My Install Plan for a Froling S30

[chew72]

Hello all It's been ages since I've been on here but I'm currently planning to install a Froling S30 wood boiler along with 400 gallons of storage. It will be located in my detached garage/shop. I reaching out to see if I've missed anything or improvements I could make.

Question 1: I live in Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada does anyone out east have a leed on a storage tank 400+ gallons? or where I can pick one up? I've been looking for the past year and have had little luck in finding something used (Including propane tanks). If I have to I've allowed for buying one new.

Question 2: Pipe size for the main run. From the garage to the house is about 45'-50' underground. I ballpark from boiler to the distribution header in the house to be about 75'-100' Should I go with 1" or 1-1/4" I was thinking 1-1/4 for less head loss and more flow if needed in the future.

The current plan is to use 5 circulators labeled 1, 3, 4, 5 and 7 I was going to use all Alpha2, 15-55's (except for the domestic loop) There is an efficiency rebate and they cost about the same as a standard circ. The boiler and storage will be right next to one another. So I should be able to see 10 gpm flow. The boiler protection was going to be a caleffi ThermoProtec 280 valve.

Circ 3 Will heat the shop and when the garage is redone do the infloor loop.
Circ 4 is located in the garage and will run when zones call for heat. So pex size 1" or 1-1/4" with the Alpha2 15-55?

The main load for the house is the air handler it heats the 1000sqft basement (will be redone with infloor 5+ years) and the main level 1000sqft. We also have a full 2nd story but don't turn the heat on up there as the heat from the main level is enough to keep it warm.

The current infloor loop (200sqft) is my mother in laws room. We re did it and I added the infloor heat. It's currently being headed with my home made electric boiler I dont have the air traps shown but other than that anything I'm missing or changes you'd make? I look forward to reading your comments.

(Edit) The boiler protection loop isn't run separately to the storage it just tee's above it's self and the two water to air heat exchangers will be plumbed for even flow.

 

[airlina]

Your setup is similar to mine here in western NY. About the same distance to house from my boiler shed with a 100K Econoburn boiler and 500 gallons of storage . People smarter than me recommended 1 1/4" logstor for piping to the house which is what I used. I was able to repurpose a propane tank which I found locally at a propane supplier. After I cleaned the tank I took it to a facility near that added the fittings I needed, and also did the spray on insulation ( 6"). Has worked well for me. Bruce

 

[maple1]

For LP tanks, I found mine in Moncton NB. A whole mountain of them. At Tri Province on Toombs Street. 506-858-8110. Not sure what extension. Or if you are in the area just drop in & look/ask. That was 7 years ago now. I got 2 - 330's and a 100 for around $800. Just checked their website, they changed it. Used to show what they had, but doesn't any more. It's a bit of a drive from Kentville but would likely be worth it if they had what you wanted. I just pulled in with a trailer and they dropped them right on.

Have you checked with big metal recyclers/scrap yards around Halifax?

 

[chew72]

For LP tanks, I found mine in Moncton NB. A whole mountain of them. At Tri Province on Toombs Street. 506-858-8110. Not sure what extension. Or if you are in the area just drop in & look/ask. That was 7 years ago now. I got 2 - 330's and a 100 for around $800. Just checked their website, they changed it. Used to show what they had, but doesn't any more. It's a bit of a drive from Kentville but would likely be worth it if they had what you wanted. I just pulled in with a trailer and they dropped them right on.

Have you checked with big metal recyclers/scrap yards around Halifax?

That's a good idea I checked with places here locally they all said they used to get tanks but don't anymore. My next step is trying to get a hold of the two propane suppliers in the area and see who comes and picks up their tanks. In a perfect world their truck would have a crane and the driver wouldn't mind making a few extra bucks to offload one 5 minutes up the road.

I would rather go with one 500 gallon propane tank installed vertically. I have a friend with a pressure ticket and he owes me a favour so that covers the welding.

I think I will go with 1-1/4" pipe.

 

[maple1]

How much of your system in the diagram is existing and what is new?

 

[chew72]

How much of your system in the diagram is existing and what is new?

All new. So I'm open to changes.
We currently heat with a poorly sized LG heatpump. It.'s oversized, loud and cycles on and off 10 timed in an hour. We burn about $2300 in electricity heating with the heatpump.

The garage has no heat and the shop has 1000w baseboard just to keep things from freezing.

 

[Highbeam]

That's a good idea I checked with places here locally they all said they used to get tanks but don't anymore. My next step is trying to get a hold of the two propane suppliers in the area and see who comes and picks up their tanks. In a perfect world their truck would have a crane and the driver wouldn't mind making a few extra bucks to offload one 5 minutes up the road.

I would rather go with one 500 gallon propane tank installed vertically. I have a friend with a pressure ticket and he owes me a favour so that covers the welding.

I think I will go with 1-1/4" pipe.

I would guess that there will be a few gallons of lpg in a tank like that. Gives me the willys thinking about welding on one. I’m sure you know how to make it safe.

 

[maple1]

I would guess that there will be a few gallons of lpg in a tank like that. Gives me the willys thinking about welding on one. I’m sure you know how to make it safe.

When I went to get mine, the whole mountain of them had been sitting there for quite some time with all holes/taps unplugged & open.

When I got them home, just for craps & giggles, I tried for some action with a tin can with a fire inside of it screwed to a looong stick . Nothing. I was disappointed.

 

[maple1]

All new. So I'm open to changes.
We currently heat with a poorly sized LG heatpump. It.'s oversized, loud and cycles on and off 10 timed in an hour. We burn about $2300 in electricity heating with the heatpump.

The garage has no heat and the shop has 1000w baseboard just to keep things from freezing.

Sounds like an older inefficient heat pump? I'd almost be tempted to invest in new HP tech, vs. the boiler setup. Having been through both now, I'm really liking the new mini-splits. Haven't been with them for a year yet though, and they can't do hydronic - but they do A/C very well also, which the boiler can't.

Will try to check out the diagram more later...

 

[chew72]

Sounds like an older inefficient heat pump? I'd almost be tempted to invest in new HP tech, vs. the boiler setup. Having been through both now, I'm really liking the new mini-splits. Haven't been with them for a year yet though, and they can't do hydronic - but they do A/C very well also, which the boiler can't.

Will try to check out the diagram more later...

The HP is 4years old and has cost us $1500 in repairs so far. The moral of the story is we shouldn't have gone with the local company. I found out since then to call them Crooks would be an understatement.

The other half of that is don't go with LG they only offer a two-year warranty on parts in hindsight I should have took more of a direct role in sizing of the heat pump if we had gone with my estimates it would have been better sized, I left it up to the "professionals" I also would have rather gone with Fujitsu or Mitsubishi.

As for the tank a friend out west modified one for his boiler. It came with all the plugs open on it, but still smelled like propane. Before welding he ran a long shop vac hose and hooked to the exhaust of the shop vac and ran it to the tank. He let it run for an hour. Figuring it exchanges the air every few mins. Then swapped the shop vac for his car exhaust followed by the cutting and welding. But yeah the idea of working on one still seems sketchie.

 

[maple1]

They will stink forever, I think. From what I read it's not necessarily the gas itself, but something they put in it to make it stink bad so you know when there is a leak.

After my disappointing fire on a stick thing, what I did was (to be more sure), get a big funnel, and duct taped a hose onto the end of it. Then I stuck it in a hole in the top of the tank with the gap stuffed tight with a rag and pointed the funnel into prevailing winds. There were also holes on the opposite bottom ends. So (I think) air was moving through the tanks for a while before I reloaded them & took them to the welders. Think I did that for a week or so.

Even then, the welder guy didn't seem too worried about welding on LP tanks even before I told him what I did.

(I also avoided LG, & went with Daikin - would likely not get anything except Daikin, Mitsubishi or Fujitsu).

 

[airlina]

They will stink forever, I think. From what I read it's not necessarily the gas itself, but something they put in it to make it stink bad so you know when there is a leak.

After my disappointing fire on a stick thing, what I did was (to be more sure), get a big funnel, and duct taped a hose onto the end of it. Then I stuck it in a hole in the top of the tank with the gap stuffed tight with a rag and pointed the funnel into prevailing winds. There were also holes on the opposite bottom ends. So (I think) air was moving through the tanks for a while before I reloaded them & took them to the welders. Think I did that for a week or so.

Even then, the welder guy didn't seem too worried about welding on LP tanks even before I told him what I did.

(I also avoided LG, & went with Daikin - would likely not get anything except Daikin, Mitsubishi or Fujitsu).

 

[airlina]

when I got my 500 gallon propane tank I got some intel from the guys at Econoburn on how to clean it. The stink is an additive called mercaptan to identify leaks. I used a product available at the big box stores called Odoban that I mixed in the tank with water , then rolled the tank around with my tractor(don't do this around the house because when you drain the water your front lawn will stick for a long time. I then took my pressure washer with a 90 degree wand and gave it a good cleaning and draining. Did a good job before welding was done. Bruce

 

[chew72]

Ok quick question. I have extra room in the basement not so much in the garage where the boiler and tanks are located.

I'd like to locate the expansion tanks in the basement on the return piping. I can not see a downside to this. Am I missing something or is this a good idea?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[maple1]

Sounds fine to me. You might need to tweak precharge pressure a bit depending on elevation differences.

Unless I'm missing something too.

 

[chew72]

Sounds fine to me. You might need to tweak precharge pressure a bit depending on elevation differences.

Unless I'm missing something too.

Glad to hear we're on the same page. System pressure shouldn't be an issue 12psi cold and from top to bottom 16' elevation change.

This frees up a lot of space for me in the garage.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[maple1]

It would depend where you measure system pressures at. Assuming you still want a few pounds at the top when cold (3 or 4?), that would translate to 10 or so at the bottom of 16'. And 7 or so in the middle. If your gauge happens to be in the middle and you start with 12 there cold, you might want to bump precharge up a bit if expansion is at the bottom. By .4psi/foot. Or, reduce cold system pressure at the middle by that much.

 

[mustash29]

You have a pump and flat plate HX to feed your DHW tank. Why not just go with an indirect style DHW tank?

Do you have room to put some or all of your storage in the house? It seems like you may have stratification issues with shop storage and heat loss to underground pex with forced hot air HX's in the house needing temps on the warmer side to work well. May want to oversize the forced hot air HX's so you can get by with lower storage temps.

 

[maple1]

You have a pump and flat plate HX to feed your DHW tank. Why not just go with an indirect style DHW tank?

Do you have room to put some or all of your storage in the house? It seems like you may have stratification issues with shop storage and heat loss to underground pex with forced hot air HX's in the house needing temps on the warmer side to work well. May want to oversize the forced hot air HX's so you can get by with lower storage temps.

Can't speak for the OP, but I did a flat plate so I could also heat my DHW tank with its electric elements when not burning.

 

[chew72]

You have a pump and flat plate HX to feed your DHW tank. Why not just go with an indirect style DHW tank?

Do you have room to put some or all of your storage in the house? It seems like you may have stratification issues with shop storage and heat loss to underground pex with forced hot air HX's in the house needing temps on the warmer side to work well. May want to oversize the forced hot air HX's so you can get by with lower storage temps.

The tank for DHW is an existing 60gallon. The heatEX is over sized along with the water to air for the forced air. In the future the DHW tank will be indirect and the heatEX will be repurposed to snowmelt a walkway.

As for the tanks no room to have them in the house. The pex I used was logstor and should have minimal loss. I calculated everything to work well down to 120F and in actuality 110F or lower might be fine. Just have to wait and see at this point.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[chew72]

I'll also and the reason for switching to indirect in the future is to have a solar hot water loop to heat the DHW in the summer.

I'm not putting too much thought in it at the moment but I even thought if you had snowmelt for a driveway why couldn't you run it in reverse in the summer even for an hour or two mid day to dump heat into a DHW tank or preheat tank.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[empyre elite 100 mad cust]

Hello all It's been ages since I've been on here but I'm currently planning to install a Froling S30 wood boiler along with 400 gallons of storage. It will be located in my detached garage/shop. I reaching out to see if I've missed anything or improvements I could make.

Question 1: I live in Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada does anyone out east have a leed on a storage tank 400+ gallons? or where I can pick one up? I've been looking for the past year and have had little luck in finding something used (Including propane tanks). If I have to I've allowed for buying one new.

Question 2: Pipe size for the main run. From the garage to the house is about 45'-50' underground. I ballpark from boiler to the distribution header in the house to be about 75'-100' Should I go with 1" or 1-1/4" I was thinking 1-1/4 for less head loss and more flow if needed in the future.

The current plan is to use 5 circulators labeled 1, 3, 4, 5 and 7 I was going to use all Alpha2, 15-55's (except for the domestic loop) There is an efficiency rebate and they cost about the same as a standard circ. The boiler and storage will be right next to one another. So I should be able to see 10 gpm flow. The boiler protection was going to be a caleffi ThermoProtec 280 valve.

Circ 3 Will heat the shop and when the garage is redone do the infloor loop.
Circ 4 is located in the garage and will run when zones call for heat. So pex size 1" or 1-1/4" with the Alpha2 15-55?

The main load for the house is the air handler it heats the 1000sqft basement (will be redone with infloor 5+ years) and the main level 1000sqft. We also have a full 2nd story but don't turn the heat on up there as the heat from the main level is enough to keep it warm.

The current infloor loop (200sqft) is my mother in laws room. We re did it and I added the infloor heat. It's currently being headed with my home made electric boiler I dont have the air traps shown but other than that anything I'm missing or changes you'd make? I look forward to reading your comments.

(Edit) The boiler protection loop isn't run separately to the storage it just tee's above it's self and the two water to air heat exchangers will be plumbed for even flow.
View attachment 248582

did you finally install the Froling? how is it? im looking into one also as my Empyre Elite just sprung leaks

 

[chew72]

Yes I have. I continued the thread over here. I can't recommend Froling enough. I have experience with conventional as well as froling and vigas gasification boilers. I would choose froling again in a heartbeat.

 

[empyre elite 100 mad cust]

Yes I have. I continued the thread over here. I can't recommend Froling enough. I have experience with conventional as well as froling and vigas gasification boilers. I would choose froling again in a heartbeat.

Niiice, how big is your house? how many face cords of wood have you used per winter? where do you live?

 

[salecker]

Face cord is a term with no meaning
A full cord is 4 ft by 4 ft by 8 ft,those are the dimensions that are for measuring fire wood.