New home, new setup, on the right track?

[Nigel459]

Hello! Great resource this place--thanks very much for all the info gleaned so far and I hope to add anything I can to the wealth of knowledge here.

We've enjoyed wood stoves most of our lives: two old airtights (occasional use at the cabin), and a newer Heritage more recently.

My wife and I are are transitioning to a smaller loft style home w basement (in the woods--lots of hardwoods) and first priority is to add a wood stove to supplement the electric heat. There is also an old corn stove in the basement that "needs work". Our plan is to add the wood stove to the main floor in the kitchen/dining/living area which enjoys a cathedral ceiling with loft master bedroom, which is above the other rooms on the main level (bathroom and spare/office).

The footprint of the house is 24x26 (624sf). So... for main level and upper cathedral plus loft would I simply double that for calculations?

I'm trying to figure out what size stove to go with. I've read all kinds of things about including the basement, not including it if it's not down there, etc.

There's a Jotul Firelight 12 for sale locally. I've read up on it here and am wondering if you folks think it would be too big? Or maybe the slow cat burn would be a good constant heat in the winter time?

There are lots of windows on the south side. It's basically this design but with more glass on the south gable end and a bit larger.

http://panabode.com/home/muskoka/

I'll get some pictures up of the space once I get in for measurements soon.

Thanks very much for any advice as we begin the installation process!

Nigel

 

[Nigel459]

If these help, here are a couple of pics

Thanks again for any thoughts

 

[begreen]

There are many stoves that would work for this setup. I'd look for something in the ~2 cu ft range. If someone will be home to tend the fire every 6-10 hrs. then a non-cat would work. If not, then a cat stove may be a better choice. What's the budget and is there any style that is prefered?

 

[Nigel459]

Thanks Begreen.
Budget... for us it's one of those fluid answers... we are happy to spend for quality when it seems right. I haven't had a cast iron stove for regular use before so I'm not sure how much "better" it would feel than steel, but I suspect we would appreciate it.

The Firelight 12 for sale locally includes the hearth pad, a ceramic wall shield and 6' of double walled pipe. Doing the math I'm thinking it's a pretty good deal at 1k CAD ($800USD), even with the likely cat replacement. Thoughts? I do like to "dial in" my tools and systems so feel up for the cat.

Re: size, my local dealer suggested a Regency 2400 which states 75000 BTUs. What I can find about the Jotul F12 suggests 55000 BTUs, so am I right in thinking the Jotul wouldn't be too much stove for us? at 1300sf (plus basement) with that long catalytic burn being the key here? Or would it be too much?

Feel free to float any other suggestions too, thanks again

 

[begreen]

The Regency 2400 is in the right size range. Pay more attention to the firebox capacity than the peak output of the stove. In normal running the stove may be putting out half that amount of heat. Look at stoves that are in the ~2 cu ft size range.

Set aside about $1500-2000 for infrastructure for the stove. That's for chimney and hearth pad. Get quality product and install it properly. The stove has more variables. I think the Jotul Firelight would be too much stove for this space. It's also pretty radiant so it has larger clearance requirement than some alternatives. In catalytic stoves I would look at Blaze King or Woodstock, but I am not sure Woodstock stoves are certified in Canada. That comes down to Blaze King for the cat option. In non-cat there is a wide gamut of stoves available that are made in Canada. If you want a cast iron stove then there is one made by Regency and sold under the Hampton label as the H300. If you want a steel stove that looks a bit dressier then there are stoves by Napoleon, Enviro, Pacific Energy, and also Quadrafire and Jotul that have a cast iron jacket surrounding the steel stove body. These stoves usually have closer clearances and put out a softer heat which works well for closer areas.

PS: Is there a ceiling fan in place? They will be necessary to deal with heat stratification in the loft area. Without one it could get uncomfortably warm there.

 

[webby3650]

That firelight won’t necessarily run very low and slow even though it’s a cat model. Also parts are becoming unavailable for the #12, mostly Castings and top lid linkage parts, but still, on its way out...
The 2400 is a no frills plain Jane heater, very likely overkill for your space. Nice heater though.
I also wouldn’t count the basement as square footage when stove shopping, considering the stove is on the main level.

 

[Nigel459]

Thanks very much for the guidance. I managed to see a few stoves: the Regency 2400, Pacific Energy Vista and Super, and a few Jotuls. The dealers were all on the fence about a "small" or a "medium" stove as well in terms of suitability in our space. I think it's coming down to an aesthetic vs function decision that we'll get to make; i.e. a medium (like the Super or 2400) wouldn't be too much heat but might look large in the room. And the small would heat adequately, be smaller in the room and would simply need more loading.

Unfortunately the specs on the size of the small Enviro "Kodiak" look good, right in between what I was able to see; but wasn't able to see one...

Soo... I thank you again for the guidance. I'll come back with any more questions along the journey

 

[Bullyboy]

We were really worried about size as well. We narrowed it down to a Blaze King Ashford but couldn't decide on a 20 or 30. Ended up getting sold on the 30 because of the ability to dial it down to not heat us out of the house. Now in saying that, I haven't heated a full season yet so I can't comment on that yet but you mentioned aesthetics. That's the wild card I wasn't expecting. You will be absolutely shocked at how many people congregate to the stove in your house. Its a magnate and I'm not even talking about when it's going. Makes me laugh because we had it installed and I was and still am disappointed with the install but sure enough as soon as someone comes over the first thing they mention is how nice the stove looks. Just food for thought.

 

[Nigel459]

(Oh yes--there is a large ceiling fan!)

Thanks for that Bullyboy. Great point, especially where we are thinking we'll position the stove. The focus of the room will be the view out the large windows in the fair and bright seasons, and the wood stove will likely end up right there too. Yes, it had better be a pleasing look, which is why I'm shying away from the deeper "mediums" that might look a little sticky-outy in the room.

We are going to mock it up when we get in for measuring this weekend.

For above reasons, I did like the wide-and-shallow look of the Jotul F400 Castine (CF). I think it's about a 1.8 cf firebox, same as the Kodiak 1200.

Reading on here about the only negative is the Castine tends to soot up a tad... (once in a while cleaning is no big deal to me I'd say), otherwise well-loved. I did not see a Kodiak 1200 unfortunately--would have liked to as it is a 1.8 cf firebox as well and not as deep as the PE Super or Regency 2400.

Any comments on Kodiak 1200 vs Jotul Castine?

Cheers

 

[begreen]

Both stoves are well made. In practice, loading N/S and burning with a deeper firebox is preferable. An E/W burner is harder to load so that the logs don't roll against the glass. This can be particularly inopportune if the log is already burning strongly.

We've owned the Castine. It is a beautiful stove, especially in enamel. Our glass stayed pretty clean. Sooting would indicate a gasket leak, damp wood or a smoldering fire. Outside of that, you are comparing a steel stove to a castiron stove with the inherent differences between them. Over time, say 20 yrs, a cast iron stove will probably need rebuilding, the steel stove will not. That said both will need regular maintenance and the rebuilding of a simple stove like the Castine is not that big a job.

If you like the Kodiak, but visually prefer the Castine, then I would suggest looking at the Enviro Boston 1200 FS. This is the Kodiak firebox with a castiron jacket. It not only looks beautiful, but the extra mass of the cast iron jacket helps temper the heat coming from the stove so that it feels less blasting. It also acts as the thermal flywheel, absorbing heat when the stove warms up and slowly releasing it when the fire has died down. The difference in our house going from one design to the other was immediately notable in greatly reducing room and house temperature swing.

 

[Zack R]

Thus far I've enjoyed my Jotul F45. It can punch out the heat if needed but is also happy running with smaller fires. This stove loads N/S which in my book is the only way to go. Controlling the heat from this stove has more to do with how much wood you load than anything else.

Its a steel stove with a cast iron jacket. Even after the fire dies down it still radiates heat for quite some time. The glass stays clean and I almost never have to empty the ashes (once a month thus far), they just keep burning up into smaller and smaller bits.

Another plus is one control lever (air inlet). The stove has been very easy to control and even with pine has provided reliable overnight burns with a full load.

 

[Pertzbro]

I firmly beleive in ceiling fans. Especially in stove rooms with vualted ceilings. I have one of these in my kitchen. Lots of CFM for the price. They come in a different color too.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Fanimation...Kit-and-Remote-9-Blade-ENERGY-STAR/1000002326

 

[Nigel459]

Thanks again for chiming in Ok here's our update... we've had visits from two dealers who echo your comments--good!

They both strongly recommended the Regency 2400. (There's a free-blower promo on now too.)

Also... highly recommended for our use case was the BK Sirocco 30 (and 20).

We are more leaning towards the cat at this point... drinking the kool-aid and all that...

Stay tuned and thanks again for all the suggestions along the journey!

 

[begreen]

A cat stove would be good, take a look at the Ashford 30 too. In non-cat I would recommend a cast iron jacketed stove over a straight steel stove for this application. The suggested Jotul F45 is a good fit as would be the PE Alderlea T5, Enviro Boston 1200, & Quadrafire Explorer II.

 

[Ashful]

The mention of a Jotul Firelight 12 caught my eye. I would not recommend that stove for this space. They’re absolutely beautiful, but they’re monster heaters, and I began having a lot of trouble sourcing suitable combustors for mine.

I see your options as a cat stove up to 3 cu.ft., or a non-cat closer to 2 cu.ft. The obvious burn time advantage goes to the cat stove, which is why you can afford to go larger on them (wider range of burn rates).

I have a two BK Ashford 30’s, and absolutely adore them, but Woodstock owners also speak every bit as highly about their stoves. I know much less about other cat stove brands, as they see much less traffic (or enthusiasm) here. I don’t think any other stove can burn as slow or long as a BK, but that could always change.

On non-cat, I’d be looking at Jotul Castine or Oslo, or the PE Alderlea. There are a lot of non-cat options, but these are the two brands that hit the cosmetic and quality marks that appeal to me.

 

[Nigel459]

Update: OK wow, great advice that has paralleled that of the dealers/installers, imagine that...

The short list now includes 2 stoves:

1. BK Sirocco 20 (1.8 cf box + cat)
2. PE Alderlea T5 (2.1 cf box, cast iron outer)

The cat on the BK would presumably provide the longer burn times at lower heat, esp in shoulder seasons.

We like the appearance of the Alderlea slighty more and the install on it is a little cheaper on the install plus pipe (--different dealer. There's also a promo on it for a nice $250 discount.)

We are weighing the better pricing and aesthetics of the T5 vs the allegedly super long burn times (on low i.e. shoulder seasons) of the BK.

Please help!

 

[Bullyboy]

I can't comment on the T5 but I have the Ashford 30. I actually just finished putting some wood in. I'm not sure what part of Ontario you are in but we are half way between Belleville and Bancroft so unless your on the north shore of Superior you are in roughly the same climate as us for now. At 6am monday morning I put in 7 smallish splits. Maybe a little over half of the stoves capacity. I didn't have to put more in now but I'm still learning and wasn't quite sure if it would be enough to go to the morning so I put another small load in. That to me is amazing considering what I remember of being in cabins with stoves that needed twice nightly refills during hunting season. We have a roughly 1400sq ft home only moderately insulated. I wasn't sure about all the hype about these BK stoves but I'm certainly on my way to being a believer. That's saying a lot because our install was not the greatest. Ohh, back to the house. Temp has been constant at 24C. A bit to warm for me but perfect for the wife. I actually have a window cracked while she's out. Lol.

 

[Nigel459]

Thanks for sharing Bullyboy,

Yes, it was chilly today, we even saw some wet snow here in "Western Ontario!" Not on Superior so yes, very similar climate. Sounds like you are liking the kool aid... awesome! Sorry to hear your install wasn't the greatest but I'm glad you're enjoying your stove so far.

The Ashford looks really nice but for us it's either a cat in the Sirocco or the cast iron and slightly bigger box on the T5. It seems that any modern stove is going to perform well, which is why we're torn... trying to figure out how to decide... getting close to flipping a coin!

 

[Bullyboy]

The Sirocco is the same fire box and cat as the Ashford I believe so if you go the BK route you should get the same results.

 

[Ashful]

Nigel, help me understand why you're considering a 2.1 cu.ft. non-cat against a 1.8 cu.ft. cat stove. With the ability for BK's to run way low, you should be considering the BK 30's (not the 20's), as comparable to the T5.

Put otherwise the T5 can burn as low as 0.26 cu.ft. per hour, and the BK 30's can burn as low as 0.09 cu.ft. per hour, using their proven (if not conservative) numbers. If we assume ash or maple around 187,500 BTU per cubic foot (split and stacked), that means the T5 can run down to 49 kBTU/hr, and the BK 30 can run down to 16.5 kBTU/hr. Why would you ever even consider going smaller on the BK, when the big one can already run 3x lower than the T5?

All of the BK 30's are the same stove, with different dress panels on them. A Sirocco, Chinook, and Ashford of the same size will have basically the same performance, ignoring slight differences in convective ratio and material heat capacity.

 

[begreen]

The T5 and Ashford 20 are pretty different stoves, each with their strong points. It depends on what one's highest priorities are. For long burn times during mild weather the Ashford is a clear leader. It's a well made stove with nice quality detailing. If you want to cook on the cooktop (I have not done this) the lid is removable for direct access to the steel stove top. The T5 is a non-cat with a non-conventional design that incorporated the baffle, secondary burn and top insulation into one unit supported on stainless side rails. This is coupled with a linked secondary air control that provides an exceptional burn time for a non-cat. The Alderlea series has a swing-away trivet top that allows for broad cooking temp control.

Between the two I think the Ashford's door latching is superior, but this is matched by the Alderlea's very flexible trivet top. Both are good choices. The T5 will keep a cleaner glass throughout the season and nice flame show, but nothing beats the BK for longest burntime.

 

[Nigel459]

Thanks for the great thoughts:

...
Why would you ever even consider going smaller on the BK, when the big one can already run 3x lower than the T5?
...

Thanks, great question and I do understand the logic there. We are willing to trade more frequent reloading for the slightly smaller stove. BK states the 20s go for 8hrs on High to 20 hrs on low, the 30s are 10/30 I think. I know these are mainly relative but 8hrs seems plenty for us and surely 20 hrs would be dreamy on low! It’s not a huge space at around 1000sf or so depending on how you consider the knee-walled upper loft. After mocking up the stove in the room we really want to keep the size as small as we can.

So if the 20 can do it for us, (and everyone says the 30s are basically the same system with a bigger “fuel tank”), then we’re ok with the more frequent reloads. Which in theory would still be the same (or less-frequent on “low”) as a 1.8 cf non cat. Steer me right if I’m off base here.

The T5 and Ashford 20 are pretty different stoves, each with their strong points. It depends on what one's highest priorities are. For long burn times during mild weather the Ashford is a clear leader.
...
Both are good choices. The T5 will keep a cleaner glass throughout the season and nice flame show, but nothing beats the BK for longest burntime.

Thanks begreen, both being good choices is why it’s a tough choice

I wish we could test drive one, probably the BK, as I have a feeling the low burn factor is just that great to have that kind of control. You say the T5 has unusually long burn time, any comment on real world times? I didn’t find much here on the T5, other than folks do like them, but again, all the modern efficient stoves seem quality...

 

[moresnow]

Food for thought. My BK Sirocco 20 has been going 11-12 hrs per load since last fri. afternoon on primarily white pine loads. Not known as a long burn fuel to say the least. I have a abundance of the stuff. Might as well use it up early season.
My home is a story and a half 750sq.ft. on the main floor. Not much different in footprint than yours. My stove is located on the main floor as a corner install to maximize available floor space. Main floor and upstairs stay very comfy.
Until the next "miracle of technology" comes along this stove is staying here! Feel free to message me for insight from someone who is actually using a 20 series BK. Enjoy your research!

 

[Nigel459]

Food for thought. My BK Sirocco 20 has been going 11-12 hrs per load since last fri. afternoon on primarily white pine loads. I have a abundance of the stuff. Feel free to message me for insight from someone who is actually using a 20 series BK. Enjoy your research!

Hey that’s great, thanks for your reply! And that’s the exact model we are looking at. Is it your primary heat? How big is your space? Any other pros or cons about the sirocco 20? Cheers

 

[moresnow]

Primary heat. Yes. Shhhhh. Don't tell your home insurance fella that. They want to here that the wood stove is a backup or secondary heat source. 750 sq.ft. on the main floor as well as second floor here. My place is a work in progress Only 1/4 of my exterior walls now have insulation between the studs. The 20 kept my place comfy last winter without the insulation. Cant wait to get the entire place insulated.

My take on the cat stove is this. If the L.P. furnace needs to run it's time to fire the wood stove. The cat stove is able to run at such a controlled heat output that I find I am running it far more than my former non-cat unit. I run full loads twice a day.

My non-cat had a huge heat swing that roasted the place. Then either went out or needed molly coddling with regular additional splits to keep it going. I don't miss futzing with the non-cat at all. I don't miss the huge heat swing. The giant initial heat output was kind of impressive however!

My experience is that you will plan on keeping the cat stove running for the gentle regulated heat output that it is known for. Don't plan on "just running it when it's terrible cold". My BK brings the place up to temp slowly. Then holds it there easily with far less wood consumption. My non-cat was more like a shotgun wedding. Boom, it would overheat the place. Then required more feeding/adjusting/monitoring etc.

Just my experience.