Need a secondary heat source.. Wood or Pellet?

[Dustin92]

I haven't posted in a VERY long time, we had a poorly installed insert in our previous home which was a fire hazard so we gave up on using it. My dad passed away 3 years ago and my mom and I just bought a "new to us" home. 1500 square feet of drafty old farm house in the middle of a corn field in Michigan. Has a new 60k btu 96% propane furnace. Which I'm figuring out is grossly undersized. It's been running pretty much nonstop on 2nd stage all day, and with an electric heater running downstairs is holding near 69. Upstairs however, was 49 degrees this morning and has not been over 58, with an electric heater running in one room. We're comfortable at 70-72+ during the day and 65 at night but we're going to go broke running all these heaters. I need a relatively inexpensive solution to make this house liveable. I'm about to list our 2nd car for sale (needs more work than it's worth) so I may have $1-2k to work with.

I want a wood stove, mom wants a pellet stove. We're looking at 2 different placement options, option 1 would be either stove venting into an existing chimney that was previously used for a wood furnace years ago, which was located in the basement (1/2 unfinished basement,1/2 crawl space). I have no plans of putting a stove in the basement, but if a connection could be made to that chimney, (can that even be done??) on the 1st floor I think we could make the rest work. Brick chimney, looks like it has clay/terra cotta liner. Not sure if it's even useable.

Option 2 would be either type of stove in the NW corner of our living room, pellet stove could exhaust directly out the back, wood stove would need to have a pipe run through the ceiling, 2nd floor and ceiling, and through the roof. (Can that be done??)

Wood can be had cheap or free. Pellets not so much but definitely easier and less cleanup. Pellets stove needs power to run.. Wood stove doesn't. I think I have enough of a handle on running both types of stove to do so safely and efficiently. Pros and cons of both?

Any advice is appreciated, freezing here in Michigan with -2 this afternoon and -20+ windchills.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think I’d look at the immediate low hanging fruit and tighten up that house. Can you seal and insulate the attic with cellulose? Seal and insulate the sill plate? Plastic over the windows? Close off rooms to effectively make the house smaller? Can you adjust dampers on the furnace duct work to push heat into the more habitable areas?

I wouldn’t trust an old chimney without an inspection, so that would put me in the pellet camp. I’d put it in the area where you’ll be spending the majority of your time and run the vent out the wall.

 

[begreen]

Option 2 would be either type of stove in the NW corner of our living room, pellet stove could exhaust directly out the back, wood stove would need to have a pipe run through the ceiling, 2nd floor and ceiling, and through the roof. (Can that be done??)

Yes it can be done. It will cost most if not all of the $1500-2000 budget for the flue system in addition to the wood stove cost.

 

[VintageGal]

If your mom is home all day alone I would vote for the pellet stove.

 

[Dustin92]

I think I’d look at the immediate low hanging fruit and tighten up that house. Can you seal and insulate the attic with cellulose? Seal and insulate the sill plate? Plastic over the windows? Close off rooms to effectively make the house smaller? Can you adjust dampers on the furnace duct work to push heat into the more habitable areas?

I wouldn’t trust an old chimney without an inspection, so that would put me in the pellet camp. I’d put it in the area where you’ll be spending the majority of your time and run the vent out the wall.

I'm not sure where to start as far as insulation. I've been putting plastic on the old single pane windows (some have been replaced with modern windows, some are single pane wooden frame windows with aluminum storm windows) We have 2 bedrooms closed off (heat registers closed, curtains closed and doors closed) Furnace is doing all it can and still not enough. These last couple days we've been wondering if we made a huge mistake purchasing this house. I'm currently sitting in front of a heater in my 58 degree bedroom..

 

[Dustin92]

If your mom is home all day alone I would vote for the pellet stove

She is capable of running either stove if the wood/pellets are close, my parents heated with wood years ago when I was in diapers.. I can do all the hauling and cleaning/removing ash etc. She can't haul a lot but would be able to haul enough to keep the stove running while I'm gone (normally 5-6 hours)

 

[ABMax24]

I'll let other focus on the best heating options. Let's look at free stuff.

The basement, is it heated by the furnace? Does it need to be? Can you close off some registers and direct the heat upstairs?

Is there ducting running somewhere it shouldn't? My parents old house had a duct running into the attached garage.

The old chimney, is it sealed off? This could be a major heat loss if not.

Has the furnace filter been changed recently? If it's plugged its possible the burners cycle on and off and don't give full heat.

How's the weather stripping on the exterior doors? Can you tighten up the latches a little if the weatherstripping is leaking?

Personally I don't think your furnace is undersized, your heat loss is just too great. I heat 1500sqft plus basement with an 80k and in -40 my furnace only see 5hrs of run time in a 24hr period. So heat loss is where I would start, heck a piece of Kleenex is sometimes a helpful tool in finding the big drafts and air leaks.

 

[Highbeam]

The 60k furnace running full time and still cold tells us something is wrong. That’s more output than the biggest wood stove or the biggest pellet stove. Either the furnace is broken or some major low hanging fruit exists with regards to reducing heat loss.

That all said, in your situation, I would go for pellet or something else that burns propane like a gas wall heater. We all should have a thermostatic heat source that can carry the home in our absence.

 

[ABMax24]

So rough knapkin math, 60k btu running 24/7 is 2-3 cords per month depending on wood species and stove efficiency.

I like cutting and splitting wood, and did 10 cords in a year once, but I wouldn't want to make that a yearly occurance.

 

[mdocod]

Wood burning might be in your future for this house, but it's not a solution to the current problem. You're pumping more heat into this house than is required to keep a typical track home twice that size comfortably warm in significantly colder temps. You have an insulation deficit so large that you would be feeding a massive wood stove piles of wood to keep up and still probably come up short.

A 96% furnace uses a blower to drive combustion air through the burners and out the exhaust. That combustion air should be supplied from outside, if it isn't, it will be drawing cold air into the house at a rate comparable to leaving a bathroom fan or oven hood on all the time. Check to see that the furnace was installed with outside air supply.

While checking out the furnace, make sure the filter is in good shape so it can flow air freely. A review of how it exchanges air in the house is warranted.. Does the furnace have a proper return-air system that pulls air from various parts of the living space and are all the heat registers properly ducted to the unit? Do any of the ducts go somewhere they shouldn't, resulting in air being pumped out of the house, or drawn into the house? ABMax pointed this out and this is critical.. any duct that goes outside the "sealed" envelope of the house proper will either pump heat out or suck cold in.

Check the house for air leaks and get them sealed up. Spend the money on some combination of insulation, caulk, housewrap, sheeting, siding, and windows as appropriate. $2000 into sealing up and insulating the house will do more to improve your living situation than a wood stove. Installing a wood stove to overcome the heat deficit will just occupy all your time with endless wood handling. Might sound like fun at first but it's a waste when the effort is all just going out the window.

 

[VintageGal]

Move living/eating/sleeping quarters close to a central "hearth". Close off the distant rooms. Tackle the caulking and insulation one room at a time. Any evidence that there was once a wood cook stove in the kitchen? You said yourself that you could vent the pellet stove for substantially less money than a new chimney liner. Your mom said she wants a pellet stove, did she give you her reasons why? There is often wisdom in our elders. Hopefully there is open and friendly communication about this life sustaining issue ✌️

 

[Dustin92]

I'll let other focus on the best heating options. Let's look at free stuff.

The basement, is it heated by the furnace? Does it need to be? Can you close off some registers and direct the heat upstairs?

Is there ducting running somewhere it shouldn't? My parents old house had a duct running into the attached garage.

The old chimney, is it sealed off? This could be a major heat loss if not.

Has the furnace filter been changed recently? If it's plugged its possible the burners cycle on and off and don't give full heat.

How's the weather stripping on the exterior doors? Can you tighten up the latches a little if the weatherstripping is leaking?

Personally I don't think your furnace is undersized, your heat loss is just too great. I heat 1500sqft plus basement with an 80k and in -40 my furnace only see 5hrs of run time in a 24hr period. So heat loss is where I would start, heck a piece of Kleenex is sometimes a helpful tool in finding the big drafts and air leaks.

Basement isn't directly heated by the furnace, though there is definitely some air leakage from the ducts. Seems to be around 50 and drafty. Not sure how much sealing of the ducts I want to do for fear of pipes freezing.

Only duct running outside the main house is a 4" duct that comes out behind the washer/dryer in the breezeway (mainly keeps pipes from freezing, hopefully)

Old chimney is covered on the roof, and I can stuff it up in the basement if needed.

Furnace filter was changed about 2 weeks ago, furnace seems to be operating as designed. Burners don't cycle off until the end of the heating cycle.

Kitchen door is sealed relatively well, front door not so much. I added some weatherstripping to the front door but I need more.. Door itself seems to be losing a lot of heat so I hung a quilt over it. May put plastic on the front door honestly.

I feel it's a combination of an undersized furnace and a drafty old house. I've done some sealing (added a 2" styrofoam sheet to the crawlspace access, spray foamed some gaps around wires and water lines) and had no noticeable improvement.

 

[Dustin92]

Move living/eating/sleeping quarters close to a central "hearth". Close off the distant rooms. Tackle the caulking and insulation one room at a time. Any evidence that there was once a wood cook stove in the kitchen? You said yourself that you could vent the pellet stove for substantially less money than a new chimney liner. Your mom said she wants a pellet stove, did she give you her reasons why? There is often wisdom in our elders. Hopefully there is open and friendly communication about this life sustaining issue ✌️

Main issue I'm having is getting heat upstairs. It can be 68-70 downstairs and 60 or less upstairs. That's not how things are supposed to work.. Heat rises! 😅

I don't think there was ever a wood cook stove in the kitchen (at least since it was remodeled last) but I did think about it. Kitchen was added as an afterthought to the back of the house so I'm afraid heat wouldn't make it to the front of the house and up the stairs. Main house was built in the 1890's from what we're told and has been added onto a couple times.

Mom wants a pellet stove for ease of use, "set it and forget it" but she doesn't realize there's more to it than dumping a bag of pellets down the chute every so often. I don't see her hauling on 50lb bags of pellets. I'm also looking at a pellet stove needing power constantly, where a wood stove doesn't. We don't have a backup generator- I have a portable one I can hook up if needed but it's not wired yet. Trying to supplement the furnace and cut down on propane usage.

 

[Dustin92]

So rough knapkin math, 60k btu running 24/7 is 2-3 cords per month depending on wood species and stove efficiency.

I like cutting and splitting wood, and did 10 cords in a year once, but I wouldn't want to make that a yearly occurance.

It's definitely not running all 60k btu 24/7 but running on 2nd stage more than not- shuts off for maybe 5-10 minutes and fires right back up, and that's with a couple electric heaters running as well.

 

[Dustin92]

Wood burning might be in your future for this house, but it's not a solution to the current problem. You're pumping more heat into this house than is required to keep a typical track home twice that size comfortably warm in significantly colder temps. You have an insulation deficit so large that you would be feeding a massive wood stove piles of wood to keep up and still probably come up short.

A 96% furnace uses a blower to drive combustion air through the burners and out the exhaust. That combustion air should be supplied from outside, if it isn't, it will be drawing cold air into the house at a rate comparable to leaving a bathroom fan or oven hood on all the time. Check to see that the furnace was installed with outside air supply.

While checking out the furnace, make sure the filter is in good shape so it can flow air freely. A review of how it exchanges air in the house is warranted.. Does the furnace have a proper return-air system that pulls air from various parts of the living space and are all the heat registers properly ducted to the unit? Do any of the ducts go somewhere they shouldn't, resulting in air being pumped out of the house, or drawn into the house? ABMax pointed this out and this is critical.. any duct that goes outside the "sealed" envelope of the house proper will either pump heat out or suck cold in.

Check the house for air leaks and get them sealed up. Spend the money on some combination of insulation, caulk, housewrap, sheeting, siding, and windows as appropriate. $2000 into sealing up and insulating the house will do more to improve your living situation than a wood stove. Installing a wood stove to overcome the heat deficit will just occupy all your time with endless wood handling. Might sound like fun at first but it's a waste when the effort is all just going out the window.

No way is a 60k btu furnace going to keep 3000sq ft. comfortable in this climate. Furnace does not have outside air supply but is in the unfinished basement.. I can put my hand over the air intake and it's barely drawing anything. Barely anything coming out the exhaust either. 2 small return vents on the main floor. . maybe not enough but I can't rip up floors to make them larger.

I can do some insulation and caulk but we're on limited funds and I can't replace windows or siding currently.. Hell I'm not sure we're even staying here if we can't stay warm this winter. Trying to do as much as possible for as little as possible and we're going to go broke heating with propane and electric. Had I known when we bought this house how hard it would be to heat, we would have never bought it. We like the house and the area but we're in over our heads.

 

[peakbagger]

Uncle Sam is literally throwing money at states from the Inflation Reduction Act for energy efficiency. The problem is that states without active programs need to setup programs to run the programs. Odds are within several months your local utilities are going to be offering energy audits. They spend about 4 hours in the house using something called a blower door and can come up with list of the biggest bang for the buck energy savings. With a house like you describe My guess is they can come up with a 1/3 reduction in heating with short payback (usually 1 to 2 years). In most cases the utility pays for some portion of the upgrades up to certain limit. There are also yearly tax credits for energy efficient improvements. My guess is the ductwork is not great and the basement is probably leaking a lot of cold air but with a blower door and another tool called a duct blaster there is no guessing.

Windows leak a lot of heat, if you do not need the light, a sheet of foil faced isoboard foam cut tight to slide into the window frame from the inside makes big difference. If its too ugly, go to Walmart and buy some cheap fabric to cover it.

 

[mdocod]

No way is a 60k btu furnace going to keep 3000sq ft. comfortable in this climate. Furnace does not have outside air supply but is in the unfinished basement.. I can put my hand over the air intake and it's barely drawing anything. Barely anything coming out the exhaust either. 2 small return vents on the main floor. . maybe not enough but I can't rip up floors to make them larger.

I can do some insulation and caulk but we're on limited funds and I can't replace windows or siding currently.. Hell I'm not sure we're even staying here if we can't stay warm this winter. Trying to do as much as possible for as little as possible and we're going to go broke heating with propane and electric. Had I known when we bought this house how hard it would be to heat, we would have never bought it. We like the house and the area but we're in over our heads.

My house is 3500 sq ft, with 18ft cielings in about 1/3rd of the home. Custom design but standard stick construction. 2x6 exterior walls, lots of huge windows. Temps here on Thursday morning and night were -18F. We shut down the wood stove that afternoon due to soot plugging up the cat (another thread...), the furnace kept the house ~69F average temp on stage 1 (~65K BTU) at about 75% duty cycle through the evening with the stove cooled down. The night before, with the wood stove running, the duty cycle was maybe around 25%.

"No way...?"

Friend of mine was observing the effort the newly installed Furnace in his parents place was needing to keep up with this cold snap. That's about a 2500sq ft house with a new 90K BTU modulating furnace. It kept the house warm at only 40% (36K BTU) output (it's lowest output) and still wasn't running 100% duty cycle. That's in a track home built in the 1980s, 2x4 exterior walls, probably collapsed insulation in most walls and thin insulation above the ceiling, and the furnace didn't even break a sweat to keep the home comfortable. Despite the poor insulation in that home it is well kept by the owner with regard to keeping it air tight, and it has new windows, which helps a ton.

If you're cold in a 1500 sq ft home with a 60K BTU furnace that can't keep up, then you probably have some giant holes in the house and/or totally missing insulation that needs to be addressed...

If there are no return ducts, only return vents (grates in floor?) to the basement, then your furnace is drawing a vacuum on the basement while running. Go around the basement and feel for cold air being sucked in around the perimeter. There's probably a low hanging fruit to be found down there that just needs some sheeting and insulation or some brick stacking and mortar... In a very old structure the basement might not even have a complete foundation around the perimeter so there may be lots of opportunities for air to be sucked in.

Meanwhile if there's a path of least resistance to suck cold air into the basement, then there's also probably a path that the heat is escaping out of the pressurized living space of the house.

Find the leaks!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

When weatherproofing a house, always look at the attic first. As you said, heat rises. Its leaving your 2nd floor now. Stop it. Do you have access to the attic? A few tubes of caulk and foam sealing around light fixtures and plumbing vents at ceiling level will make a huge difference.

Then look at the windows. Plastic over them, quilts, etc over them will also keep heat in. After you get the top floor under control, look at the basement. Rim joists, foundation holes, etc.

 

[ispinwool]

Windows leak a lot of heat, if you do not need the light, a sheet of foil faced isoboard foam cut tight to slide into the window frame from the inside makes big difference. If its too ugly, go to Walmart and buy some cheap fabric to cover it.

I agree with covering windows...these "window quilts" are hung on our windows each year to help with heat loss/cold seepage...they are far from pretty but they help and are relatively cheap. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/successful-test.173966/#post-2358559

 

[Dustin92]

My house is 3500 sq ft, with 18ft cielings in about 1/3rd of the home. Custom design but standard stick construction. 2x6 exterior walls, lots of huge windows. Temps here on Thursday morning and night were -18F. We shut down the wood stove that afternoon due to soot plugging up the cat (another thread...), the furnace kept the house ~69F average temp on stage 1 (~65K BTU) at about 75% duty cycle through the evening with the stove cooled down. The night before, with the wood stove running, the duty cycle was maybe around 25%.

"No way...?"

Friend of mine was observing the effort the newly installed Furnace in his parents place was needing to keep up with this cold snap. That's about a 2500sq ft house with a new 90K BTU modulating furnace. It kept the house warm at only 40% (36K BTU) output (it's lowest output) and still wasn't running 100% duty cycle. That's in a track home built in the 1980s, 2x4 exterior walls, probably collapsed insulation in most walls and thin insulation above the ceiling, and the furnace didn't even break a sweat to keep the home comfortable. Despite the poor insulation in that home it is well kept by the owner with regard to keeping it air tight, and it has new windows, which helps a ton.

If you're cold in a 1500 sq ft home with a 60K BTU furnace that can't keep up, then you probably have some giant holes in the house and/or totally missing insulation that needs to be addressed...

If there are no return ducts, only return vents (grates in floor?) to the basement, then your furnace is drawing a vacuum on the basement while running. Go around the basement and feel for cold air being sucked in around the perimeter. There's probably a low hanging fruit to be found down there that just needs some sheeting and insulation or some brick stacking and mortar... In a very old structure the basement might not even have a complete foundation around the perimeter so there may be lots of opportunities for air to be sucked in.

Meanwhile if there's a path of least resistance to suck cold air into the basement, then there's also probably a path that the heat is escaping out of the pressurized living space of the house.

Find the leaks!

We're warming up slowly as the outdoor temps rise, thankfully. I suppose we were never really at a point where we "couldnt" stay warm but comfort was less than optimal to say the least. No giant holes but definitely small issues that need to be addressed. We bought the house the end of June and were just able to move in around Halloween.

There are return ducts, which are connected to 2, 2"x12" floor registers, both on the 1st floor. Doesn't seem like enough return capacity to me but the furnace was installed professionally. Basement is just generally cold and drafty, I'm going to cover and insulate the 2 windows. There is a complete concrete foundation all the way around, and no major gaps that I can see. Basement is connected to an unfinished crawlspace (I've been in the crawlspace and not noticed any major gaps, filled ones I saw with expanding foam)

 

[Dustin92]

Merry Christmas to all!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Merry Christmas! G.ad to hear you're warmer! What kind of concrete foundation? Block? Check mortar for gaps thatd require repointing. Also around the sill plate and rim joist.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Really though. The most bang for the buck fixes will be 2nd floor ceiling. Air won't be pulled in the bottom if its not exiting the top!

 

[Dustin92]

When weatherproofing a house, always look at the attic first. As you said, heat rises. Its leaving your 2nd floor now. Stop it. Do you have access to the attic? A few tubes of caulk and foam sealing around light fixtures and plumbing vents at ceiling level will make a huge difference.

Then look at the windows. Plastic over them, quilts, etc over them will also keep heat in. After you get the top floor under control, look at the basement. Rim joists, foundation holes, etc.

Unfortunately no attic access without removing part of a bedroom ceiling. Putting plastic on windows one at a time.

Rim joists? I'm pretty clueless on some of these terms.. I've never owned a home before and my mom hasn't owned a home without my Dad.. He was the handyman and we've been a bit lost without him to say the least.. I'm trying but it's been a challenge! I did manage to tighten a leaking plumbing connection in the basement a while back and I rewired our dishwasher this past week..

 

[Dustin92]

When weatherproofing a house, always look at the attic first. As you said, heat rises. Its leaving your 2nd floor now. Stop it. Do you have access to the attic? A few tubes of caulk and foam sealing around light fixtures and plumbing vents at ceiling level will make a huge difference.

Then look at the windows. Plastic over them, quilts, etc over them will also keep heat in. After you get the top floor under control, look at the basement. Rim joists, foundation holes, etc.

Unfortunately no attic access without removing part of a bedroom ceiling. Putting plastic on windows one at a time.

Rim joists? I'm pretty clueless on some of these terms.. I've never owned a home before and my mom hasn't owned a home without my Dad.. He was the handyman and we've been a bit lost without him to say the least.. I'm trying but it's been a challenge! I did manage to tighten a leaking plumbing connection in the basement a while back and I rewired our dishwasher this past week

Merry Christmas! G.ad to hear you're warmer! What kind of concrete foundation? Block? Check mortar for gaps thatd require repointing. Also around the sill plate and rim joist.

Concrete block foundation as far as I can tell. No major gaps, one small crack I need to seal up.