Need insert info (was Gotta decide TONIGHT!)

[SculptureOfSound]

Sale ends at the end of the month and tomorrow is the last day this month I'd be able to get to the dealer and place the order. I guess I have all day tomorrow to decide but I've got some major errands so won't have much time to deliberate.

So I've narrowed it down to 2 direct competitors and one oddball. I'll list my perceived pros and cons of each. Sorry for the long post I am just massively stressing out trying to make a final decision. If anyone actually reads through to the end I thank you in advance!

The two direct competitors are the VC Montpelier and Quad Voyageur Grand.

Key points to keep in mind

• Entirely external masonry fireplace
• Fireplace is on FAR wall of a long ranch
• 1700 square feet of space
• 700 sq f is hallway/bath/bed area
• 1000 sq f is family room, dining, kitchen and living room - this is the area I want especially toasty
  
• I live in central WI, winters get very cold. Below 0f for a week at a time or more.
• 8 foot ceilings throughout

VC Montpelier

Pros:

• I need the 3" extension kit for mantle clearance. This should also = more heat as not in the room as not entirely flus and gives me 3 more inches of room to insulate the back of the unit.
• Smaller footprint + 3" extension = R15 roxul on the sides + about R25 on the back of the unit.
• I think this insulation will translate to more heat in the house than the V.Grand, which will have almost no insulation as it just fits in my firebox
• can possibly run an eco fan (the low temp model) on the 3" ledge, I hear it gets to 200 degrees or more
• Outside air intake is on right side near the front - I think I could create a channel from the current outside air vent that feeds in from under the firebox to this

Cons:

• Smaller firebox, only 2.1 vs V. Grand's 2.35
• I don't like the looks as much (and aesthetics are important, if I didn't care about them I'd go with completely different choices. But I want it to look nice and have a huge viewing area)
• Does not seem to be built as well
• No ACC - not a dealbreaker but the ACC seems like a nice convenience feature for reloads
• will it be able to keep up when it's 10 below zero?

Quad Voyageur Grand

Pros:

• Bigger Firebox could mean more heat (maybe, see concerns about insulation)
• I like the looks a fair bit more
• Seems to be built much more solidly
• ACC seems convenient, although conflicting reports of its usefulness.

Cons:

• Just barely fits in my firebox... no room to do anything on the sides (probably not even durock), only 2.5" at most in back of firebox. This worries me as last year my bricks got quite COLD.
• I believe this will mean less actual heat in the room, despite slightly bigger firebox and marginally higher EPA numbers
• Like the looks but do NOT like the very low secondary tube that sits about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the viewing area
• Seems to have more dirty glass issues
• not sure this could keep up when 10 below zero, either?

So there's the basic list of pros and cons of each. Price is almost the same - normally Montepelier is less expensive but with the 3" extension kit (which is a total ripoff, $429 for a 3" cast iron ledge and sides), it's actually about $100 more.

I want a big view of the fire but also want HEAT. On top of my chimney being essentially 100% exterior (no extension into the room at all, it is flush with back of built-in bookcases on either side), the room it is in has 3 external walls and is over a crawlspace. That being said, given the location of the install I don't think I'm going to try for 100% wood heat, I think it will be hard to get good head back to the bedrooms. If the furnace has to kick on, so be it - our monthly gas bills last winter were only $150 or so max.

The Oddball
The oddball competitor is the Travis Large Flush. This actually fits a bit better than the Quad V. Grand but with the options I'd want on it, it's about $2000 more than the above two, and I think it might be a bit too much for our space, especially as I'm thinking heat will only easily flow into the 1000 sq ft of communal space and not so well back to the bedrooms. Then again, I don't think it would *not* be enough. But almost $7000 installed (with the artisan faceplace and custom sized surround options) is more than I'm really comfortable with for a first stove.

Below is a pic of the current fireplace (going to reface it and stain the bookshelves a dark brown), along with a really crappy photoshop mockup of the two units installed

[ATTACl]200669[/ATTACH]

 

[SculptureOfSound]

The looks and everything are subjective, I know. I guess my main concern is the heat. I hear of some people's installs where they say that a decent mid-sized unit like either of the above can barely heat the room it is in. I know a blockoff plate can help, but it seems like insulation makes such a big difference on an external chimney that it's really pushing me towards the Montepelier even though I'd generally rather have the Voyageur Grand if I had a big enough firebox to insulate with it as well... although that low secondary tube in the Grand really bothers me (not sure why but I can't seem to look away from it).


EPA #s for the two units are as follows:

V. Grand
10,700 to 28,600
peak btu/hr 58,600

Montepelier
10,000 to 27,600
peak btu/hr 57,600

Almost identical it seems. So insulation (+ the 3" non-flush install) on the VC should give it a major heat advantage, no?

 

[Ashful]

I don't have any direct experience or really anything specific to say about any of these models. However, I've read enough bad word on VC on this forum to say that any time the question is "VC or something else", I'd buy the "something else". VC's recent history really is that bad, whether measured on product quality, function, or customer service.

 

[Simonkenton]

You are in a rush with an artificial deadline of 2 days, and are seriously considering a Vermont Castings?

You better forget the rush and go to "Plan C." Whatever that is has to be better than a VC.

 

[SculptureOfSound]

I've started a few other threads regarding the Montpelier and owners weighed in with what seemed like honest opinions. Most had no problems except for some blackened glass (usually rectified with better wood) and its inability to heat 2000+ sq.f, which I expected.

I do understand being cautious of a brand with a shaky history but it doesn't seem to apply to their inserts from the ton of digging I've been doing here on this forum for the last couple weeks. I'm not going to rule out what on paper appears to be one of the best options just because I keep hearing "VC is bad" without any indication that the problems mentioned applied to their inserts. From what I've read it was primarily their Everburn stoves that had problems. Further, they are now owned by HHT, who also owns Quadrafire, so I feel like I'd likely get the same level of actual warranty coverage (or not) from either.

I'm open to hearing what the more recent issues are - but sometimes it seems like everyone just says "Stay away from VC" because that's what they've heard. You continue that for a few years and there might not be anymore problems, but that's still what everyone new to the forum reads and so the negative perception persists. Maybe I'm wrong - like I said, willing to hear out the more recent issues.

 

[SculptureOfSound]

I don't have any direct experience or really anything specific to say about any of these models. However, I've read enough bad word on VC on this forum to say that any time the question is "VC or something else", I'd buy the "something else". VC's recent history really is that bad, whether measured on product quality, function, or customer service.

I know they had some problems in their history, but I haven't heard of much that could be considered recent. Do you know what the recent issues have been?

 

[begreen]

VC is now under some solid financing and management with a huge parent corporation. The hope is that they are turning things around, but it will take time to tell. If in doubt, go with the Quad.

 

[Corey]

I have virtually that same layout, just delete the 'bath' out of the middle of the living room. With the space somewhat broken up like that, your are going to need a fan on the insert to move a lot of air. Radiant heat will not work, it is line of sight only and even at that, radiant energy drops off with the inverse square of distance (ie very fast!). Also an eco fan won't come close to moving enough air... I have one for looks / conversation piece... for air movement...just no.

So your options are:

1) Buy the stove with the biggest blower / air movement. This somewhat negates the amount of 'stick out' and/or any reason to add insulation.

2) Buy the stove you like the looks / layout of best and add a big blower.

Either way, best wishes for a warm winter!

PS - that low secondary tube is sort of a bummer. One one hand, I will likely look super cool with all the flames shooting out... I actually wish I had a bit BETTER view of my secondaries. On the other hand, under proper burning, it should get a coat of light gray / almost white ash, so it would likely stick out even MORE than the pic.

 

[SculptureOfSound]

I have virtually that same layout, just delete the 'bath' out of the middle of the living room. With the space somewhat broken up like that, your are going to need a fan on the insert to move a lot of air. Radiant heat will not work, it is line of sight only and even at that, radiant energy drops off with the inverse square of distance (ie very fast!). Also an eco fan won't come close to moving enough air... I have one for looks / conversation piece... for air movement...just no.

So your options are:

1) Buy the stove with the biggest blower / air movement. This somewhat negates the amount of 'stick out' and/or any reason to add insulation.

2) Buy the stove you like the looks / layout of best and add a big blower.

Either way, best wishes for a warm winter!

PS - that low secondary tube is sort of a bummer. One one hand, I will likely look super cool with all the flames shooting out... I actually wish I had a bit BETTER view of my secondaries. On the other hand, under proper burning, it should get a coat of light gray / almost white ash, so it would likely stick out even MORE than the pic.

Good to know on the eco fan. I was thinking it could be nice to have though when say, watching movies in that room if we wanted it to be really quiet but still have some hot air blowing (for that room only, really).

As for air movement, I'm thinking a fan at the bedroom hallway pointed towards the room should help. Realistically, if we only heat the family room, dining room, kitchen and living room I'd be ok with that. As mentioned that's about 1000sf so should be doable w/ either unit.

Regarding the insulation and extension... I agree the radiant heat won't be that much, and definitely will not move around on its own, I'm thinking that anything I can do to keep heat from going into the masonry is going to make a noticeable difference in actual total heat output into the room. That's what I'm hoping, at least. In theory, if you had a perfectly insulated firebox, with all of the heat "trapped" in there eventually getting blown out by the fans (and increasing the output temp of the fan at any given time), you'd be getting as much heat as a free-standing wood stove. Actually, there's another thread right now that talks about how a fan can actually increase the efficiency of a wood stove, so a well insulated insert should behave similarly.

That's my theory anyhow... would love to be proven right or wrong!

 

[begreen]

Curious if in your search you checked the Hampton HI300, PE Neo 2.5 and Enviro Boston 1700 inserts for fit?

If the insert can't heat the home at -10F that may still be ok. It's not a bad thing to have the heat cycle once an hour at that low temp. The gas bills are low and the furnace may help avoid pipe freeze-ups, especially if there is a basement.

 

[Ashful]

I have virtually that same layout, just delete the 'bath' out of the middle of the living room. With the space somewhat broken up like that, your are going to need a fan on the insert to move a lot of air. Radiant heat will not work, it is line of sight only and even at that, radiant energy drops off with the inverse square of distance (ie very fast!).

I won't disagree with your conclusion, but your reasoning behind it is a little flawed. Yes, radiant intensity falls off with distance squared, but normal surface area upon which it is incident is increasing by the same distance squared. In the end, there is no net energy difference, only a heat flux (distribution density) difference. So, distance to incident objects is not a factor, when deciding the pros/cons of radiant heating.

The broken up space is the dominant factor, here. Much more important would be the quality of the objects upon which the radiant energy is directed. If un-insulated masonry (such as putting a radiant stove inside a large fireplace), you are going to have very poor performance. DAMHIKT.

 

[brenndatomu]

on the eco fan. I was thinking it could be nice to have though when say, watching movies in that room if we wanted it to be really quiet but still have some hot air blowing

You apparently need to budget some money for a larger/better surround sound system too!
Good luck with your stove choice...I'm a cheapskate so you are working way above my price range (read: no meaningful input here)

 

[SculptureOfSound]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I am NOT deciding tonight - the hell with the sale. I feel like I am making a compromise with both of these units and neither just feels "right" and that is NOT the feeling I want when I'm about to spend 5 grand on something.

Initially I ruled it out because I was deadset on flushmount, but after loading, unloading and stacking 4.5 full cords of wood today (got it for super cheap, $135 total) I realized I really want efficiency an to maximize the heat I get out of the wood. So, all of that said, I'm really considering the BK Ashford 25. Going to do some research on it, but I really think it is the one. It will let me insulate even more than the Montpelier, it's low burn ability will let me use it in the shoulder seasons, and BK customer service seems to be great from what I've seen on this board. The only thing I'm concerned about is the flame show - how different is it without the secondary tubes, and do you get a lot less flames or "flame time" as a result? Going to research and maybe start a new thread on it.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

 

[begreen]

The BK could be a good option. Their insert is thermostatically regulated. Check with them about adding a lot of insulation around the insert to verify it's ok. Also how tall will the liner be on this insert?

No need for a new thread, you have all the info already here. I'll change the title to be less specific.

 

[SculptureOfSound]

Thanks begreen.

Going to extend our chimney a bit and get a 15 or 16 foot total (currently only 13' tall). I know that may not be optimal for super low burns... hoping there's something else I could do to help draft but not sure what, outside of an insulated liner which is a definite.

 

[begreen]

Thanks begreen.

Going to extend our chimney a bit and get a 15 or 16 foot total (currently only 13' tall). I know that may not be optimal for super low burns... hoping there's something else I could do to help draft but not sure what, outside of an insulated liner which is a definite.

With 15-16' of insulated liner you should be ok.

 

[jetsam]

My most important piece of advice is to switch dealers before buying. Anyone who sends you out the door with a "BUY RIGHT NOW OR OUR PRICES ARE GOING UP" is a scumbucket- and what kind of stove dealer discounts their regular prices at the height of new-stove season? The kind that feels confident that you do not know what their regular prices are!

The BK Princess insert is a fantastic heater.

You are going to have issues heating those back bedrooms with any wood stove.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I am NOT deciding tonight - the hell with the sale. I feel like I am making a compromise with both of these units and neither just feels "right" and that is NOT the feeling I want when I'm about to spend 5 grand on something.

Good decision. I didn't even want to comment on a "gotta decide tonight" thread! I'm the type of person that researches major purchases over a multi-month period to insure the product meets my needs and I'm happy with the result. Just about everything that costs over $100-$200 fits this category with exceptions for things I'm able to try on in a store like boots, jackets, etc.

I realized I really want efficiency an to maximize the heat I get out of the wood. So, all of that said, I'm really considering the BK Ashford 25. Going to do some research on it, but I really think it is the one. It will let me insulate even more than the Montpelier, it's low burn ability will let me use it in the shoulder seasons, and BK customer service seems to be great from what I've seen on this board. The only thing I'm concerned about is the flame show - how different is it without the secondary tubes, and do you get a lot less flames or "flame time" as a result? Going to research and maybe start a new thread on it.

"Flame time" is dependent primarily on burn rate. A secondary burn stove will give a little better flame show at low burn rates because they burn the gases in the firebox instead of in the cat. But I was surprised at the amount of secondary burning happening inside my Chinook 30 after turning it down to a moderately low setting, not sure if the 25's are the same in this regard or not. You can always turn the cat stove up a little bit if you want to watch more flames. And if it's cold enough out to be burning your cat stove at med to high rates, there will be flames. I love watching flames and staring into fires but, if you heat with wood, there will be plenty of time to do that regardless of whether you have secondary burn or cat. Staring into flames is not the kind of activity a well-adjusted person wants to do for hours on end!

The windows on the BK 25's looks really large to my eye. While this undoubtedly increases radiant heat output, it also makes it harder to maintain clean glass if you're burning really slow all the time. So there are trade-offs to getting more from less work putting up your wood. You need to decide whether you will be using the appliance more for ambiance or more as a practical source of heat with the added benefit of ambiance. Because of their versatility, the BK 25's can do both well but if your answer is "primarily ambiance" you have a wider range of contenders to choose from.

 

[begreen]

Have you resplit some of the 4.5 cords of wood and checked the inside of the wood for moisture? Dry wood is going to be important to getting the best heating performance.

 

[brenndatomu]

Which is the stove that has tubes and a cat?

 

[SculptureOfSound]

My most important piece of advice is to switch dealers before buying. Anyone who sends you out the door with a "BUY RIGHT NOW OR OUR PRICES ARE GOING UP" is a scumbucket- and what kind of stove dealer discounts their regular prices at the height of new-stove season? The kind that feels confident that you do not know what their regular prices are!

The BK Princess insert is a fantastic heater.

You are going to have issues heating those back bedrooms with any wood stove.

This was actually a $300 manufacturer coupon from Hearth And Home, so it would have applied to either the Quadrafire or Montepelier I was considering. Not a dealer offered discount - they haven't rushed me at all; have been great actually. Went in to get a quote on the Ashford 25 today and we talked about all kinds of things for an hour and a half, heat loss to masonry, what to do about my short chimney, sports cars, you name it.

And WoodyIsGoody, I've actually been researching for about a month and a half now, really heavily for the last 2-3 weeks. Originally I had aesthetics at #1 priority, but after getting more wood in order I realized that while it's a LOT of work (well, I hauled and stacked 4.5 cords of wood by myself today, all as 4' logs, UGH!) I do really love it, but also want to get the most "reward" for that work in the form of heat. Yet, given the location of our fireplace and the ability to see it from the dining room, kitchen, and heck, even from the bedroom hallway, I DO want the unit to look nice and have a big glass view.

So priorities have shifted a bit the more I thought about this and the more I prepped - aesthetics are still important but I want to get great performance, too. That is hampered by an external masonry fireplace that doesn't stick into the room at all, and doing some rough calculations I estimated that 2-3k BTU per hour could be lost to the masonry, aka about 10% of heat produced at a high output. Not good! This is what made me re-consider the Montpelier (had written it off originally due to the "VC is bad" sentiment around here). It's smaller size would let me heavily insulate my firebox. But then the firebox was smaller than the other main contender, the V. Grand. 2.1 vs 2.35 cu ft, not much difference but everyone says go as big as you can, right?

Lots of other nice units out there, like the ones you mentioned Begreen, but the HI300, Pi Neo and Enviro all have much smaller viewing areas and that's not an area I want to compromise on. Also, I really LOVE this dealer and they are about 5 mins from my house, and they only deal Lopi, BK, VC, Quad and Hearthstone. Seems a good dealer is such an important part of the equation so I really wanted to stick with them. Of course if the "perfect insert" was from a brand they didn't carry, I would go elsewhere. Just hoped I wouldn't have to.

I had originally written off the Ashford 25 as it is not flushmount and it's not my favorite looker, but I don't think it looks bad at all and as I slowly began to appreciate function as much as form, it suddenly started to look better to me. It has a lot of features that the others I was considering didn't, besides the ability to burn low, it has the ability to burn N/S and to be installed with no mantle height adjustments when using the shield. Also, I wanted to reface my fireplace and was planning to just put stone over my current brick... this wouldn't have been possible w/ the other units, I would have had to remove the brick then reface, as my deep lintel would not have worked with the unit being pulled forward the 3" or so of the add'l stone. The Ashford 25 will accommodate this no problem due to its relatively low height, and deep and angled flue collar, which means even less of it will sit in my original firebox which means more room for insulation and better heat retention.

This unit doesn't feel like a compromise anymore. It feels right! And good to know about the flame time. Like you said, it's not necessary that they be there for hours and hours, and I suppose one can always add more wood and turn up the air if you suddenly wanted more flames (company coming over or something).

My last concern is just if a 15 or 16' chimney is going to really hamper my low burns?

 

[SculptureOfSound]

Have you resplit some of the 4.5 cords of wood and checked the inside of the wood for moisture? Dry wood is going to be important to getting the best heating performance.

Not yet. Just stacked the 4' logs today. Will be cutting and splitting another day. I don't plan on burning any of this stuff this year, just getting a heads up on the next few years. Couldn't pass up the deal as it was super cheap.

 

[begreen]

Great. It's good to get ahead. What will you be burning this year?

 

[SculptureOfSound]

Great. It's good to get ahead. What will you be burning this year?

I'm not sure yet. I've got about 3/4 cord of dry pine - that's all that I have that is dry. I'll probably buy a cord from my dealer - their wood is legitimately dry - I watched them split some kindling to start a demonstration fire and it sounded and behaved like 20% or less wood does. It's overpriced at about $300 a cord but better than nothing.

 

[Ashful]

As a two seasons' owner of two Ashford 30's (I guess I have four seasons' equivalent experience?), who burned other stoves before the Ashfords, and open fireplaces for decades before that... I think you're making the right choice. I really know relatively little about the BK inserts, but if they perform anywhere near as well as the stoves, I couldn't see going any other way.

Yes, a short chimney will limit how far you can turn the stove down in warm weather, maybe limiting you to the minimum burn rate of other stoves, when you want to turn it down most. Everything is a compromise, but I wouldn't let this be a deciding factor, you can still turn it way down when the temps drop to 40F and lower. It's not like a BK has to be run higher than other stoves in warm weather, you only notice the loss of range because you had it when it was cooler outside.

The thing that has me so enamoured with my BK's is that they can be set to reliably and consistently burn to whatever time interval I need, based on my work schedule. I marked the location on the dials for consistent 12 and 24 hour burns, and they pretty much nail those burn times every day all winter, despite changing weather. This allows me to load the stoves on my schedule, not theirs.

When the temps dip real low, and the house needs more heat, I have the choice to turn them up, or keep them on my schedule and let the furnace pick up the difference in rate.

The Ashford 30's have a good fire view, and cleaner glass than I see reported for the older models (eg. King, Princess). I can't speak for the Ashford 25, in this regard, but I was pleasantly surprised by the 30's. As with all BK's, if you want better flame show while you're sitting by the TV on a Friday night, just turn up the dial a bit. If you want the low heat of a black box, just turn it down a bit. It's your choice.

I run one of my stoves on a chimney that must be about 15 feet (I honestly forget, it might be less), and the other on 30 feet. I can run the one on the taller pipe lower than the one on the shorter pipe, but I can run either lower than any tube stove ever will.