Needing help... Chimney Inspection & Wood Insert Questions

[SpartyOn0409]

Hello all... I am new to the forum and fairly new to fireplaces / chimneys etc. I am typically a DIY person so I am looking for some advice and will give as much background as possible to help you all understand what I've had done and what I am looking to do etc. I'm sorry as this is going to be pretty long.

Back in 2014 after moving into a home with my wife that she previously owned she inquired about being able to use the fireplace in our house (built in 1982). When she purchased the home there were some gas logs in the fireplace with a copper line making it look as though it were hooked up, however they were not, I believe they were in there simply for looks. So I removed the gas logs and started looking into how we could start using the fireplace. The fireplace had a brick bottom and metal walls with fireplace doors installed. The brick had been dry walled over and the drywall came up directly to the edge of the firebox. At the time the fireplace doors were installed so that they actually pulled up against the drywall. (I have no idea if the drywall is a special type used specifically for fireplaces or if that even exists and if so, how can I tell?) Anyway, lots of things just didn't seem right so I had called a somewhat local chimney sweep/inspector that I found by searching on the CSIA.ORG website to come out and do a sweep and inspection (I say local because the closest services are 45+ min from us). He sent one of his guys out to do the sweep and inspection and we got a good report back signing off saying that the fireplace was good to be used.

However, I was still leery of using the fireplace as the inspector said nothing about the drywall covering the brick and also said nothing about it coming up to the edge of the firebox. I was also leery because the previous owner of the house is the one that had done the remodeling and I'm leery to trust everything he has done due to seeing the results of some of his work I've seen first hand. I questioned if it was even approved by the local building inspector so then I called out the Iocal building inspector. After taking a look, even though the chimney inspector signed off on the fireplace, the local building inspector put quite a bit of doubt back into my mind about using the fireplace. He said at a minimum we needed to cut the drywall back so that the fireplace doors pulled up against the brick instead of pulling up against the drywall but even then he said he'd be leery of using the fireplace as it stood. He went on to tell me that he'd seen a similar fireplace burn 1/3 of a house down a month before due to a spark getting up in a wall of a house that was of similar age. That scared us enough to not use the fireplace that winter.

Last year I then called the chimney sweep/inspector and talked to him about my concerns and he agreed to come out and take a look at the fireplace and chimney again. He came out and after taking a quick look he told us he wouldn't recommend using the fireplace due to some warping of the existing metal firebox. This obviously raised lots of questions for me as a guy of his signed off on it a year prior and nothing had changed. However, I started some discussions with him about our options going forward. We had a few conversations about how to go forward to get the fireplace in a usable condition again but soon after we started those discussions the guy passed unexpectedly due to a heart attack. So here I am still in search of what to do.

As it is now, we have our fireplace that has a brick bottom and metal walls (that have some warping) with fireplace doors installed that pull up to the brick and drywall that comes directly up against the edge of the fireplace doors.

My wife and I have discussed installing a wood burning insert with a fan to give us heating in our basement where the fireplace is located. There is only baseboard heating down there that we try to keep off due to the cost of heating associated with it. By installing a wood burning fireplace we can avoid having to install a propane tank (which she is not too fond of having, due to it being an eye sore). She also wants something that the flame can been seen so that the ambiance of a fireplace is still present, and most importantly to me, with a blower we can heat the lower level of our house, let the heat rise, and we can cut our heating costs. We had come across the Osburn Matrix (Model OB02021) which she loved, but its pretty pricey.

So into the questions...
1) Is there a reliable chimney sweep / inspector in my area (zip 24382) that anybody knows of? I've contacted Blacksburg Chimney Services but all of their quotes seem VERY high.

2) What would I have to do to the existing fireplace to make it safe to use without an insert?

3) Are there other options out there that look similar to the Osburn Matrix (OB02021) from those of you that know the industry better that may be more affordable?

I don't have pictures right now but I can send some later.

Thank you to anybody in advance that can help me out.

 

[jatoxico]

Sounds like you have a zero clearance fireplace. Some of these (few) can be fitted w/ an insert. For starters and so other more knowledgeable folks can assist, see if you can find a plate or other identifying info on the existing unit. Short of that maybe a picture. Also what is the chimney made of? Brick or does the chimney run in a chase?

 

[Van]

I perhaps have a similar situation as you.
My house was built in the late 70's and the developer was building chimneys around a metal firebox.
Here is a diagram similar to the unit they installed.
These kits saved the builders money as it did not require them to build a time consuming masonry fireplace


And a picture of the actual fireplace showing the ash drain, the brickwork and the rusted out metal fireplace.



I am a DIY too and really enjoyed the project. Finished it last month.
I had to cut a hole through the top of the metal fireplace and install a stainless steel chimney liner connecting it to
my Pacific Energy Insert stove.
Here is the stove installed before adding the metal surround.



The project was not as hard as the local chimney sweep led me to believe... of course!
But I studied well to make sure that I was following all specs and building codes.
I got a lot of help from the people on this forum and could not have done it without them.
I can give you more info on the project if you want.

Here it is putting out more heat than I need!

http://www.smaria.org/Stove_Firing.mp4

 

[SpartyOn0409]

Thanks for the info so far guys... I am planning on posting some pictures tonight. Some things that have me stumped are the fact that it doesn't appear to have an ash dump / ash pit or clean out door anywhere and there is also no hearth.

JATOXICO... it's a brick/masonry chimney that runs on the outside of our house; you're also correct in that it could be an older zero clearance wood burning fireplace. One piece of info I left out earlier is that in my research I had come across lead me to believe that it could have been a heatilator/heatform possibly. Reason being is it appeared that there was an outlet near the chimney that now has a plate over it; making me think it used to be a switch for a fan. However, there are no tubes in the flue and I can't see if there were any inlets or outlets for airflow as the drywall would be covering them. However, heatilator/heatform fireplaces were zero clearance from the research I've done as well, unfortunately I don't know what has been covered up with drywall.

VAN... Thanks for sharing your project, your results look great and I'm glad you're enjoying it! I will let you know if I need more info.

 

[woodhog73]

I'm not a pro or a sweep but I'll add a couple thoughts. There are a few good professional sweeps on this forum that will hopefully add some thought

Your set up sounds similar to mine. A full masonry ( cement block) chimney with metal fire box inside. From what I gather the metal fire box replaced traditional brick firebox construction because it was easier and cheaper than having someone construct a masonry firebox with all the fancy angles etc. So in my case it's a regular full masonry chimney with a metal fire box. As such I had no issues putting a wood burning insert in. A portion of the metal fire box had to be cut to allow the metal flex liner to fit. My metal firebox was in poor condition as well. Rusted and warped a little and overall not in good condition to burn as an open fireplace. But my insert fit in fine and does a great job heating my house

Sounds like your metal fire box is in poor condition from your description. After 30 plus years of fires and heat cycles I suppose it's hard on the metal. If it's warped and rusted I agree it doesn't sound too safe.

Because you have a full masonry chimney I'm thinking you do not have a zero clearance. I could be wrong just a guess but pictures will help. My understanding and I could be wrong but the " heat form" you mentioned was the name of the metal firebox that builders purchased to build their masonry fireplaces around. Probably very popular in the 1970s ? That in and of itself doesn't make it a zero clearance fireplace. Those metal heat form fire boxes have probably been used in all types of different looking fireplaces and hearths. Some probably had been constructed with hollow cavities above and fans to get heat out and perhaps others were simply installed in simple cement block fire places. However it's strange that someone dry walled all the way up to the fire place opening and over the bricks. I'm guessing they didn't like the look of the bricks and hearth ?

My guess is you will have to remove the drywall no matter what if you intend to burn an open fire or install an insert. With mine I needed a certain amount of distance to combustibles so if there was drywall that close to the insert it would not have been ok.

Post some pics and hopefully one of the pros who actually install stoves and sweep chimneys for a living can add input and give advice

 

[Van]

Sparty,

Attached are the installation instructions for the firebox that I have.

If indeed you have a firebox from this company or perhaps Heatilator this will help you to understand what to look for on yours.
But there are many different types.
Mine had no pipes but simply a cavity space around the metal firebox in the chimney with brick laid vent openings to allow air to circulate into and out of that cavity. The design did not work and only leaked cold air into the room. I was looking for an excuse to change as it had really bad draft and wasted so much wood heat.

http://www.smaria.org/VestalAire_Chimney.pdf

 

[jatoxico]

it's a brick/masonry chimney that runs on the outside of our house; you're also correct in that it could be an older zero clearance wood burning fireplace. One piece of info I left out earlier is that in my research I had come across lead me to believe that it could have been a heatilator/heatform possibly.

Hopefully one of the pros will chime in but if it's a heatilator you may be in luck. Any new stove will need a liner but running one in a brick chimney through a heatilator can be done. It's the zero clearance type fireplace with zero clearance venting that's less adaptable.

 

[SpartyOn0409]

Well here are the pics. The firebox may not be in as bad of shape as you all had thought but there is some warping. I figured there is no reason to take a picture of the chimney outside running up the side of my house but if it's needed I can provide that as well. You can see in the first picture the plate covering an electrical connection in the wall on the right hand side. I figured that was a switch at one point to give power to a blower. As you can see no hearth and no ash dump as I noted before.

 

[SpartyOn0409]

So when I previously said no hearth I guess I was referring to what is called a raised hearth (again I am pretty new to all this stuff but feel like I'm going to be well informed here pretty soon). Would what I have be considered a flat hearth?

Also, as another side note, it doesn't appear that the drywall is attached real well to the brick behind.

 

[jatoxico]

To me that thing is begging to have a free standing stove in front of it. I can see you're already working in that room. Cut the sheet rock back, put down a hearth w/ proper r value and put in rear venting stove of your choice. What's the current floor made of, on concrete or tile over wood?

Of course everything depends on getting the OK from a pro but that looks like a heatliator and clay tile in the existing flue to me. How big the flue is will determine how easy it is to get a liner down. Six inch stainless liner is most common.

 

[begreen]

To locate certified sweeps in your area go to www.csia.org and type in your zipcode.
If you folks really prefer a flush insert then the Matrix is a nice one. There are also the Regency Alterra and Pacific Energy Neo series that might be worth checking out if they fit.

 

[SpartyOn0409]

JATOXICO..... I brought the idea up to the wife about a freestanding stove in the past and she doesn't want that either, hence the reason we ended up originally looking at the Matrix, which is VERY NICE looking, but also quite pricey. The current floor I believe is tile on cement. Also the flue is approx 12" x 12" outside at the top but it looks smaller at the bottom. Is it common for them to reduce in size? I do need to see how big that opening is thought as it could become a big challenge to get a liner through it.

BEGREEN..... As I stated in the first e-mail I've used the CSIA website to find our closest guy who is 45 min away and I'm not super fond of him; however the next folks are over an hour away (70 miles). Thanks for the other options I will check them out.

 

[begreen]

I saw 3 folks listed on the CSIA site when I entered your zip. Said all were 45 min away in Newport.

 

[SpartyOn0409]

They're all the same company, just 3 different folks that are certified... I've actually had him out to check out the fireplace already and he's given me a quote on installing an insert of my choice. I may just have unrealistic cost expectations but wouldn't expect it to cost 4 times more to have someone else do it than to do it myself; obviously folks are in the business to make money to make a living so I expect some margin but 400% seems a bit excessive in my mind.

 

[begreen]

If you are reasonably handy with tools, measure carefully and follow directions well, then maybe DIY is your best bet. What was their quoted cost of installation and what did the quote include?

 

[SpartyOn0409]

I'm pretty handy and def good with tools and being detail oriented as I'm an engineer (but the type that likes to be hands on and is hands on instead of sitting at a desk). I just have no experience with anything like this but feel very capable of being able to do this.

He quoted me $3250 + the cost of the insert that I buy. The cost includes his material cost for the liner which he stated he charges $100/ft (he says it's the going rate in this area) which is 25' double wall 304 liner insulated with 1/2" wrap installed + the labor to install which includes cutting out some material of the firebox in the damper area, and his travel costs since he's 45-60 min away

 

[SpartyOn0409]

For those of you in the business is that a typical cost? I just find it hard to believe paying $100/ft for material when I can buy it for $25-$35/ft myself

 

[begreen]

It's a bit high, but there are factors that can raise the cost like roof pitch and chimney access, damper cutting, obstructions in the flue, block-off plate, etc.. He may be using a premium brand of heavy duty liner like Ventis. That comes in at a higher price. The price per foot includes the labor and 2hr. travel time. Have you burned since the chimney was cleaned? I'm wondering if his price included that too?

You can reduce costs a lot by doing it yourself. There are good videos on normal liner installations and folks here can answer questions that come up. The best thing is to not rush it and ask questions if unexpected issues show up. If you can get a buddy to work with you that will help a lot (save the beer till done.)

What is the ID of the existing chimney tile?

 

[yooper08]

I'm not a pro, but that doesn't look like a zero clearance fireplace to me. Looks similar to what I just had cut out this morning, which was a heatilator type fireplace. Can you tap on the drywall to see if you can get 4 spots that sound like there's no brick behind it? You'd find two near the bottom ( the bottom of the vent opening may almost be level with the bottom of the firebox) and two towards the top (maybe 2' down from the ceiling straight up from the two on the bottom). You won't always find tubes in the firebox (mine didn't either).

I had a few quotes for mine, but I had bought all of the necessary components on my own (originally thought about DIY approach). The most expensive was $2600+, the cheapest was $975, all by certified sweeps. And each had a different take on various requirements, so I suggest getting a good understanding of your current state and doing some homework, perhaps call that inspector back and ask what he's going to be looking for. I ended up going with one in the middle, final cost should be about $1400 + insert, flue, etc. Obviously labor rates will differ by location.

Hope that helps some.

 

[chimneyED]

I would do it for about the same. But Id say labor rates are higher here in new jersey, as everything is! It will take two people a good half day, but you never know so always plan on whole day and make sure everything is correct. Def whole day including their drive time. Insurance is extremely expensive for sweeps in NJ

 

[gbow1]

I was able to get the Matrix for $2,100 last year in CA, but had to drive 2 hours to the wholesale distributor and get it (it weighs about 484 lbs. so be prepared for a fight getting it into the house). 25' SS 6" round flex pipe will cost you around $350 for the lower end stuff, 1/2" insulation kit around $270. You'll need to have your current masonry chimney swept (or sweep it yourself) and drop a video-cam down to check the condition of the current flue before you get too committed to the project.
From your pictures - I would be most concerned about the red overlay you have over the brick. Is that non-combustible? If it's plastered sheetrock I don't think that flys? (Somone here would know for sure). Same deal with what looks like wood baseboard trim down on the floor under the fireplace, that can't be there for any insert I am aware of...log drops on the floor catches the trim on fire....16" clearance needed in front.

 

[SpartyOn0409]

Sorry guys I've been absent from here for a few days...

BEGREEN: The roof pitch is 4:12 and the chimney is easily accessible running up the outside of the house and you can get on the roof from our back deck so accessibility is easy. He did say he would have to do some cutting in the damper area, the flue is pretty clean without obstructions and at the top is approx 11-7/8" x 12-1/2" outside & approx 1" thick (so 9-7/8" x 10-1/2" inside) but doesn't appear that large when looking up through the damper. Is it common for the flue to "throat down"? He did tell me that "No tile breaking would be necessary" so I assume he thinks getting a liner in is no issue other than doing the cutting in the damper area. There was no talk of a block-off plate but everything I've read says to install one. I don't think he using premium products because he told me on the phone that "There is no pre-insulated liners out there" when I had talked to him about the pre-insulated DuraLiner (which I costed out at around $850); now I know there is also another product that is pre-insulated made by Ventis. There has been nothing burned in the fireplace since at least 2009. I'm definitely leaning towards a DIY install or calling and seeing if he would do the install if I provided the materials.

YOOPER08: The drywall isn't attached very well and although I haven't tried to find the 4 inlet/outlet areas I would expect are covered somewhere behind there I will try and see. Thanks as well for the other input; as you can tell I'm definitely in the stage of trying to figure out what I've got and what is needed to put an insert in.

CHIMNEYED: Thanks for your input.

GBOW1: That red overlay is drywall that has been installed over the brick chimney and and painted. I also had major concerns with it, which is why I was surprised the first sweep that was out signed off on everything without concern and then called the local building inspector out and yes that is wood baseboard.

 

[SpartyOn0409]

I went and checked out a used wood burning insert last night and now I'm looking for some additional advice.

1) I couldn't find any info on the insert so I have no idea how old it may be, how efficient it may be, or if there is anything I should be concerned with if I were to buy it.

2) The current opening in my fireplace is 35" W x 23" H x 22" D. This insert is 32" W x 25" H x 22" D (the depth is adjustable though if I need to make any sort of adjustments). Could I remove the current brick in the bottom of my fireplace to make room for the insert or move the lintel up and if so is one recommended over the other?

Below are some pictures of the insert.

 

[rwhite]

Very old and looks past the end of useful life. It's designed to be a slammer which is not code. I would pass

 

[SpartyOn0409]

Never heard of a slammer until now... did a quick search and read some... if I were to find a liner sized correctly would that make it any safer?