New Energy Bill still working it's way through

[webbie]

A good overview of the situation here:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070805/D8QQNQM00.html

The GOP wants pork for oil and gar producers, and Bush has said he will veto the bill if it makes it to his desk. If Bush follows through on his promise, that means big Hummers will still be deductible and billions of tax credits will go to the oil companies....

"The House passed the tax provisions by a vote of 221-189. Earlier it had approved, 241-172, a companion energy package aimed at boosting energy efficiency and expanding use of biofuels, wind power and other renewable energy sources."

If you check into both of those votes, you will see that the republicans are pretty solid against both, except for a VERY few.

The bill also has conservation measures as part of it, another area where the current administration has made it clear they have no interest in. Dick Cheney expressed it this way:
""Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue but it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy." '

One of the best quotes from the article:
"There's a war going on against energy from fossil fuels," said Rep. Ralph Hall, R-Texas. "I can't understand the pure venom felt against the oil and gas industry."

Well, I'd say Mr. Hall has it quite right. There are a number of WARS going on worldwide because of our desire for energy from fossil fuels!

Oh, and he is from Texas! No plot there!

I'd like to think the American public is ready to change, but my cynical side tells me that behind closed doors people long for $1. gas and electric/gas bills under $100 a month.

 

[BrotherBart]

I'd like to think the American public is ready to change, but my cynical side tells me that behind closed doors people long for $1. gas and electric/gas bills under $100 a month.

Whoa! Let's get real here. Behind closed doors nothing. I would long for buck a gallon gas from second base of Yankee Stadium during a Billy Graham revival.

Already have the electric under a Franklin for eight months of the year. Actually more than that since the co-op is giving back money they overcharged in prior years as monthly rebates.

 

[elkimmeg]

Really who cares about this bill it has little about nothing. increasing 5% more ethanol while we have to import most of what we are using at 10%

Too many discussions here where the energy to produce ethanol is about the energy released You call this a reform or a step forward? Or we eliminate part of our staple food to produce it or Bazil clears nore of the rain forest to produce it.

If this bill is so earth shattering then why did Olbama and Hillary not vote for it? Are they anti energy conservation?

second no MPG inprovements in 22 years and again this bill does not address them. Note I did not see and money apprioated to implement provisions of this bill?

Hate to remind posters it a little about nothing so insignificant Olbama and hilliary did not votr

 

[karl]

In the immortal words of Dennis Miller. "If gas goes over a buck and quarter an gallon. We should be bombing the chit out of somebody."

In all seriousness, I believe in conservation. I believe that the government shouldn't use the tax code for social engineering, but since they do. They should prod us into conserving. Cheny is right. Conservation isn't the answer, but it is the right thing to do and it will help. Screw the CAFE standard put a weight limit on cars and suvs. I read an article in Road and Track that compared these retro cars to the their originals. Cars today are fat. Seriously fat. They compared the VW Bug, the Mustang, and a few more. Do you realize the average SUV weighs more than the heaviest Caddies of the 50's, 60s, or 70's. They also did some dreaming and came up with the idea of what would the car do if you took the old one and put the new engine in it. That was cool. Great gas mileage and really, really fast, when you consider the 200 and some horespower in a 1500 pound beetle.

 

[Sandor]

I have come to the conclusion that complex problems cannot be solved with our style of government, and the energy issue is indeed a complex problem.

Everyone needs to come up with a plan moving forward that is designed around taking care of yourself, and not depending on the govt to bail you out. Hell, its financially insolvent anyway.

Whats a plan look like? Anything that makes you less reliant on cheap (and available) energy, and anything that makes you less reliant on govt in times of crisis, or the govt funding your retirement and healthcare in the future.

Researching financial and energy issues in depth will simply depress you. I am preparing, but at the same time partying like a mad man!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Ahh yes, Ethanol...

There's nothing quite like $5/gallon milk.

Matt

 

[elkimmeg]

Ahh yes, Ethanol...

There's nothing quite like $5/gallon milk.

Matt

Good example feed your self or your car and now 15% only uses more staple crop

 

[webbie]

I wonder if the problem is the style of government or the electorate!

It has always been said that you don't want to see laws or sausage made......BUT, to dismiss a bill like this off the bat without understanding the situation is not right.

A 15% requirement for renewable energy from utilities is a really good start.
Removing the tax breaks (that is what others are calling increases) from big oil.
Point for conservation (when utilities make it happen in their territory).
Removal of tax credits for hummers.

AND, as stated in the article, the intention to increase CAFE standards and much more. I'm not saying it's a perfect bill, but this type of legislation has to be hashed out among the lawmakers just like any other. And, with Bush threatening veto almost NO MATTER WHAT, you have to ask if 1/2 a loaf is better than none at all.

Karl, you say conservation is not the answer, then you give an example of exactly how is IS THE ANSWER. Conservation represents the #1 potential for quick reduction of both pollution and our energy needs! Anyone who looks around can see that WASTE (lack of energy efficiency) is all around us. I have been chastised by some of my "back to the land" friends by saying that "technology is the only thing that can really save us", and in this case technology is behind conservation. Make the internal combustion car 5% more efficient and it really makes a vast difference. Make it 50% more (plug-in hybrids, etc.) and it gives us more time. Better insulation standards (in this bill) are obviously going to save energy.

I'm sure folks have heard of Amery Lovins and the Rocky Mountain Institute. They are doing a lot of good work with market approaches (efficiency=reduced cost) to saving energy.
(broken link removed to http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid151.php)

"no matter how much oil there is, we should save it whenever doing so is cheaper than buying it, and nowadays that is always. Unlike short-term behavioral changes, efficiency investments are irreversible: you don't scrap fuel-frugal furnaces or remove roof insulation when fuel prices drop, so efficiency ratchets up. And elegant frugality will outdo incrementalism: efficiency often yields expanding returns."

I could not disagree with Cheney more. His outlook is to dig more coal and drill for more oil. This means more pollution, more wars, more central control, etc.

I though I was cynical, but the general mood here seems to be "if you can't do something perfect, don't do anything at all". That is exactly what Cheney (and Osama) want you to think.

 

[TMonter]

A 15% requirement for renewable energy from utilities is a really good start.

Another one-size-fits-all solution? Have you read what classifies as renewable? This whole idea is a joke.

Removing the tax breaks (that is what others are calling increases) from big oil.

Something I heartily approve of, but then again government should not prop up any business. Businesses should stand on their own or not at all.

Point for conservation (when utilities make it happen in their territory).

Conservation will automatically happen when prices get high, not reason to legislate it. Just deregulate the energy industry.

 

[wg_bent]

Craig,

"Better insulation standards (in this bill) are obviously going to save energy."

What is the improvements in the standard?

Interesting that you state this as an improvement. Clearly improvements in the insulation standards will do nothing for the millions of existing homes... Same exact thing as making the case for improvements due to Clean Coal technology. You stated a few months ago that the newer plants and technology would not be much of an improvement since it did nothing for older plants (which could fairly cheaply (relative statement) be retrofited from what I've read) They should have mandated in the bill that older coal plants should meet the new standards by 2010. (Yes Yes, I realize one is emissions, the other is efficiency, but same argument)

Really both are good.

Also, improvements from R19 walls to R21 is a joke. I had heard it was that low. Plus a stupid change that makes problems for builders, yet an improvement from r19 to r29 would be a much better improvement, and a easy change for builders. (just add R10 sheets of EPS foam board on the outside of the building)

No improvements in corporate MPG average is just plain stupid. People buy a new car on average something like once every 5 years, so there's a big turn over in cars and clearly improvements in cars could happen very quickly.
Large SUV sales really haven't taken a big hit yet, so clearly the gas cost isn't high enough yet.

Good grief this is frustrating....(800 pages is effin useless)

 

[elkimmeg]

Also, improvements from R19 walls to R21 is a joke..

IOnprovement from r_ 11 to r19 .21 is an inprovement but this bill does not address the change to 2/6 walls as long as 2/4 walls are used r value will never exceed R15

This bill does not require r21 walls or r-19 walls..

WEB WANTS US TO JUMP UP AND DOWN AND GET EXCITED AV BOUT 5% ethnol when 30 years ab go we actually had it at the pumps Call this back to the future nothing new here

I have not read the 800 pages but read enough that there is little new and little about nothing so insignificant the bill is Hilliary and Olbama could not find time in there schedule to even make roll call vote. So they felt it not even worth voting on

 

[webbie]

Well, I guess we'll all do nothing until there is a one page bill that we can understand, and which they will agree upon!

That time is, obviously, never. So the oil companies are very pleased that we will not be taking away their tax breaks, and maybe I can still order a loaded Hummer and deduct it 100%.

 

[whenley]

If it makes you feel any better, you can run your Hummer on E85. Expect around 8mpg.

 

[Burn-1]

Researching financial and energy issues in depth will simply depress you. I am preparing, but at the same time partying like a mad man!

Seriously, the future is a train wreck. Party like it's 1929!

 

[elkimmeg]

Thanks you guys just gave me the tax break I may need if this year turns out ok. I can purchase a hummer claim it as a business vechicle and fully deduct it.

Actually I could do this for any vechicle backhoe dump truck or any other business expense. I rather prefere a Vette that gets 16mpg. I have to review jobs fast.

Truth I will put money in my 1998 Isuzu pk to squeeze a few more years out of it. At 25 mpgs, my wallet thanks me