Need help with a new heat source

[awhitedev]

We have a well insulated, 2 story, 2,200 square foot home with a basement (not included in square footage) in the country-side of central Ohio. It gets very cold here... as low as -20 F... with the average being around 10-30 degrees F in the dead of winter. We currently have an electric heat pump and furnace that has been very expensive to run. ($350-450 / mo) Last week, the compressor went out... leaving us only with the expensive electric furnace for heat next winter.

Rather than replacing my heat pump and continuing to fight high electric bills... I'm weighing my options over other primary heat sources.

In our home, the bedrooms are upstairs and the main living area is on the first floor. From everything I've read on this forum it sounds like a stove would be our best bet and that it should probably be on the main floor.

1) Can a stove effectively act as a primary heat source for a home of my size / layout? I understand it will be hard for the stove to heat the upper floor... but will it be good enough to take the chill out of the air? Will vents on the floor / ceiling from the main floor make it easier for warm air to rise?

2) What stove would you recommend?

I understand these questions are subjective... but I'm a complete newb to wood heating and have no idea where to start.

Thanks for your help!

 

[begreen]

Welcome. I'd fix or upgrade the heat pump first. In Ohio you also need cooling in the summer. And you want a backup system for winter.

A well located and sized stove can heat both floors. How well it will do depends a lot on the house floorplan, location of the stove, openess of the floorplan, ceiling height, stove size, and most importantly the quality of the wood burned. Modern stoves want fully seasoned wood to perform at their optimum.

 

[Grisu]

Welcome!

A stove should certainly be able to make a (big) dent in your heating bill. How big will depend on several factors such as insulation, floor layout, quality of fuel (wood), your ability to feed the stove regularly etc. However, a new stove absolutely requires dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%. That requires stacking the split wood out in the open for up to 3 years in some cases. If you don't have access to dry wood you will have trouble heating your home with a stove this winter. You can purchase compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks or Bio-Bricks but you won't have quite the savings you were hoping for.

Given the size of your home and your climate a large stove with a firebox of at least 3 cu ft seems to be required. Assuming your electric heat was mostly resistance last winter and you pay $400 per kWh I calculate you needed about 15 million BTU per month. That's the heating value of almost a cord of wood. Thus, you would go through maybe 5 cords per winter; potentially more if you would like to increase your indoor temps. Simply based on that (and not knowing how well the heat may flow through the house) I would suggest to take a good look at the BlazeKing King. Its catalytic design will allow you to regulate the heat output well. It will give you low heat and long burn times during the not so cold months and enough spare capacity to crank it up when temps fall below 0 F. Another, cheaper candidate would be the Woodstock Ideal Steel. Not quite as large as the King but it only needs a 6" flue.

Some other large 3+ cu ft stoves: Jotul F55 and F600, Pacific Energy Summit and T6, Quadrafire 5700, Regency 3100, Buck 91/94, Kuma Sequoia, Hearthstone Manchester, Osburn 2400

If you are on a budget: Englander 30NC, Drolet Myriad and HT2000. Despite being quite a bit cheaper than the other stoves they will heat your home well.

 

[Oldman47]

If you have an existing heat pump arrangement, try looking at a ground source heat pump, sometimes called geothermal. I am in the process of building a rather large house at around 2500 sq ft plus a full basement and heated mine last winter for around $100 per month even though my insulation was not yet complete at the time. Since I was building I only heated to around 60ºF to keep pipes from freezing but it strikes me that your bills were ridiculous. My heat pump operates using 5 vertical wells drilled in the back yard down to around 250 feet so the heat pump is using 50ºF water rather than -20ºF air as its heat source. The available BTUs in that relatively warm water makes the heat pump far more efficient.

 

[awhitedev]

Welcome. I'd fix or upgrade the heat pump first. In Ohio you also need cooling in the summer. And you want a backup system for winter.

A well located and sized stove can heat both floors. How well it will do depends a lot on the house floorplan, location of the stove, openess of the floorplan, ceiling height, stove size, and most importantly the quality of the wood burned. Modern stoves want fully seasoned wood to perform at their optimum.

Thanks for the reply! We're not as concerned with cooling to be honest.... and I think our backup (the furnace) would still work if we ever needed it without the heat pump it would just be very expensive. Now granted, I don't think our heat pump was working at its best... as I believe it was on its last leg.. and that could've been the whole problem. I'd just hate to continue paying 400+ a month in electric for a system that does not efficiently heat my home.

Welcome!

A stove should certainly be able to make a (big) dent in your heating bill. How big will depend on several factors such as insulation, floor layout, quality of fuel (wood), your ability to feed the stove regularly etc. However, a new stove absolutely requires dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%. That requires stacking the split wood out in the open for up to 3 years in some cases. If you don't have access to dry wood you will have trouble heating your home with a stove this winter. You can purchase compressed wood logs like Envi-blocks or Bio-Bricks but you won't have quite the savings you were hoping for.

Given the size of your home and your climate a large stove with a firebox of at least 3 cu ft seems to be required. Assuming your electric heat was mostly resistance last winter and you pay $400 per kWh I calculate you needed about 15 million BTU per month. That's the heating value of almost a cord of wood. Thus, you would go through maybe 5 cords per winter; potentially more if you would like to increase your indoor temps. Simply based on that (and not knowing how well the heat may flow through the house) I would suggest to take a good look at the BlazeKing King. Its catalytic design will allow you to regulate the heat output well. It will give you low heat and long burn times during the not so cold months and enough spare capacity to crank it up when temps fall below 0 F. Another, cheaper candidate would be the Woodstock Ideal Steel. Not quite as large as the King but it only needs a 6" flue.

Some other large 3+ cu ft stoves: Jotul F55 and F600, Pacific Energy Summit and T6, Quadrafire 5700, Regency 3100, Buck 91/94, Kuma Sequoia, Hearthstone Manchester, Osburn 2400

If you are on a budget: Englander 30NC, Drolet Myriad and HT2000. Despite being quite a bit cheaper than the other stoves they will heat your home well.

Thanks for the recommendations! We were using a ton of electricity last year. We had a very hard winter... and the heat pump was working very hard to provide heat. In fact, I think most of the heat was coming from the furnace coils. As you all probably know... electric heat isn't a very satisfying heat either... even when it does work. Dry wood seems to be available in my area from what I've seen. 5 cords of wood would have to be cheaper than the outrageous electric bills I was paying.

What are all of you using as a backup heat source with your wood stove? Propane, gas, electric?

 

[awhitedev]

If you have an existing heat pump arrangement, try looking at a ground source heat pump, sometimes called geothermal. I am in the process of building a rather large house at around 2500 sq ft plus a full basement and heated mine last winter for around $100 per month even though my insulation was not yet complete at the time. Since I was building I only heated to around 60ºF to keep pipes from freezing but it strikes me that your bills were ridiculous. My heat pump operates using 5 vertical wells drilled in the back yard down to around 250 feet so the heat pump is using 50ºF water rather than -20ºF air as its heat source. The available BTUs in that relatively warm water makes the heat pump far more efficient.

Aren't geothermal systems very expensive? I would love to have one of those but I think they cost 15-20 grand. I'd need something for no more than 5-7 grand.

 

[Grisu]

Dry wood seems to be available in my area from what I've seen.

Please be aware that many firewood sellers advertise their wood as "seasoned' but that rarely means it is really dry (below 20% internal moisture). They often have it sit around in logs but that is not sufficient to get it dry. When calling around ask how long ago it has been split and stacked, it should be at least one year. In addition, I recommend testing some splits during delivery with a moisture meter. Split a few pieces in half and press the pins in the center of the fresh surface. It should read below 20%; if it is below 25% it may be burnable this winter since you also have a few more months of drying time. Above that will only be good for the winter(s) after when stacked in your yard to dry.

 

[begreen]

Aren't geothermal systems very expensive? I would love to have one of those but I think they cost 15-20 grand. I'd need something for no more than 5-7 grand.

I got a quote for $22K, 10 yrs ago and that did not include any of the earthwork (either surface plumbing or wells). A single 250ft well out here would cost around $15K. Fortunately in our milder climate good air-to-air heat pumps work fairly well.

 

[awhitedev]

Please be aware that many firewood sellers advertise their wood as "seasoned' but that rarely means it is really dry (below 20% internal moisture). They often have it sit around in logs but that is not sufficient to get it dry. When calling around ask how long ago it has been split and stacked, it should be at least one year. In addition, I recommend testing some splits during delivery with a moisture meter. Split a few pieces in half and press the pins in the center of the fresh surface. It should read below 20%; if it is below 25% it may be burnable this winter since you also have a few more months of drying time. Above that will only be good for the winter(s) after when stacked in your yard to dry.

I got a quote for $22K, 10 yrs ago and that did not include any of the earthwork (either surface plumbing or wells). A single 250ft well out here would cost around $15K. Fortunately in our milder climate good air-to-air heat pumps work fairly well.

Thanks for the tips! I will have to weigh my options I guess... I haven't lived in Ohio for too long but I'm getting the feeling that heat pumps do not work well here. Maybe as an auxiliary heat source... but it's not something I feel comfortable with relying on 100% of the time. Anyone else live in a cold place that can relate? What did you do?

 

[begreen]

Agreed. In your climate a back up solution for the coldest weather would be needed. Heat pump systems have several options depending on the air handler. They can use gas, oil or electric furnace as the low temp heat setting. Where we live electric is reasonably priced so that is our system, but it could just as well have been oil or propane. The only time our system has fallen back on the electric resistance heater is when we have been on vacation in the dead of winter. Our system is set to kick in the electric backup at 24F. If we are home the wood stove is going 24/7 so that is our normal backup. This is with a central air system. You might want to look into changing your air handler to a more affordable source like gas or possibly even pellets.

Another option is to put in a couple mini-splits which can work reasonably well down to zero degrees. I visited a neighbors old farmhouse one 14F day and their Fujitsu system was heating the house nicely.

 

[Grisu]

I think the wood stove is a good idea while the electric furnace could serve as backup. However, you need to be willing to put the work in. Even when you buy the wood, it needs to be stacked, moved to a shed/protected place in the fall and then brought inside for burning. If you cut and split your own wood it is more work but it gets cheaper. It is much different than ordering oil, gas etc. that is just a phone call away and then requires only the dial of the thermostat for burning. Most people here enjoy the whole process but it is certainly not for everyone.

If you are ok with that I would go ahead with your plan. While looking for stoves get some wood set up in your yard, if not for this winter then the next. There are options to get you through this winter: compressed logs, lumber scraps, pallets, kiln-dried wood etc. but the real savings will be in the winters after.

 

[killie11]

Have you thought about a pellet stove??

 

[begreen]

Or pellet furnace below the air handler.

 

[awhitedev]

Have you thought about a pellet stove??

Or pellet furnace below the air handler.

I have actually... it seems like that would also be a good option. What's the appeal with those? Besides the fact that you do not have to split, stack, or store wood. Are they cheaper and/or more sustainable?

I think the wood stove is a good idea while the electric furnace could serve as backup. However, you need to be willing to put the work in. Even when you buy the wood, it needs to be stacked, moved to a shed/protected place in the fall and then brought inside for burning. If you cut and split your own wood it is more work but it gets cheaper. It is much different than ordering oil, gas etc. that is just a phone call away and then requires only the dial of the thermostat for burning. Most people here enjoy the whole process but it is certainly not for everyone.

If you are ok with that I would go ahead with your plan. While looking for stoves get some wood set up in your yard, if not for this winter then the next. There are options to get you through this winter: compressed logs, lumber scraps, pallets, kiln-dried wood etc. but the real savings will be in the winters after.

I definitely don't mind rolling my sleeves up and doing some work if it means saving money. Wood is going for about 150-175 a cord in my area. I think that's a pretty reasonable price for hard wood right?

 

[Oldman47]

My quote for a complete system including all of the duct work and a water heater that gets a boost from the ground source was only about $25K. The price of the system without the vertical wells was about $4000 less. That would be using a horizontal loop system instead. I have 5 wells 250 feet deep so at $15,000 each, as begreen seemed to think, I would be into this thing crazy expensive and looking at a total closer to $100,000. I have a water well that has a proper casing for drinking water that is close to 200 feet deep and even that well was far less than $15,000. It was closer to $5000 including the pump and control system. A ground source well has no well casing, is small in diameter and is back filled with mud as soon as the ground loop is placed into it. Compared to a drinking water well it is cheap.
Without the ground source I would have probably had to pay well over $5000 just for all of the duct work that has been installed. Then there would be some kind of furnace at no less than $1500 and a 5 ton air conditioner at well over $2000. Then we have to think about the propane tank, which I have no idea the cost. Around here heating oil is not available and nat gas is strictly a city dweller's item.My house is out in the country. The water heater that is included in my estimate would be another $1000 or so. Instead of my system's estimate I would easily be paying $9,500 plus whatever the propane tank cost. In this cost breakdown I called it zero because I just don't know.
After talking to people who actually installed the same system I have, they tell me the pay back period compared to other heating and cooling methods is only about 4 years so I am happy to pay it.
In the case of someone who already owns a heat pump that needs to be replaced you are looking at adding only a new heat pump at about the same price as the replacement and running enough water pipe to bring the well system to the heat pump. The cost of drilling wells can vary a lot based on the type of earth you are drilling into. If you are drilling through bedrock, it would cost much more than mine did. All they fight around here is loose gravel and clay layers.

 

[killie11]

I have actually... it seems like that would also be a good option. What's the appeal with those? Besides the fact that you do not have to split, stack, or store wood. Are they cheaper and/or more sustainable??

They cost a little more to run then a wood stove. You fill a hopper typically with a bag or so of pellets and leave it for 24hrs or less depending on the temp. Head over to the pellet forum to get a much better idea of what they have to offer.

 

[Oldman47]

The only down side I see to a pellet stove is that it is like running with anything else that requires electricity. When the power is out for 3 days the house is going to get cold.

 

[begreen]

Yes, local well prices here are nuts, but they are what they are. I spoke to someone a couple weeks ago with a new well. The whole system (well, tank, pump and wiring) cost them $25K for a 265 ft drinking water well. Not sure about an uncased well but I would be surprised if we could get away with it cheaply in our captive market. Also, we are on glacial till which means frequent damage to the drill head here. That may factor in.

 

[killie11]

The only down side I see to a pellet stove is that it is like running with anything else that requires electricity. When the power is out for 3 days the house is going to get cold.

That is true unless you live in a location that only has power down max for a 24 hours. or you have a generator back up, though if you have a loss of power that much and it happens ofter generator would be a must.

 

[Grisu]

Wood is going for about 150-175 a cord in my area. I think that's a pretty reasonable price for hard wood right?

That's very reasonable and wood may be about the cheapest heat source you can have. Conservatively, you are getting 15 million BTU out of 1 cord. Thus, you are paying $10 to $12 per mBTU.
Pellets: A ton of pellets is ~16 mBTU which will give you approx. 13 mBTU effective heat. Should you need to pay $260 per ton, 1 mBTU will cost you $20. (The calculations for the compressed wood logs will be essentially the same.)
Electric (resistance heat): 1 kWh = 3412 BTU so roughly 300 kWh for 1 mBTU. Multiply that with your price per kWh and you know how much that costs you. A working heat pump will certainly make that look better.
For comparison:
Propane: 1 gl = 91,000 BTU. In 80% efficient furnace = 73,000 BTU per gallon. You will need roughly 13 gl for 1 mBTU. If current price in your area is $2.00 per gallon that would be $26 per 1 mBTU.

Wood certainly has also the advantage that it works during a power outage and you can scrounge some "free" wood and drop the cost even more.

 

[awhitedev]

I'm assuming most of you use your stove as a primary source of heat.... what do you use for backup? I'd hate to spend the extra money on a gas furnace when my end-game plan is to not rely on it for my primary source of heat. Electric furnaces are MUCH cheaper.. as much as $3000-$4000 cheaper. I think my plan will be to replace my electric system for this winter and save for a good efficient wood stove for the following winter. Sure my energy costs will be higher this year but at least I won't be scrambling to get wood together this year.... and I won't be without backup heat and potentially frozen pipes. Besides I can take that $3-4k and put it toward a nice stove. I hate electric heat... but sometimes it's necessary I suppose.

 

[Grisu]

Sure my energy costs will be higher this year but at least I won't be scrambling to get wood together this year.

Sounds like a plan. I suggest sticking around to zero in on the models you like most. However, don't delay getting the wood. Stack it now and you will get 1.5 summers of good drying. That should be sufficient for most woods but not all species (such as oak which is notoriously slow to dry). If you wait till next year you are probably going to be disappointed the first winter.

 

[awhitedev]

Going to sound like a dumb question but can wood be too seasoned? Let's say I buy wood this year that is already at 20-25% moisture content. In a year or two would that wood still burn well?

 

[Grisu]

In your climate: no problem. It will equilibrate with the air moisture and probably never get below 12% to 13% at most. And it is never that difficult to find some wetter pieces to throw in with the dry ones if necessary.

Btw. I would not count on finding wood that is 20% to 25% already. More likely anything you will buy will still be above 30%.