New Installation - Insulated pipe too hot?

[djlarson77]

This is going to be similar to Grizburner's recent post, but with a different setup. Just had the P.E. Alderlea T5 installed. Fired it up, slowly at first due to some wetter wood (I know, I know-no lectures please)....anyway, finally got it firing pretty good and noticed some new stove smell in the lower level, no big deal. But then in the bedroom above, the insulated Excel piping started smelling like cat urine or maybe seafood of some sort. More disturbing was that it was very hot to the touch (no I don't have a thermometer yet). It was so hot that if you left your hand on it for more than a second you would be burned. Also, the seam on each section of stainless steel pipe was blackened. It was almost like the insulation in the pipe was burning?? WTF! What a buzzkill. I've already heard from some of you that a super hot insulated pipe means that likely something is wrong. I can't get a hold of the installer who put it in but will try tomorrow. I figured you guys probably know more anyway so.....any ideas?

 

[oldspark]

Have you got any thermometer on that thing any where to give you an idea how hot the stove or pipe is? Never mind I now see you dont, I would get something so you have an idea how hot the stove is, good place to start.

 

[djlarson77]

Have you got any thermometer on that thing any where to give you an idea how hot the stove or pipe is? Never mind I now see you dont, I would get something so you have an idea how hot the stove is, good place to start.

Yea, maybe I'll pick one up tomorrow. Possible I had it a little too hot, had a tall fire built and probably didn't damper down early enough. But sure seems like that expensive Excel pipe shouldn't behave like that, but not sure based on my limited experience.

 

[gasavage]

Congrats on your new stove!

I have a T5 with Excel pipe as well. I only have 8 ft of class A with 5 ft of double wall, while you appear to have maybe another 8 ft of class A. You do have the 2 els, which will reduce the effective height maybe 5 ft, but you still have more than the recommended minimum height. This thing should have an excellent draft.

I understand what you are experiencing with the warm / hot temps you are feeling on the pipe. I ended up getting a Condar flue pipe probe themometer. It's mounted 18" above the stove. I've learned that I have to start dampering down my air control , on a reload or cold start, sooner than what I was used to. It's easy for me to get 1000 deg F flue temp with only a 200 deg F stove top temp at start up. I've learned that when my flue temp reaches @ 400 deg F I had better start dampering down the air. I can keep the flue temps in my comfort zone then, and the stove heats up quicker. (keepin the heat in the firebox). I have been up to 1200 deg F flue temp, at start up, a few times during my learning process (yes I puckered the first time).

You have a new sytem on your hands & you're going to have to learn it's nuances. Folks you're going to love this stove. It's a great heater with a fantastic flame show.

 

[djlarson77]

Congrats on your new stove!

I understand what you are experiencing with the warm / hot temps you are feeling on the pipe. I ended up getting a Condar flue pipe probe themometer. It's mounted 18" above the stove. I've learned that I have to start dampering down my air control , on a reload or cold start, sooner than what I was used to. It's easy for me to get 1000 deg F flue temp with only a 200 deg F stove top temp at start up. I've learned that when my flue temp reaches @ 400 deg F I had better start dampering down the air. I can keep the flue temps in my comfort zone then, and the stove heats up quicker. (keepin the heat in the firebox). I have been up to 1200 deg F flue temp, at start up, a few times during my learning process (yes I puckered the first time).

Thanks, makes me feel a little better knowing you've experienced the hot excel pipe temps. But should the outside of the weld seam be blackened? Did you experience the bad smell? Also, forgot to mention, the outside of the excel pipe was very hot on the roof as well.

Regarding the Condar flue pipe - I think I'll get one. Do you have double wall black in your stove room? I'm guessing it shouldn't be a problem to put a probe thermo through a double wall?

 

[North of 60]

The probe type thermo is designed for the double wall. To me your blackening at the vertical seams looks more like a residue from manufacturing that has now pooled up after it has heated up. Kinda like a wax.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Our pipe goes through the wall then up the outside of the house. It is very common to go outside and the chimney is hot enough that you do not want to hold a hand on it for more than a second. This is outside in the winter! So I'd say you will definitely feel some heat inside the house. It is not a bad idea to build something around it to make certain nothing will even fall against that pipe.

 

[gasavage]

[quote author="MinnesotaGuy" date="1284831752"]
Thanks, makes me feel a little better knowing you've experienced the hot excel pipe temps. But should the outside of the weld seam be blackened? Did you experience the bad smell? Also, forgot to mention, the outside of the excel pipe was very hot on the roof as well.

The seam may have gotten blackened, but it's long gone now. It's probably just the mfg oils / wax burning off. Yes, you will have some smell, but will eventually go away. I know the class A on the roof does get warm to the touch, but as to hot....I dunno, as I've never checked when the stove was firing hard.

Regarding the Condar flue pipe - I think I'll get one. Do you have double wall black in your stove room? I'm guessing it shouldn't be a problem to put a probe thermo through a double wall?[/quote]

Yes I have the double wall connector pipe. It' easy to install the probe thermometer. All you need is a drill motor & 2 drill bits. I believe 3/16 & 1/4.

 

[SKIN052]

I have an excel pipe on the summit, i occasionally check the temp of the pipe by hand and it has gotten very warm, not really hot, but very warm. You have a nice set up there and a great looking stove. I would probably box in that pipe though once you are confident with the set up. Any chance the pipe got exposed to the rain prior to being installed? Maybe that the insulation got soaked and started to dry out, causing the blacking on the seams.

 

[djlarson77]

I have an excel pipe on the summit, i occasionally check the temp of the pipe by hand and it has gotten very warm, not really hot, but very warm. You have a nice set up there and a great looking stove. I would probably box in that pipe though once you are confident with the set up. Any chance the pipe got exposed to the rain prior to being installed? Maybe that the insulation got soaked and started to dry out, causing the blacking on the seams.

The contractor had an enclosed truck and I believe it came out of a box. I talked with the installer/store owner today and he said the smell came from the oil they use on/with the pipe and it's normal to smell it during break-in. He was going to check with the distributor on the blackening of the seam. I do plan to box in the pipe, but no little kids running around so I'm not too worried about it at this point. Knowing that that pipe throws off some heat, I'm wondering if it makes sense to leave some exposed (some type of heat vent cover or grate?).

 

[SKIN052]

Oil on the seams makes sense, i guess? I will have to check mine more closely and let you know. I agree, if the pipe seems very hot then leave a grate or some sort of access panel so you can check it on occasionally. I will admit, after my install, I was paranoid as heck and was routinely checking pipe temps inside and out. That has passed some what now, but still, I have the wife and kids at home so I gotta keep them safe.

 

[djlarson77]

Oil on the seams makes sense, i guess? I will admit, after my install, I was paranoid as heck and was routinely checking pipe temps inside and out.

I don't think he was talking about oil on the seams necessarily but with the pipe in general. I'm pretty sure I'm paranoid and over thinking this, but with safety and $$ at stake I'll over think until I'm sure things are ok.

 

[begreen]

It would help to have some actual temperatures to be more objective. What is the stove top temp and what is the class A pipe temp? Check temps when there is good secondary combustion and no smoke coming from the flue.

I'm wondering how the stove is being run. Are you having to give the fire a lot of air due to the unseasoned wood? For comparison, maybe get an armload or two of seasoned wood from a friend or the hardware store.

 

[djlarson77]

It would help to have some actual temperatures to be more objective. What is the stove top temp and what is the class A pipe temp? Check temps when there is good secondary combustion and no smoke coming from the flue.

I'm wondering how the stove is being run. Are you having to give the fire a lot of air due to the unseasoned wood? For comparison, maybe get an armload or two of seasoned wood from a friend or the hardware store.

Bought a stovetop magnetic thermometer and the Condar flue pipe probe themometer is ordered from Amazon.

The stove is being run fine, it was just the initial firing that got away from me a bit. Once it was going and I turned it down, it burned beautifully. In fact I'm very impressed with the T5 so far on how efficient and how slow it burns through wood.

I have plenty of seasoned wood, I just didn't have any that was covered (been raining a lot) so there was some surface water on it that kept it from starting easy.

 

[oldspark]

I think you are going to like the PE, bought my summit in march so still learning but like you said it seems to kick out heat off of a small amount of wood for a long time.

 

[djlarson77]

I emailed my stove contractor, who checked with their stove pipe distributor. This is the email answer I received back:

"The dark marks you are seeing on the class A pipe are the weld marks. When the pipe heats up for the first time, they show through. It's perfectly normal. As far as the heat, thats also normal. Your not suppose to be able to hold your hand on the pipe. The owner may have told you our unit in here gets just as hot where you cannot touch it, and we don't normally have "roaring" fires in the showroom."

Now if my house burns down there's more of a solid link in the liability chain. Ready to Burn Baby Burn! (inside the T5, not the house) :ahhh: If only it would cool down enough to justify starting a fire. Lows in the 50's for the foreseeable future, WTH. When the temps get down to the mid 40's or low 50s at night, our house never gets below 72 inside.

 

[djlarson77]

Hey I wanted to float this idea by you guys….what if, after I frame around the class A insulated in the bedroom, I leave a grate or some type of vent opening to reclaim some of that heat? I was even thinking about having two openings, one down low and one up high. Then using a through-wall fan to push air out of the low vent, which would consequently pull air in through the high vent. It seems that as the air moves down along the pipe it would heat up providing heat to the room. I would probably run it with a thermostat so that it didn't suck in cool air from the outside once the stove cools down. The county inspector has come and gone already, but does that sound like it would violate any codes? As I'm writing this.....I'm realizing that it could possibly pull in smoke from the chimney if there is any kind of a downdraft...unless I force air in through the upper vent? Maybe it's a dumb idea, but still would like your thoughts.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Hey I wanted to float this idea by you guys….what if, after I frame around the class A insulated in the bedroom, I leave a grate or some type of vent opening to reclaim some of that heat? I was even thinking about having two openings, one down low and one up high. Then using a through-wall fan to push air out of the low vent, which would consequently pull air in through the high vent. It seems that as the air moves down along the pipe it would heat up providing heat to the room. I would probably run it with a thermostat so that it didn't suck in cool air from the outside once the stove cools down. The county inspector has come and gone already, but does that sound like it would violate any codes? As I'm writing this.....I'm realizing that it could possibly pull in smoke from the chimney if there is any kind of a downdraft...unless I force air in through the upper vent? Maybe it's a dumb idea, but still would like your thoughts.

First of all, why fight natural convection? If you install 2 vents, one bottom and one top there would be no need for a fan, natural convection will cause cool air to flow in the bottom and the heated air to flow out the top.

2nd of all, if you're worried about the chimney leaking smoke into the chase like that then something is clearly not right with the chimney; it shouldn't leak any smoke at all, that would defeat the purpose of the chimney wouldn't it?

Regarding codes? I'm not sure... but in my ZC fireplace install I vented the chase to capture all the extra heat coming off the outside of the fireplace, 5 feet of chimney inside the chase, and the duct-work that is routed through there.

 

[djlarson77]

2nd of all, if you're worried about the chimney leaking smoke into the chase like that then something is clearly not right with the chimney; it shouldn't leak any smoke at all, that would defeat the purpose of the chimney wouldn't it?

There's a small space between the chimney and the flashing, it's sort of free-floating so it has room to expand and contract. I'm talking about the smoke going up and out the top of the chimney as it's supposed to, but then possibly coming back down through this space. I'm sure this wouldn't happen normally, but if I create negative pressure in that space, maybe?

I get what you're saying about using natural convection and I like that idea, cheaper and easier. But if I move the air it seems like there would be more heating of the room.

 

[begreen]

I'd go the convection route. No point fighting mother nature and using power to do it. Put a 4x12 grille bottom and top and be happy.

 

[djlarson77]

curiosity question:

In general, would class A pipe get hotter with double-wall black near the stove than if you have single-wall? Meaning with single-wall the heat is able to dissipate better into the stove room while the double-wall would send more of the heat up the stack making the class A hotter?

 

[vvvv]

curiosity question:

In general, would class A pipe get hotter with double-wall black near the stove than if you have single-wall? Meaning with single-wall the heat is able to dissipate better into the stove room while the double-wall would send more of the heat up the stack making the class A hotter?

correct