New Stove Advice

[Jedi]

Hi everyone. I've been watching this forum for a bit now, and would like to learn from those more experienced.

Since I'm looking into installing a wood stove or insert, I went to a local hearth shop in Southern Maryland but all I received were a bunch of brochures and no specific advice.

I would like to install a wood stove or insert in the existing fireplace. The house is about 2350sqft, single story floor and located over a crawlspace in the bottom.

The fireplace is dead in the middle of the house as seen in the pictures I am providing. I would like to have long burns to not be reloading every few hours, as well as the option for occasional burns with the door open (using a screen ? ) since the wife will miss the open fireplace. Being a crawlspace house, I don't think the stove can be the primary heat, since I don't want the water pipes freezing I would need to use the furnace a few hours during the day. The crawlspace is sealed and encapsulated though.

The room where the fireplace is located has vaulted ceilings and two massive skylights that go to the rooftop, so the volume of space to heat is more than if all the 2350sqft were 8 or 9ft ceilings. We also spend most of our awake time in the common areas and have no need to heat the bathrooms or closets in the ends of the home. The playroom area has sliding doors which I currently close the few times I use the fireplace so that the little heat it gives off stays contained, so I imagine I would do the same with the Insert during nighttime burns.

What would give out more heat, a properly sized insert or a smaller freestanding woodstove that would fit inside the firebox?

For sizing, should I go with the recommended sqft from the manufacturer or the BTU output? And how accurate are those sizing specs?

Would you recommend catalytic or non catalytic stove? Steel or Cast Iron?

I read about the BlazeKing Princess insert, but i don't think it would fit properly while meeting the clearance requirements (see firebox measurements diagram).

Any feedback and recommendations are welcome!

 

[begreen]

I'd put in the largest insert that fits.

 

[stoveliker]

If you want to burn with the doors open, don't take a cat stove.

 

[Jedi]

If you want to burn with the doors open, don't take a cat stove.

Thanks i didn't know that. I thought any stove could burn with doors open having the firescreen.

 

[ericm979]

Can you satisfy the ambience requirement with a unit that has a large window? You'll see flames and there will be radiant heat from the front of the unit just like an open fireplace.

 

[stoveliker]

In fact, most modern stoves need the door closed to burn properly.

I concur to get the biggest insert that fits with the biggest window.

 

[bigealta]

My wife Originally from NYC, "had to have" the open fireplace. Well sorry but i already had jotul 3 installed. She "thought" from movies, tv shows or whatever that it's open fireplace or nothing. I don't even think she knew what a woodstove was. It only took about a few days of cold winter weather for her to do a complete 180. She loves the woodstove with the glass door closed because it's hotter! She's always cold but in the woodstove room it is usually 80F plus. I never heard another word about a fire in a fireplace, or can we open the door when it's burning. I'd wager you would have a similar experience.

Large glass door on the woodstove is the way to go.

 

[begreen]

Osburn inserts have a firescreen option. The Osburn 3500 is a good large insert. It looks like it has a firescreen option, part # AC01281.

 

[Jedi]

Does anyone have a similar ceiling with skylights in the fireroom? Will these suck up/loose too much of the heat?

So the general consensus is on skipping the "open door" fire. I can convince my wife about that.

I saw the Osburn 3500 specs and says 10hr burns. For that similar price range are there cat stoves with better heat output or longer burns?

Lastly, can I realistically expect to reduce my gas/propane usage by at least 40%?

 

[stoveliker]

Cat stoves won't have better heat output than non-cat stoves. They have on average the same efficiency (ratio of heat shed into the room versus heat going up the flue). That means that for the same size firebox (fuel load), the amount of heat the appliance can provide *in total* is the same.

The *rate* of heat release will differ some.
What (some) cat stoves can do is extend the lower output range to lower values. And they do that without much flame view.

This is because non-cats need flame to burn cleanly (combust everything). Going lower than the lower limits there means the fuel is smoldering. I.e. dirty exhaust (and creosote in the chimney).

A cat stove does clean up that smoke, allowing it to run at lower BTU outputs than a noncat stove. But it's a more boring look then.

(There are caveats, e.g. some cat stoves use the combusting of the smoke in the cat for heating, and some others mainly use it to clean up the smoke, i.e. the design there is not amenable to good shedding of the heat output of the cat.)

So, if the views are *always* important, it may be best to go with a non-cat.
This may mean "no fire" when it's a bit warmer outside so as to not cook yourself out of the room. Or it will mean shorter burn times on smaller fuel loads. More frequent restarts. (Versus the boring low-output long burns of some cat stoves.)

40% decrease in gas usage depends too much on where the insert is located, how the heat spreads throughout the home, what temps you like to have in the home, and what would acceptable variations of those temps in different rooms be (farther rooms colder than the stove room). Can't really predict that, imo.

Sky lights do loose heat; windows have lower insulating performance than insulated walls.
The high ceiling will likely need a ceiling fan to avoid pooling of heat there (and near the sky lights).
The many walls in your home will hinder heat spreading throughout the home.

 

[xman23]

My story is exactly as "bigealta" said. My Oslo can run with the front door open. We bought the screen for it, never used. The rolling ball of fire in the stove is much more impressive than a open fireplace.

Your open floor plan / great room will be perfect for a stove. They give of a lot of concentrated heat so a big room makes it less intense. A ceiling fan helps a lot.

As to the stove or insert, I'm no expert here, I'm a stove boy, but......... There are almost the same. The insert is built for your situation, sits in the fireplace opening. Most if not all use blowers to get the heat off the outer surface of the insert. Complaints are, they can be noisey. Are they any less heat than a stove, maybe. So check yours out before you purchase.

As to a stove, some here have built out the fireplace hearth to allow a full wood stove to sit in front. Some how making the chimney connection work. Others that have done this can explain. Benefit is normally no fan.

But in both cases you need something figured out about the chimney. Is yours a full masonry chimney, that a insert fits into?

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Does anyone have a similar ceiling with skylights in the fireroom? Will these suck up/loose too much of the heat?

So the general consensus is on skipping the "open door" fire. I can convince my wife about that.

I saw the Osburn 3500 specs and says 10hr burns. For that similar price range are there cat stoves with better heat output or longer burns?

Lastly, can I realistically expect to reduce my gas/propane usage by at least 40%?

Id go with the largest insert. Having the fireplace not on the outside wall is a plus. I wouldn't do a free standing stove with your setup. You will get plenty of fire viewing with an insert with a large window, you will not miss the open fireplace. I wouldn't plan on burning with the doors open, we have this option and have never done it. You can cut your usage of heating usage to 0%if you choose to, all this depends on you and how you want to do it.

I installed a ventilation system in my home separately from the HVAC system. It draws the hot air trapped at the ceiling and moves it to the far rooms of the house. It has a wall switch that i can turn on. its just a 14 inch duct booster fan and flex duct Its set up to blow into the kids bedrooms and the master bathroom which are the farthest from my stove. All of this is run in the attic. I dont use it alot just a fiew hours here and there when it gets super cold. Its also used to keep the stove room at a mor comfortable temperature as sometimes it gets warm there. Your going to have alot of heat trapped in the upper part of the ceiling so you may need to consider something like this. If you want to really reduce your heating cost, you need to get your wood supply and storage together.. I heat my entire home with 3 to 4 cords per year and im using all high BTU wood.. Your a little south of me so you should have quality wood at you disposal

 

[Jedi]

Id go with the largest insert. Having the fireplace not on the outside wall is a plus. I wouldn't do a free standing stove with your setup. You will get plenty of fire viewing with an insert with a large window, you will not miss the open fireplace. I wouldn't plan on burning with the doors open, we have this option and have never done it. You can cut your usage of heating usage to 0%if you choose to, all this depends on you and how you want to do it.

I installed a ventilation system in my home separately from the HVAC system. It draws the hot air trapped at the ceiling and moves it to the far rooms of the house. It has a wall switch that i can turn on. its just a 14 inch duct booster fan and flex duct Its set up to blow into the kids bedrooms and the master bathroom which are the farthest from my stove. All of this is run in the attic. I dont use it alot just a fiew hours here and there when it gets super cold. Its also used to keep the stove room at a mor comfortable temperature as sometimes it gets warm there. Your going to have alot of heat trapped in the upper part of the ceiling so you may need to consider something like this. If you want to really reduce your heating cost, you need to get your wood supply and storage together.. I heat my entire home with 3 to 4 cords per year and im using all high BTU wood.. Your a little south of me so you should have quality wood at you disposal

That duct setup sounds very interesting. Did you insulate the ductwork? I've been collecting wood for the past 2 years.

 

[begreen]

Does anyone have a similar ceiling with skylights in the fireroom? Will these suck up/loose too much of the heat?

No more than they are doing now. Are there ceiling fans in the fireplace room? They will help reduce heat stratification near the peak of the ceiling near the skylights.

I saw the Osburn 3500 specs and says 10hr burns. For that similar price range are there cat stoves with better heat output or longer burns?

Long burn times = lower output. This is like a car rated at 30 mpg. It may get 40mpg when driven slowly (low output), but only get 20 mpg or less when driven hard in winter.

The Osburn 3500 will easily provide 10-12 hr burns. When pushed harder for heat that time will drop. It's the same thing for a cat stove, when pushed hard for heat, it will consume wood faster. The Osburn will have a greater top-end output than the BK stove which is thermostatically regulated. In the BK line, look at the Princess insert.

Lastly, can I realistically expect to reduce my gas/propane usage by at least 40%?

Yes, depending on how it is run. If the propane system is keeping the house at 70º, and that is what the wood stove is keeping it at then yes. However, if the wood stove is asked to keep it at 75 or 80º, then the fuel savings will be less. As noted, the dryness of the wood also plays into this equation.

 

[Jedi]

The fireroom has a cieling fan. I think the first pictures show it.

I went to my local hearth shop today and the owner said similar, the non cat stove will give out a higher heat for a shorter time, while the cat stove will give out a lower heat output but longer times. I think I'm inclining towards cat stove, since it should be easier to move the slower heat and not get roasted out of the room compared to the non cat stove.

The attic was sealed and insulation was updated last winter to about R45 (from R25). Although there is only so much air sealing improvement that can be achieved in a 1990s house.

I'll update the thread when the store emails me the specific models I was shown, but they didn't carry the Osborn.

 

[stoveliker]

Regardless of whether you have a "hot" room or a warm room, the BTUs put into the home (if spread properly, and the thermostat sees the temperature) will raise the "base" temperature from which the propane furnace has to heat it up.

So, you don't have to "get the home to 70 F" with the wood stove. If you fluctuate between 65 and 68 with the stove, the furnace only has to heat 2-5 degrees, whereas without the stove, it'd have to do it from whatever the temperature of a non-heated home would be (50?). That is a way to have savings and still have a consistent temperature in your home: set the thermostat of the furnace at the temperature you want, and then run the stove slightly below that.

Of course if the thermostat is right next to the stove, this won't work. So that's something to consider.

 

[Jedi]

I went to my local dealer. They didn't have the Osburn though. They had the following:

Blazeking Ashford 25 w/ large shroud $4,696
Lopi Large Insert w/ Boston door and shroud $5782
Montlake 230 w/ cast top, shroud and faceplate $4526
Nova 2 Insert $3699

For all models, the insulated liner and adapters are $1800 and labor is $950.

So final installed price with tax is

Blazeking Ashford 25 $7893
Lopi Large Insert $9043
Montlake 230 $7712
Nova 2 Insert $6835

The Lopi and the Montlake are similar to the Osburn in appearance and in heat output. I asked about the BZ Princess, but my hearth would not meet the 16in requirement.

Are these prices reasonable or should I get more quotes from independent installers? I've seen liner kits online for about half the price I was quoted, so I imagine their is some profit/labor included in the $1800 tag.

 

[begreen]

The larger Montlake 300 would be preferable.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

That duct setup sounds very interesting. Did you insulate the ductwork? I've been collecting wood for the past 2 years.
View attachment 302483View attachment 302484

I did not do the install myself. It was my Idea. I was having a house remodeling done and the contractor did it as part of the remodeling.. keep that wood covered.. a shead would be best

 

[Ashful]

If you want to burn with the doors open, don't take a cat stove.

Why? I used to own three cat stoves that were all rated for open-door burning, in fact Jotul even provided them with a screen to be inserted, for this very purpose. Given that a cat stove has a bypass that can be opened for this purpose, whereas a non-cat does not, I think that ONLY a cat stove could have the potential for open-door burning.

A cat stove with doors open and cat bypassed is essentially a fireplace. Manage heat output with how many splits you load at a time, in this mode. We used to do it on holidays, when the house was full of people, and we wanted a fire but didn't want/need the heat. It's one of the few things I miss about those stoves, as BK doesn't come with a screen or specifically spec it for open-door burning.

Maybe I should fashion my own screen, and give open-door burning in one of the Ashfords, this Thanksgiving? A good question for the BK thread, I guess.

 

[Jedi]

Any feedback on the quotes? Do they seem reasonable?

Unfortunately the with Montlake sticking out 8in from the firebox, I would only have 12in of hearth left. Being a raised hearth about 12 above the normal floor, are there exceptions to the 16in requirements?

 

[vbu]

Any feedback on the quotes? Do they seem reasonable?

Unfortunately the with Montlake sticking out 8in from the firebox, I would only have 12in of hearth left. Being a raised hearth about 12 above the normal floor, are there exceptions to the 16in requirements?

I'm not sure on the insert prices, but liner and labor seem reasonable to me. Did they spec which liner they will use? Heavy wall is preferred, stay away from 2 ply. MAKE SURE they put a blockoff plate in.

 

[begreen]

Why? I used to own three cat stoves that were all rated for open-door burning, in fact Jotul even provided them with a screen to be inserted, for this very purpose. Given that a cat stove has a bypass that can be opened for this purpose, whereas a non-cat does not, I think that ONLY a cat stove could have the potential for open-door burning.

A cat stove with doors open and cat bypassed is essentially a fireplace. Manage heat output with how many splits you load at a time, in this mode. We used to do it on holidays, when the house was full of people, and we wanted a fire but didn't want/need the heat. It's one of the few things I miss about those stoves, as BK doesn't come with a screen or specifically spec it for open-door burning.

Maybe I should fashion my own screen, and give open-door burning in one of the Ashfords, this Thanksgiving? A good question for the BK thread, I guess.

I thought there was concern about running a BK stove with the bypass open over an extended period of time. It's buried in one of the All BK things thread, but it was something about warping the bypass frame?

 

[Jedi]

I'm not sure on the insert prices, but liner and labor seem reasonable to me. Did they spec which liner they will use? Heavy wall is preferred, stay away from 2 ply. MAKE SURE they put a blockoff plate in.

I recall the dealer daid they use fireflex preinsulated liner. He said in some occasions when they can't find it or if it is unavailable, they buy the un-insulated liner and wrap it themselves on the job site.
I asked about the blockoff plate and the dealer said they don't do that.

 

[Ashful]

I thought there was concern about running a BK stove with the bypass open over an extended period of time. It's buried in one of the All BK things thread, but it was something about warping the bypass frame?

Yes. Specifically the older Princess (and maybe older King?) had some sacrificial components in the bypass assembly, which would fail safe if ripping a hot load with bypass open. I don't know the details, just remember that they were designed to somehow protect the rest of the stove, and that these bypass parts would need to be cut out and replacements welded in, if they failed. I believe they eliminated that in recent revisions, and the Ashford I don't think ever had that feature.

But I'm really not talking about loading a stove chock-full and letting her rip, anyway. When I did this in the Jotul, it was only ever just 2-3 splits, and very low-heat fire. In fact, I seem to remember the Jotul manual specifying that open-door burning was only for smaller fires, never a stuffed firebox.