Need Help With Smoke Leaking Into Home

[Parallax]

Brother Bart, why did you close down the thread I posted? The questions I asked are legitimate and I appreciated the answers I received. I get that the subject is controversial but that's all the more reason to have the discussion; to see if we can separate out the legitimate concerns from those that we don't need to worry about.

In answer to some of the questions, the smoke seems to be coming off the top of the stove. It had disappeared for a time. Most likely the pipe soot had blocked the leak. But the dealer recently added a collar at the base of the stove pipe and now we can smell it again. However, it might also be coming from the cat probe hole. I'm pretty sure the door is sealing tight.

Occasionally, the stove will stall and then, after I turn the t-stat all the way up, there's a sort of explosion inside the stove where all at once the flames ignite. When that happens, it blows a big puff of smoke into the room right at the seams between the collar and the chimney. However, there's a leak separate and apart from that too.

At this point, I'm quite frustrated. So much so I'm thinking of shutting the stove down until we can figure out what's going on. We have an infant and I don't want to hurt him. Can a child survive wood smoke? I'm sure. My mom smoked when I was a kid and I'm alive. But it wasn't the best thing to do.

We live in Bellingham, about 2 hours north of Seattle. Overall air quality is excellent.

I notice there's usually some smoke coming from my stove. It's a catalytic stove, a Blaze King Ashford. I wonder sometimes if it should burn more cleanly. Most of the pollution goes up and drifts away, particularly now that the stove pipe has been extended to 26 feet. However, at wet times (like this morning) the smoke will sometimes blow downward into our yard. It's a modern house so the windows should be relatively tight. I don't know how much pollution gets in but the 70% number that I read scared me.

 

[drz1050]

I'm sorry, I didn't read the entirety of the other thread.. but what makes you think a little bit of wood smoke is that bad for you?

I'm not saying go suck on your chimney.. but at the dissipated levels where it becomes just a slight smell.. what's the problem?

Is smoke a carcinogen? Sure. So is the sun. Do you ever sear your steak in a cast iron pan?

Oxygen depravation is a terrible thing, especially for a developing mind in a child. You'd need to have a LOT of smoke in that room before you alter the O2% by a significant amount though.

 

[ailanthus]

That new collar can stink for awhile as the paint cures. Also the backpuffing (explosion) you describe as well as an outside smoke smell indicate that you're not operating the stove properly. With a clean burning stove like the Ashford, there shouldn't be even a whiff of smoke smell outside after it's up to operating temp. I don't have a catalytic stove, but if you describe how you're operating it, someone'll be along to help figure out what's going on.

 

[Swedishchef]

That new collar can stink for awhile as the paint cures. Also the backpuffing (explosion) you describe as well as an outside smoke smell indicate that you're not operating the stove properly

+1

Obviously,there should not be any smoke leaking around the collar. Period. Is your chimney clogged?

It seems you may not be operating it at a high enough temperatures. Try not cutting down the primary air as much.

And I would call BK and speak with customer service.

Andrew

 

[rdust]

The puff back is a draft issue, the smoke is building up in the stove then exploding, the smoke is going to find places to escape. The "leak" is probably also draft related, if the smoke isn't getting pulled from the stove it's going to find the easiest place to exit. How low are you running the stove? Have you tried giving it a little more air?

Modern stoves seal up pretty well but I don't consider them "air tight". I've seen "smoke" generating machines used to find air noise leaks in cars, I wonder if something like this could be placed in the stove and see where the smoke finds it's way out. It worked by filling the car with "smoke" then you looked around the door seals to see where it was escaping from.

 

[branchburner]

You've raised two issues. One, in the title of your thread(s), is that smoke is bad for you. No matter how expert the experts are, there will always be some disagreement over exactly what threshold of exposure is "safe" for either healthy adults or for the very young or very old who are more prone to distress/damage. Probably the reason Bart closed your thread is that because for a properly installed and operated wood stove, it is essentially A NON-ISSUE: there is virtually no smoke in the living space. No smoke = no danger. More smoke = more danger, but a wood stove should not be creating any smoke INSIDE at all.

As for the 70% number, as was pointed out, that is your OVERALL outdoor air quality, not 70% of what goes out your very own chimney. Think about it for a moment: by what mechanism would it be possible for 70% of what was going out your chimney to all be redirected inside, and to return to the interior of your house, rather than be rapidly dispersed and diluted as it left the chimney? It's inconceivable. If that was what occurred, all of us would not only be sick, we'd be dead, and therefore we'd be posting on this site much less frequently than we do.

More logically, if your system produces a lot of smoke (like an inefficient OWB), it is going to go downwind and partly into the house of someone ELSE, and cause THEM distress. But the whole point of high efficiency stoves (like yours) is that the smoke itself is mostly burned, as fuel, leaving particulate emissions very low.

The second issue you bring up is your particular situation, for which you should perhaps start a new thread with a new title so that you might solve the problem. Smoke spillage and backpuffing is unacceptable and results from either poor draft, poor wood, poor operation, or some combination thereof. It's that simple. Fix the problem(s) and any questions on the dangers of wood smoke become moot.

 

[BrotherBart]

You have a back puffing issue. That can be solved with advice from here. Titling it as looking for advice on the respiratory effects of wood smoke just makes a thread that rambles on forever. No medical experts here that I know of.

 

[Jags]

...But I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

Smoke should not be infiltrating your home. Fix that and respiratory ailments from smoke in your home becomes mute.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Parallax, I had a very similar problem with my Progress Hybrid. I was one of the earlier purchasers and was experiencing a smoke smell coming from the rear right corner of the stove top on the loading door side. My wood was OK (21% MC) not great but passable, my flue was brand new, and my house had a slight negative pressure. I posted a message on this site asking for help and got many suggestions, but the smell persisted. I then contacted Woodstock with the problem and they informed me that approx. 10% of the first production run stoves were having this issue and that they were trying to isolate the problem. They were using a very sensitive 'smoke sniffer' machine to try and pinpoint the exact location of the leak. They were also testing the stove design further in various situations of draft and negative house pressure. Several months later they contacted me and said they had found the problem and were working on a fix. A few weeks after that I received a repair kit in the mail with a link to a youtube video demonstration. The problem was with the design of the loading door gasket and the door hinge channel. Once I installed the new gasket system and a block off plate for the hinge channel, the smoke problem was completely solved. Now you would never know I had a wood stove burning in my house. The point is that there probably is a solution for your problem. First try the good suggestions you will get from this site. But also try and get your local dealer involved and most importantly get Blaze King involved. Your issue may be something that only the manufacturer can solve. Mine was. I can really appreciate your concern and frustration over the smoke smell in your home. As others have stated here, there should be NO smoke smell. Every once in a while you might turn your air down to quickly and get a back puff, but that is operator error and easily corrected. Also, trying to reload when there are active flames or smoldering wood will often result in some spillage, but that also is operating error and easily avoided. But a continue smoke smell coming off the stove during normal operations is just plain wrong and must be corrected. Try not to be discouraged and keep working on the problem. With help from here and Blaze King you should be able to solve this. Good luck.

 

[Poindexter]

I agree wholeheartedly with TennDave.

When my Ashford went in the install techs used a single to double adapter between my telescoping DWSP and the enamel top on my Ashford 30. Apparently getting the enamel top back on with screws sticking out of DWSP at the collar was a bit of an issue, at least for my local guys. I am not exactly in the heart of Amish craftmanship country here.

The draft on this stove for me, having run a Phase I non cat under the same pipe last year, is the most finicky I remember in my life. Mine is manageable, and I expected a learning curve with my first cat stove; but I am starting to think there is more going on than just the short stack I ran with no trouble last year.

I am burning my coals down right now anyway. I need to lift the pipe and check the gasket that seals the airdoor to the firebox when the cat is engaged, mine doesn't seem like it is running quite right with the cat engaged since I cleaned the pipe on Friday.

I am going to try to put mine back together without the sw-dw sp adapter.

You might try a small fire in your with the enamel top off to see if you can locate your leak a little better. The top just lifts off, no tools required after you lift the cat probe out. A small fire. Maybe even a small fire with the top off and your DWSP going straight to the stove collar.

Just an idea...

 

[maple1]

I suspect that the title of that other thread (and this one too for that matter) wasn't doing much for pointing out the specific issue you want addressed and opens up the dialogue to all kinds of philosophical discussion. Something more like 'why does my stove smoke?' would likely have worked better.

And on that - what is the moisture content of your wood, and exactly what do you have for a chimney? Then pictures always help.

Unless you really did want to discuss the respiratory aspects of wood smoke inhalation?

 

[Tenn Dave]

I suspect that the title of that other thread (and this one too for that matter) wasn't doing much for pointing out the specific issue you want addressed and opens up the dialogue to all kinds of philosophical discussion. Something more like 'why does my stove smoke?' would likely have worked better.

And on that - what is the moisture content of your wood, and exactly what do you have for a chimney? Then pictures always help.

Unless you really did want to discuss the respiratory aspects of wood smoke inhalation?

Instead of killing the thread, perhaps the moderators could change the title to something like Ashford Smoke Problem? That would make it very clear that someone is asking for help with a smoke issue.

 

[Jags]

Instead of killing the thread, perhaps the moderators could change the title to something like Ashford Smoke Problem? That would make it very clear that someone is asking for help with a smoke issue.

Generally we don't take it upon ourselves to make title changes (peeps get all touchy about that stuff) unless requested. The OP has the ability to change the title, or if he/she needs help, one of us mods would be more than happy to help.

 

[BrotherBart]

The first of the three pages of posts in the thread I closed last night. Just what would anybody suggest other than the title it had for this? Nothing about a stove problem.

"My wife and I are new to wood burning. We have an infant. He was born last summer and this is our first winter with the stove. We've done our best to shield him from smoke, but the stove has produced some smoke in the house. Many of the articles I've read online indicate the burning wood is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, that 70% of the pollution that's vented outside the home gets back in, and that there are many long-term risks (such as cancer) to which young children are most vulnerable.

I'm wondering what the experts around here think. Clearly, people have been burning wood for millennia. But then again, the average lifespan until quite recently was probably around 40."

 

[maple1]

The first of the three pages of posts in the thread I closed last night. Just what would anybody suggest other than the title it had for this? Nothing about a stove problem.

"My wife and I are new to wood burning. We have an infant. He was born last summer and this is our first winter with the stove. We've done our best to shield him from smoke, but the stove has produced some smoke in the house. Many of the articles I've read online indicate the burning wood is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, that 70% of the pollution that's vented outside the home gets back in, and that there are many long-term risks (such as cancer) to which young children are most vulnerable.

I'm wondering what the experts around here think. Clearly, people have been burning wood for millennia. But then again, the average lifespan until quite recently was probably around 40."

Also true.

Don't think you'd find an answer to 'how much wood smoke is safe for my kid' - but would be sure to get lots of dialogue if that's what is being sought, and were were on our way there. None of which would likely be helpful to anything though.

 

[F4jock]

Dead horse. Stop beating it.

If the issue is a stove problem, that we can help with.

If your aim is to discuss the health drawbacks of burning wood or coal may I respectfully suggest you find an environmentalist website and enjoy.

If the issue is "An occasional few whiffs of smoke is gonna kill me and mine." you won't get much sympathy here, and lots of people will suggest you ditch the wood and burn gas or oil.

 

[Parallax]

Just changed the title. Great suggestions. I've been trying to reach the dealer. He's been great in terms of standing behind his work. He's just a little hard to reach, probably because they're real busy this time of year. I want to impress upon him a sense of urgency though because this been going on a while and it's not good for a 6 month old. I feel terrible about having already exposed him to smoke. Will also call Blaze King. Chris (BKVP) has been great. I don't know what we could be doing wrong in terms of technique -- which doesn't mean I'm not screwing up; just that I'm not seeing it. If I run the stove lower, the cat stalls. If I run it higher, there's more smoke. At this point, we're using compressed firelogs because our dry wood supply ran out. The smell isn't quite as bad when I use the Doug Fir in the shed, but it's at around 25% and not putting out as much heat as it would if it were dryer. The firelogs are from a company called Homefire. They sell seconds. The other day I drove over and they placed a huge pallet in the bed of my pickup -- around 1800 pounds (or eight wheelbarrows full when I unloaded) for $150. Seems like good stuff.

 

[Grisu]

Maybe a draft measurement would be in order when you turn up the air and the smoke smell increases. Almost sounds like you have a leak and the draft is not enough to keep the smoke in. You said you see sometimes the smoke in your yard. Are those days worse with the in-house smoke smell? Maybe the negative pressure generated by the stove pulls some of the smoke that goes outside back in. Or do you have an OAK?

I feel terrible about having already exposed him to smoke.

Is that your first child?

 

[bholler]

Run through the whole setup for us top to bottom plase we will be able to help more if you do. And exactly when and where are you getting smoke?

 

[Parallax]

What do you mean by the whole setup? We've got an Ashford 30 in brown enamel (though I'm guessing the finish doesn't matter). There is an OAK. Installation is at the back corner of the home, coming off a one-story section of the home sitting about four feet from a two-story section. The chimney originally ran 22 feet which was shy of the peak of the second story roof. With trees on the other side of the house (we back up against miles of woods -- which around here means Doug Firs, Cedars and Hemlocks that rise 200 or more feet), the smoke tended to get trapped. We have one neighbor, who was getting most of the downwind. So the dealer raised the chimney another four feet, taking it even with the peak of the second story roof. Now the smoke tends to go up almost all the time. Just one or two days, when there's been rain, have I noticed some down drafting into the yard. The neighbor has been appreciative of these efforts.

Even when the stove was first installed, and we were using some nice dry wood I'd picked up from a neighbor who gave up burning, there was a smoky smell in the house. I don't think it was worse when we were using wet wood. If anything, it seems worst when burning the compressed logs. Not sure if it's coming from the probe hole, the stove pipe (possibly at the collar), or elsewhere. I'm stumped as to what's causing what you guys called "backpuffing." To me, it's an internal explosion within the stove.

 

[jatoxico]

I'm stumped as to what's causing what you guys called "backpuffing." To me, it's an internal explosion within the stove.

No cat stove here but mini explosions (whoofing) and cat stalls are primarily due to air starvation are they not?

 

[begreen]

Yes, that and weak draft and sometimes poorly seasoned wood can all contribute to backpuffing. But usually it is too little air. The fire goes out and smolders and a large amount of wood gas accumulates in the stove. My guess is then the thermostat opens and a flame appears that ignites the wood gas.

 

[bholler]

Your chimney setup sounds like it should be ok from your description. Have you tried cracking a window or door to see if that helps the problem?

 

[Parallax]

Could the OAK or the chimney be clogged?

 

[Jags]

To me, it's an internal explosion within the stove.

That is exactly what "backpuffing" is. To much fuel (smoke) with too little oxygen to ignite it. Finally, it will pull in air from wherever it can (even down the stack) and the ignition is akin to a small explosion. Like lighting gas poured onto a bonfire.

ETA - the correction to this condition usually comes in the form of a little more primary air.