Hi folks. I joined the forum just a couple of days ago and have been reading a lot of the postings. As I know very little about wood boilers especially the gasification types I am keenly interested in your knowledge of the subject. My wife and I just retired, were able to do it a little early, and will be building on acreage near Colville Washington. The land is 27 acres with plenty of downed wood and I would like to take advantage of that. I am not certain of the best way to go on a couple of fronts. 1. Outdoor verses indoor. 2. Thermal storage tank verses no tank and open system verses closed system. I will continue to read as much as I can and try to learn the terminology but be prepared for some basic questions. Take Care
New guy here to say hi and learn.
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Welcome to the Boiler Room, idmck.
The pros of outdoor (such as a gasifier in a shed or other outbuilding or an OWB) include 1.) all the smoke and mess outdoors, 2.) no risk of burning down your house (lower insurance costs), 3.) easier to access your wood supply.
The cons include: 1.) lower efficiency because standby losses don't heat your house; 2.) more expensive because of the additional piping, digging, bigger pump requirements, etc.; 3.) having to go outside in all weather conditions to load the stove. One additional disadvantage to an OWB is that if it's visible to others, you're probably going to be blamed for all the smoke anyone smells and sees, whether it originated with you or not.
The open or closed decision will probably be made for you depending on what kind of boiler you buy. Most OWBs are open systems, while most indoor-style boilers are closed. IMO, closed is better if for no other reason than it will require less maintenance over time.
You'll want a hot water storage tank with a gasifier, but you don't have to install it right away. You can run the boiler without storage, but it's a little more work and you lose some efficiency, but it works pretty well.
What are your priorities? Cost--efficiency--smoke--burn times?
The pros of outdoor (such as a gasifier in a shed or other outbuilding or an OWB) include 1.) all the smoke and mess outdoors, 2.) no risk of burning down your house (lower insurance costs), 3.) easier to access your wood supply.
The cons include: 1.) lower efficiency because standby losses don't heat your house; 2.) more expensive because of the additional piping, digging, bigger pump requirements, etc.; 3.) having to go outside in all weather conditions to load the stove. One additional disadvantage to an OWB is that if it's visible to others, you're probably going to be blamed for all the smoke anyone smells and sees, whether it originated with you or not.
The open or closed decision will probably be made for you depending on what kind of boiler you buy. Most OWBs are open systems, while most indoor-style boilers are closed. IMO, closed is better if for no other reason than it will require less maintenance over time.
You'll want a hot water storage tank with a gasifier, but you don't have to install it right away. You can run the boiler without storage, but it's a little more work and you lose some efficiency, but it works pretty well.
What are your priorities? Cost--efficiency--smoke--burn times?
ldmck said:
With a "clean slate" of building a new house, I would take a very close, long look at a Garn. My neighbor has one, and, even though I've been heating in part with wood for years, his installation is what turned me on to the huge efficiency gains of gasification, and the huge convenience gains of storage (being able to build fire when is convenient, not every time you happen to need/keep immediate heat).
I did not want to build a new outbuilding just for a wood boiler, and I have no way to shoehorn a Garn into an old farmhouse basement, so I am going with gasifier + separate storage. _BUT_ by the time I am done, I am not sure it'll be dramatically less money than a Garn would be, and Garn's system of having built-in, self-functioning storage in the same unit as the boiler strikes me (now that I am going down the other path of needing various plumbing + pumps + controls) as a wonderful simplification of the overall system for those who have the option to do it.
As long as you plan to be there for some years, and if you value your time in cutting and handling wood, any gasifier-type unit, especially with storage, will be immensely more efficient than a non-gasifier like the older type "outdoor wood boiler" huts
Not to be too presumptuous, but you did say you are retiring. I would suggest putting in a system that is highly efficient and does not require you to have to use large quantities and large pieces of wood. Since you will live with this system for 20+ years, you need to imagine what it will be like to fill it at that age. I love the self contained system of a Garn, but the smallest unit I see on their website is 350,000 BTU's. That seems a little big for new construction for a retired couple. There are commercially available storage products that can be installed and be just as easy to operate as a garn.
So here is my suggestion: An indoor gasifier installed in a location where you can easily get the wood into (walkout basement, boiler room off of garage, seperate structure just for it, etc.) and a heat storage tank of your choosing. The SSTS style ones would work or a pressurized vessel that is well insulated.
So here is my suggestion: An indoor gasifier installed in a location where you can easily get the wood into (walkout basement, boiler room off of garage, seperate structure just for it, etc.) and a heat storage tank of your choosing. The SSTS style ones would work or a pressurized vessel that is well insulated.
As always, WoodNotOil raises some thoughtful points.
One thing to consider is to build from the start with radiant floor heat if there is any way you can do so; if you have to choose to do certain things in initial construction, and add other things (like a wood boiler) later, this (radiant floor) is something to be sure to do if you are starting with a clean sheet of paper.
With any of the wood gasifiers+ storage (whether Garn or separate boiler/storage) the fact that radiant floor works down to much, much lower temperatures of heated water will give you far, far more net usable heat from any fuel, as well as, convenience, comfort and general long-term bang for the buck, than any other option.
I do not have radiant floors myself, and am not sure whether it'll be completely feasible to add them underneath the multi-layer softwood floors of my old farmhouse, but I have relatives who have them, and between experiencing the comfort that they offer, and learning (here on Hearth) how many options they open up for efficient/ alternative heating systems, I would never again rennovate or build without trying to include them.
One thing to consider is to build from the start with radiant floor heat if there is any way you can do so; if you have to choose to do certain things in initial construction, and add other things (like a wood boiler) later, this (radiant floor) is something to be sure to do if you are starting with a clean sheet of paper.
With any of the wood gasifiers+ storage (whether Garn or separate boiler/storage) the fact that radiant floor works down to much, much lower temperatures of heated water will give you far, far more net usable heat from any fuel, as well as, convenience, comfort and general long-term bang for the buck, than any other option.
I do not have radiant floors myself, and am not sure whether it'll be completely feasible to add them underneath the multi-layer softwood floors of my old farmhouse, but I have relatives who have them, and between experiencing the comfort that they offer, and learning (here on Hearth) how many options they open up for efficient/ alternative heating systems, I would never again rennovate or build without trying to include them.
Thanks for the replies folks. I greatly appreciate your thoughts. As far as retiring I'm 57 and the wife 55 so as far as hauling the fuel I should be OK for awhile. We have most definitely will be doing in floor radiant heat. I have wanted them for a long while and will be darned if we don't do it this time. I did do some research as far as the storage system goes and that seems like a no brainer if your budget allows. That too is on my list of priorities. I have some time now so I will be checking out Garn. Do any of you know about Greenwood? That is a name my potential builder is buying from.
Take Care
Take Care
ldmck said:
I would suggest doing some searches on this forum using that name.
Lots of info, both positive and negative, and you can make up your own mind about that particular company...
Joe
I'm surprised you haven't gotten any responses from Greenwood owners yet. I own a Seton boiler copy and Greenwood too is basically the same design, each having their own particulars according to the manufacturer.ldmck said:
Here's my take on the these type of boilers---mine,Setons,and Greenwoods are all happier burning large rounds of wood. As you found out with your research, any boiler will benefit from storage. With the larger wood you handle the wood less but it is harder on the back, especially my wifes.
My unit is located in my attached garage. Whatever boiler you have you will have smoke,ash,etc. Locating the boiler in an isolated but attached mechanical room would have been my first choice. It is especially nice though to load the boiler inside when its -10 and the wind is blowing 30mph.
This is a big investment that will result in big payoffs, something you don't want to do over. Make it the most convenient for you and your wife. If my boiler lasts 5-6 years I'll probably be lucky. I then intend to purchase an Econoburn,EKO,or Tarm. I did look at the Econoburn@ The Woodsmens Field Days in Boonville NY this weekend. Build quality seemed excellent and heavy duty. I talked to Fritz Florian from Alternative Heating Solutions and he was very informative.
One definite thing I can tell you is stay away from anything to do with Adobe Boiler or Enterprise Boiler plans. If you read the two Adobe Boiler threads you will see why.
Good Luck and congrats on retirement.
I think the last suggestion is right on target. I looked at the Tarms, discovered they were back ordered, and then looked at the Econoburn. Tarm's build precision and robustness were high quality, but the Econoburn, to my eyes/ opinions at least, was higher still, especially in simple sturdiness.
Any of the true gasifiers (Tarm, EKO, Econoburn, and, as far as I know, a Garn, will create a LOT less ash than any other (non-full-gasification) woodburning appliance you've ever seen in use, so ash is less of a worry, both in general and in terms of where you locate your boiler.
Any of the true gasifiers (Tarm, EKO, Econoburn, and, as far as I know, a Garn, will create a LOT less ash than any other (non-full-gasification) woodburning appliance you've ever seen in use, so ash is less of a worry, both in general and in terms of where you locate your boiler.
I have run a GW100 for about 2 full years now. Long learning curve on these, and I am still learning.
Do not base your opinion of these boilers - OR ANY OTHER - on a sales brocheur. Ask around someone who's actually using the unit in the field. Accept the FACT that SALESPEOPLE LIE!! In the cyber-world, salesmen are not as readily recognized :sick:
When I was shopping, I narrowed my choices down to - Tarm, Garn, Greenwood, AHS, and EKO. If I were making the decision today, I would add Viessman and possibly some other European designs.
I took a chance on Greenwood, since they were a new company. The design of the unit is not new though.
Jimbo
Do not base your opinion of these boilers - OR ANY OTHER - on a sales brocheur. Ask around someone who's actually using the unit in the field. Accept the FACT that SALESPEOPLE LIE!! In the cyber-world, salesmen are not as readily recognized :sick:
When I was shopping, I narrowed my choices down to - Tarm, Garn, Greenwood, AHS, and EKO. If I were making the decision today, I would add Viessman and possibly some other European designs.
I took a chance on Greenwood, since they were a new company. The design of the unit is not new though.
Jimbo
I've visited this board several times over the years since 2005-2006 when I was building my home. I ran out of money with the house so had to go with a temporary electric boiler for my hydronic system. My electric bills in the couple of very cold months here in North Idaho are about $180/month. That's my only heat source other than solar gain that comes with the windows on the south of my home, which is pretty substantial. With the economy dumping I'm hoping to get the boiler soon so that I don't have to be as concerned with heating our home if economic volatility increases. I have gravitated toward the Greenwood. I'll be looking through some of the other discussions for information and personal experience with Greenwood users. If anyone has anything specific to offer in the way of feedback on the company and its products, please let me know. Seton, the guy who supposedly designed the Greenwood boiler, lives and designs in Libby, Montana, which is about two hours from my door, but I don't get good feedback from people who have visited his shop, etc. I have a good supply of firewood on my property, but very limited funds to purchase the boiler and build a space for it. $10k or less total for boiler and a place to put it (no basement). Any input or ideas are very welcome. Primarily, has anyone out there had negative experience with owning and operating a Greenwood system?
You heat with electric and your highest bill is $180 a month? Wow, with heating bills that low I'm not sure I could justify the cost of a gassifier. My natural gas bills exceed $400 a month in the coldest two months of the year in addition to $80-90 for electric. And that is keeping my house at 65 when I'm home, 60 when I'm not, and 57 at night when were all in one room. That's COLD!
But at any rate, I think you'll find a lot of good feedback on this site. Do some searches. EKO, Tarm, Greenwood, etc. You'll find it all...and if you've got the money you likely won't regret it.
But at any rate, I think you'll find a lot of good feedback on this site. Do some searches. EKO, Tarm, Greenwood, etc. You'll find it all...and if you've got the money you likely won't regret it.
Yes, I'm pretty happy with the low monthly cost, which averages out at around $100/month total for a year, which takes care of all our electric usage. When I shut down our electric boiler (and technically, I don't think it's actually a boiler) our electric bill is around $40-45/month. So the idea isn't to have the wood boiler pay for itself. It's more an issue of reliability. Our power goes down very little now that they fixed up the lines, but if it does go down in the winter, we have no heat other than an LP oven/range and solar gain. We have nine acres of trees. No need to explain that part further. I think that with a very basic solar system I could produce plenty of power to run the circulation pumps in my hydronic system and any fans associated with a boiler. In fact, Fred Seton, the guy in Libby, MT who supposedly designed the original Greenwood boiler says he has a power generating turbine system that can be run off of his boiler. I don't know much about that, but I'm sure Fred would love to tell you about it. Sounds like a mini biomass/cogen setup of some sort. I'd like to find out more about that as well. But for now, I really like the gassification systems. Not only do they not pollute (as much) and produce efficient heat, it also fits in with the permaculture design and community sustainability work I do and would fit into a great demo project. I'd like to get one of these systems into an alternative building project that uses green materials, passive solar design, permaculture, etc. Make it the model for rural America. Thanks for the input.
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