Montpelier Wood Stove Insert not drafting well

[billme888]

I witnessed the installer unintentionally crimp the 6" flexible flue liner with a crow bar during a a difficult installation...(trying to get the liner aligned with the top of the stove.) I went outside to do something and when I came back in, it had been wrapped in what looked like a thick aluminum foil, and he considered the installation finished. When he conducted the test fire, it dumped smoke heavily into the living room out from the top of the stove when the door was opened. Tempers flared to make a long story short. He came back a week later to work on it cold...and it still leaks a lot of smoke and barely has any draw at all. All he did was tug at the liner from the top of the chimney (it's a full liner) and do a match test...small test fire. He then said it's the stove and wants to give me a refund, and out of the contract altogether, but I want to know if anyone knows of a Montpelier Wood Insert that wouldn't draw properly and been unable to ever get working properly? I had a cultured stone fireplace built to fit the Montpelier so I'd have to hire a mason again to add or cut out the cultured stone to make another insert fit, obviously from a different contractor Any thoughts would be appreciated. If I could find a way to talk to Vermont Castings tech support that would be great too, but I can't find a way to contact them, if they even exist. Thank you..

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

vc is now owned by monessen
Customer Svc. # - 800-525-1898
You can obtain most manuals on the website, otherwise call the manual hotline: 800-525-1898 ext.2500
Use 800 525-1898 ext 7504 for vermont tech 10-21-2008 dg

heres from my contact...but i dont handle vc, so its not too current, if i can remember i'll post the new contact when i get back into the office sat am...

as for the draft, too many variables at play to blame iether the stove or the liner yet. some inteligent review is needed.

Draft= Thenatural tendency ofhotair to rise.Yourstovepipemusthavedraf(to pulltheexhaustoutof.your stove)foryourstovto
operate.Awoodstoves'performance varies
dramatically depending on the power of the draft in the chimney.
Draft is caused by the warmer· air rising out of your home through the chimney pipe penetrating the highest ceiling in your home. The lower the penetration in the "shell" of your living space is the lower the draft will be.
Some chimneys are called "non-self starting" or "backdrafting" due to the pipe penetrating the shell so low. These can only be started by "cracking" open a window or door near the stove or by warming the pipe with small kindling fires er a hair dryer or a propane torch. In some cases only·a supplemental draft fan will establish adequate draft. Test your draft before lighting the fire by lighting a match at the partially opened door of the stove and see if air is going up the chimney or down into the room.
other things that can cause low draft are open vents or leaky construction in the upstairs such as whole house fans, skylights;
.
recessed lights and fixtures ,or leaky furnace duct systems. Seal them all and test with a lit cigarette or incense to se~ if they are leaking air. Some people remove the screens on their chimney caps {although codes require them on a woodstoves}
In planning your chimney location, make every effort to penetrate the shell at the highest ceiling for the best draft. Avoid elbows in the flu pipe or at least reduce the angle on them.
Direct vent gas or pellet stoves need no draft and can be used successfully without any vertical vent. For more information on draft or help in solving your draft problems call us at 1877-265-8618. or pm me
dave

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

i have a multi page pdf about draft solutions cause and effect. pm me and i'll email it to ya!

 

[madrone]

I'd be curious to know how it's the stove's fault. Did he explain how? As wood heat says, draft can mean a lot of things. It's pretty warm and wet in the PNW right now, which could be enough to prevent good draft. Smoke out of the top of the stove doesn't sound too good though...

 

[begreen]

How tall is the flue/liner on this stove? What floor of the house is the stove installed in? Basement, 1st, 2nd?

FWIW, testing a stove in our current nice weather is going to be a little tougher. Indoor temps = outdoor temps, which doesn't promote good draft.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

here's a couple of tests. the pdf i emailed you covers this...

if anyone else wants a very handy draft handout for customers, or personal use, just email or pm me....

prime your draft by placing newspaper on top of the baffle, or as high up in the stove as possible, then light it and let it burn berore lighting your kindling.
the flush of hot air up the stack may overcome stack effect in your home

crack a door or window near the stove during start up to break any potential negative pressure in your home

be sure draft fans, range hoods, etc aren't leaking air from the home compeeting with insert

check primary air inlet for obstructions

check baffle position, an out of place baffle board or blanket can kill draft really quik

email me the results if i dont respond here
dave
woodheatstoves.com

 

[billme888]

Be Green...the insert is on the second floor of a split level home....I'd estimate 23' from the top of the stove to the top of the flue liner/top of chimney. I also had another wood insert installed at the same time..... a Hampton HI300.... installed on the first floor (directly underneath the Montpelier) sharing the same chimney but with its own full-length liner that's drawing fine....I'd guess the liner on the first floor is maybe 35' or so. But the install on the Hampton went easily whereas the install on the upstairs Montpelier took several hours because they couldn't get the liner and the stove top to line up, angles were off...Then, because he was using a bar to tug at it, I saw the liner get crimped so it was now out-of-round. I had to leave for a while and never saw how they overcame this non-aligning and I suspect they gave up trying to get the true alignment and just wrapped it with this aluminum foil looking fix and declared it good to go. This leads me to think the connection at the top of the insert is not as air tight as it would have been if it hadn't been crimped....thinking that may be the cause of the poor draft or at least a contributing factor? Is this a big deal? (how tightly it's connected to the liner at the stove top?)

Dave... I did do the priming you're referring to...heated it up with newspaper well, then only used a lot of dry kindling for about 25 min...fire got medium hot, fan came on..(noisy sucker by the way).... But even after 25 min of a hot fire, it still dumped smoke out the top of the door when I slowly opened it to put more wood on. Conditions were it was in the daytime, mid-70s, windows all opened in the house...but shouldn't the hot 25 min fire I'd had be enough to heat the system to not dump smoke...? Or is this possibly the fault of the temperatures being the same, inside and out? Should I try a fire late at night to see if it drafts better? only gets down to the upper 50s here at night right now.

Madrone...as far as the limited visibility I have to see the connection at the top of the stove, I have to admit I do not see smoke, but I can't see far up at all, so I can't know for sure if smoke is coming out just above the connection area.

 

[summit]

try pulling out the baffle and seeing in you get the same result w/ your paper/kindling fire... without the fiberboard in there, the smoke has a straight shot up the pipe. if it drafts well w/ out the baffle in place, it could be the baffle is misaligned. if it keeps smoking back, then its the chimney.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

maybe he did kack up your liner...? take off the foils and blanket from flue connector and send me pics

these things are hard tp tell over a computer monitor.

 

[billme888]

Wow, I did pull off the baffle/surround and I can see it's only halfway connected..It's in the same condition it was before, it's misaligned just as I'd witnessed earlier. Part of the liner's inside the stove, the other half is not. It gaps up to almost an inch before it narrows back down. I need someone to hold a flashlight on it while I try to take a picture, the flash on the camera's not doing the job. Now I know why he was in such a rush to get it pulled out yesterday after doing the match test which didn't draft well either. Evidence of this work will make him look bad if tech support had to be called in.

Trying to be fair about this whole mess, I want to ask you installers something. Does it happen when a connection just isn't possible? It doesn't excuse this deception but I just want to understand from his perspective. Thanks guys...

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a little investigation is in order. With 23' of liner on the insert, it should be drawing better. I would remove the front shroud and also the baffle as suggested. That will allow you to inspect and get in there with a hand mirror and good flashlight. Try to look up the flue from the inside using the mirror. Then shine the light towards the flue collar on the top outside of the stove. If you are seeing big gaps (light leaks), that is at least part of the problem. Then try to shine the light up the interior of the flue and see if there are big light leaks visible on the exterior flue collar. Then using the light up the flue, try to use the hand mirror to inspect the liner from the inside to see if it is badly dented.

If you find major gaps at the flue collar they could be a cause of poor draft. If you find both conditions, air leaks and a dented liner, then that is the likely cause of the problem. If they tore the liner and taped over the tear, it needs to be properly fixed. Metal tape is not a proper fix.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

sorry, the guy sounds like a jacka**
not only does code require the liner be positively connected, your performance can be diminished by diluting draft

soundls like he needed on offset adapter or more flexible flex, or tight bend adjustible ridgid elbow at the bottom of flex run.
btw, any idea why he used flex all the way up? it is more expensive than ridgid typically, and ridgid is just better ime
we use flex only to get thru the throat/damper/skokeshelf area

email me pics, i can make recomendations

sounds like the unit was too tight of a fit for him to connect it properley, who measured the fp prior to purchase/ install> you? or did they come look at it first?

depth of lentil and flue collar depth are key elements often overlooked. its not just hieght- width-depth....

 

[billme888]

yes it's a tight fit, which I'm sure is to blame for the work. The contractor came out and placed an exact mark on the old fireplace brick that he could live with. The mason came in and built a new cultured stone fireplace and gave the contractor even more room than he asked for, maybe a half inch more...but it's still tight. I'll take a picture of it and post...The mason could have worked with anything the contractor wanted so the blame is with the measurement provided to the mason. If there's no room to make this work (and this is where I need one of you installer's opinion), then I would have to hire the mason again to lower the hearth, but that will mess up the stone work he's already done so I'd like to avoid that scenario. Let me see if I can get the pics posted...OK..well the pics I took are about 3 mb so I have to figure out how to reduced their size...not my thing...so maybe I can't show you what's going on...

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

email them to me, i will re-size and post
big files are fine, i have T1 service

edit, i am a horrible speller, sorry guys!

 

[billme888]

thanks dave..they'll be coming from my AOL/AIM email acct...on their way

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

more in a minute

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

next

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

lastly

oops i sould have put them all in one post, duh

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

clearly not connected properly
call they guy back out to do it right, or hire someone else

 

[summit]

guy probaby did not know what he was doing. he must have tried to snake the pipe down onto the outlet with the stoe already in place. that insert has a unique install system; first the outlet is connected to the inside of the stove by a few bolts. the nuts are inside the top of the firebox. you remove the baffle, take off the nuts, and then take the flue collar off. with the insert NOT INSIDE the fireplace, you connect the liner to the outlet. The outlet has a handy handle/brush guard in the middle. push the outlet and liner back up towards the fp damper area, and roll the insert in (yes roll... it has wheels on it). then reach up thru the stove's firebox, grab the handy handle on the flue collar, and pull the collar and pipe back into place. reattch the nuts, and reinstall the baffle. tada! done! no prybar needed!

 

[billme888]

His guys were here yesterday to do the match test with just a couple tiny pieces of wood to see how it drafted...it didn't draft at all..and now I know why. I filmed the process with my video camera. The guy doing the match test got mad I was filming the smoke that was coming out and called the contractor and he called back saying I couldn't film them....But his argument all along is that I'm being unreasonable and I should expect smoke....so how would I prove that it was indeed smoking without evidence and to prove I wasn't being unreasonable? He then said it was within his legal right to have the stove yanked out right now since I was being unreasonable... I said, like hell you are... I told his guys they weren't taking it out of my house.. and stood up.. He said he had to do what his boss told him...I'd already paid a $4,500 deposit with the remaining $1,800 I owed to be paid when the Montpelier was working right. The $6,300 was for the two stoves installed...the other one, the Hampton working fine downstairs. Cops were called, both by the contractor saying I was holding his property, and by my girlfriend who was trying to not let things get physical....and she has a pacemaker...Two police cars are now in front of my house..neighbors wondering what kind of neighbor I am...lol....cops told them to just leave...the dispatcher told us that's where small claims comes into effect..... OK..that's where we are...what a life.... So...should I hire someone else to look it over, or would that mess up my chances in court?...the warranty?... Confused and tired....Any help appreciated, legally or otherwise...

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

guy probaby did not know what he was doing. he must have tried to snake the pipe down onto the outlet with the stoe already in place. that insert has a unique install system; first the outlet is connected to the inside of the stove by a few bolts. the nuts are inside the top of the firebox. you remove the baffle, take off the nuts, and then take the flue collar off. with the insert NOT INSIDE the fireplace, you connect the liner to the outlet. The outlet has a handy handle/brush guard in the middle. push the outlet and liner back up towards the fp damper area, and roll the insert in (yes roll... it has wheels on it). then reach up thru the stove's firebox, grab the handy handle on the flue collar, and pull the collar and pipe back into place. reattch the nuts, and reinstall the baffle. tada! done! no prybar needed!

great info! i am not familar with this line, nice feature

so he sould remove and re-install, it has wheels, shouldn't be too bad

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

once the stove is in your home he will need a mechanics lien to get it out. he cant tresspass on your land, even if you owed big $ on the bill, you have RIGHTS
tell him he will be tresspassing if he shows up to do anything other than fix his botched install
ask him to come back with the sherriffs if he wants it back
have an attorney draft him a letter

 

[madrone]

Wow. I'm having a hard time understanding why he wouldn't just fix it. Now he's opened up a whole new mess. Sorry you have to deal with this.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

maybe you need to tell him about the removable flue collar assembly
educate the guy