanted looks. We met in the middle. I could have probably gotten a BK Princess and she would have hated me. We could have had the Jotul Rockland, and I would have felt a bit unsatisfied regarding heat output.

Sounds familiar, tonight our 12 year old told me she could convince her mother to go with the stove if needed even though her choice (atheistic) is the quad voyageur... but she says the flames are too crazy. kids... =)

I have the Princess Insert, which has been heating 2300SF by itself for a couple years now. It is a little undersized for this job in cold weather (I have to run pretty hot to keep up), but it manages.

You've got a bigger house in a warmer place, so you might wind up with vaguely similar results.

If I was going to try to heat a 3000 SF house with one wood stove, I would consider getting rid of the fireplace and putting in a hearth pad with a freestanding stove. This gives you better performance than an insert (and much better performance than a flush insert), plus you can choose from some much larger stoves.

Unless your insulation is pretty good and your cold nights aren't that cold, I wouldn't consider a flush insert for a heater for a big house.

Silly as it sounds, heat is number 2 on the list of importance... a non-flush stove gets an instant veto, but she did sway a little after the last trip to a dealer. But it's just not a look she likes. I love the look, feel, and warming things on the top. I get they aren't a "modern" look, but the house is more country. We're avoiding all catalytic stove, need something nearly as simple as an open fire. She works out of the house and not "mechanical" so putting wood on the fire is not only something she's not comfortable with, but scares her to death. She won't light the gas grill, and we're getting a new cooktop which will be gas! Her choice, go figure. I have no idea how that makes sense but that's where we're at. =)

 

[jetsam]

If everything that's not a flush stove is vetoed, and it can't have a cat because that's too complex, your only option is really a fireplace (tube stoves being even more complex than cat stoves).

If that's the case, just let go of the idea that you will be doing any heating, and it will be fine. Lots of people have fireplaces for cosmetic reasons.

If you do want to make heat, the simplest-to-use, safest (in terms of automatically preventing overfires) kind of stove you can get IS catalytic. Blaze Kings have a bypass lever and a thermostat- that's it.

If you want less controls than that, you will need a pre-EPA smoke dragon, and... Well, let's just say that even the folks who think the EPA exists to try to steal their guns and dental fillings have EPA stoves, because the new stoves are that much better. Less technology does not translate to being easier or safer to use.

More complex is a tube stove, which usually has two air controls and needs a comparatively large amount of babysitting to get going. My wife's complete reload procedure is, 'At your convenience, open bypass for a couple minutes, open door, add wood, close door, close bypass, have a nice day'. Ask a tube stove owner how that would work out on their stove.

If you want to cook stuff on it, definitely consider a freestanding stove instead of an insert.

 

[Woody Stover]

we want a good view of the fire. We're looking non-catalytic and have to have large glass areas, we love to watch the fire

can't have a cat because that's too complex

No, they want more flame show.
@jeff d, another brand of inserts that get mentioned is Enviro...