New wood stove install

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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
Hey guys,

I used to be an active member of hearth many years ago, house was fired by an old dinosaur basement wood furnace. A few years ago we had to get rid of it (liner was cracked in numerous spots) and it simply wasn't worth keeping around anymore.

We've been a few years without wood heat and with propane rates skyrocketing, I intend to install a new wood stove on the main level in the living room, along with new chimney. Unfortunately, our existing 30' masonry chimney is clay lined and external, and would cost too much to line and is impossible to retrofit for a wood stove. (Wood stove would be in the bathroom lol)

House is 2 floors, living room and one bedroom downstairs, 2 bedrooms upstairs, 1700 sqft, wood stove would be in the living room. Northern Michigan winters, home is moderately insulated. Chimney would go through the wall and have a 4 foot horizontal run before going up and out, 10-15 feet. I'll likely be using dual wall insulated chimney pipe I have on hand provided I can and it still meets code requirements unless there's a really good reason to go to uninsulated triple wall. Its Duravent, Class A, meets all qualifications on paper, but galvanized outside though which I found surprising with stainless internal. Duravent still makes it though in galvanized, but I'm wondering if the insurance company will have a cow. Going through floors of the house and roof is not an option.

I'm trying to stay as budget friendly as I can while also getting a decent unit. I had initially intended on getting a Drolet, but unfortunately both big box dealers here that sell them have gone from "Out of Stock" to "Unavailable". Unfortunately I can't afford an Osburn, Jotul, or Vermont Castings. I suppose if I had to, I could order a Drolet online, something like the HT-3000) looks good.

That unfortunately leaves me with only a few "budget friendly" choices locally. The Englander NC-32(?) Seen here:


Or the larger yet Vogelzang VG3200.


Unfortunately neither of these are 75% efficient (70 and 71) , so I don't think I'd be able to get the tax credit for either.

I know the old Englander NC-20 used to get high reviews here with the older pre-2020 models, but not sure about the 2020+ models, and if this particular model is the newer NC-20 I remember learning about.

Vogelzang used to years ago have some quality issues in the past, but this particular stove has great reviews online. It is probably more than I need, but I'd rather oversize than undersize with the cold winters we have.

Alternatively, I could potentially order a Drolet HT-3000 online as there seems to be plenty of places offering free shipping and it looks like it might qualify for the tax credit, but that's a huge online purchase, and it's 525lbs, which means I may need to install another floor support in the basement.


What are your thoughts on which route to take? Thanks!
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,802
South Puget Sound, WA
That 4' horiz. run could become a major issue. it will reduce draft significantly and may end up being a creosote trap. Is there a way this could be significantly shortened? Triple-wall chimney pipe is a value line. A good double-wall chimney pipe is much better and it will require a smaller hole in the wall for the insulated thimble pass-thru.

I think you are referring to the Englander 30-NC. This was updated to meet the 2020 regs. It now is the 32-NC. The HT-3000 is also a good stove.
 
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stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
4,555
Long Island NY
also, 10-15 ft may be borderline tall enough (even with a shortened horizontal run). Rule of thumb is that for two elbows, one should think about adding 2 ft to the required minimum flue height, and for every ft of horizontal run one should also add 2 ft of vertical length.

So if you have 2 ft horizontal and 2 elbows, you likely have to add 4 ft to the minimum required length to obtain adequate draft. If that minimum is 10 ft, and you do have 15 ft vertical outside, you're ok, but most stoves ask for 12-15 ft these days, which would be 16-19 ft outside...
 

j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
That 4' horiz. run could become a major issue. it will reduce draft significantly and may end up being a creosote trap. Is there a way this could be significantly shortened? Triple-wall chimney pipe is a value line. A good double-wall chimney pipe is much better and it will require a smaller hole in the wall for the insulated thimble pass-thru.

I think you are referring to the Englander 30-NC. This was updated to meet the 2020 regs. It now is the 32-NC. The HT-3000 is also a good stove.


30-NC must have been the one. It's been a few years since I've been here. Lol.

I am trying to avoid going through both the wall and the roof soffit. Going through the roof makes me pretty paranoid about leaks so I'm trying to avoid it if at all possible.

I was reading one of the Drolet install manuals the other day (I can't remember which model off the top of my head) and was shocked that it said no more than 10' horizontal run. I thought 4 feet was pushing it, but 10! Wow!

also, 10-15 ft may be borderline tall enough (even with a shortened horizontal run). Rule of thumb is that for two elbows, one should think about adding 2 ft to the required minimum flue height, and for every ft of horizontal run one should also add 2 ft of vertical length.

So if you have 2 ft horizontal and 2 elbows, you likely have to add 4 ft to the minimum required length to obtain adequate draft. If that minimum is 10 ft, and you do have 15 ft vertical outside, you're ok, but most stoves ask for 12-15 ft these days, which would be 16-19 ft outside...

I can go taller, and may need to. I can get another 9 feet of pipe or so -- I'm going to have to probably hire someone to do the job just because I need to make sure I'm up to code on this and make sure I'm understanding the 2-10-3 rule properly. I have a pretty tall and steep roof, so that's throwing me off.



On a side note, I'm going to have to browse the Vogelzang here and see if anyone has one. It looks like the NC-32 is a pretty solid performer so far for the most part with the exception of a little bending/tweaking of an air intake which is a piece of cake.
 

j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
I wouldn't mind looking at pre-EPA wood stoves too provided they're legal for me to install. I honestly don't know the legalities; I imagine they vary state to state. Insurance company give me issues though too. I've seen a few pre-EPA Jotul stoves in great shape up for sale and would gladly snag one in a heartbeat.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,802
South Puget Sound, WA
Note that the same Drolet manual also says:
"Horizontal runs of flue pipe should be avoided where possible because they reduce chimney draft."
A clean burning stove is going to be the best bet. Regardless of stove, the firewood must be well-seasoned to keep creosote buildup lower.

How will the chimney pipe be supported if it is cantilevered way out to clear the soffit? I can understand the concerns, but a proper, professionally done roof penetration using quality materials should not be an issue. Ours is 16 yrs old and has never leaked a drop. It is a straight-up through the roof installation.
 
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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
Note that the same Drolet manual also says:
"Horizontal runs of flue pipe should be avoided where possible because they reduce chimney draft."
A clean burning stove is going to be the best bet. Regardless of stove, the firewood must be well-seasoned to keep creosote buildup lower.

How will the chimney pipe be supported if it is cantilevered way out to clear the soffit? I can understand the concerns, but a proper, professionally done roof penetration using quality materials should not be an issue. Ours is 16 yrs old and has never leaked a drop. It is a straight-up through the roof installation.

I used a 45 degree support that held it in place and was attached to the building. It was a homemade support when it was mounted in my shop, but I'm sure they make professional ones.

I will have to go through the wall and have at least some horizontal run unfortunately (albeit maybe shorter, 2-3 feet), going straight up is likely going to put me through a bedroom floor. :)
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,802
South Puget Sound, WA
I used a 45 degree support that held it in place and was attached to the building. It was a homemade support when it was mounted in my shop, but I'm sure they make professional ones.

I will have to go through the wall and have at least some horizontal run unfortunately (albeit maybe shorter, 2-3 feet), going straight up is likely going to put me through a bedroom floor. :)
Yes, the location has to be planned. Ours goes up through the corner of a bedroom closet. I'm glad we did it this way. It's a much cleaner look and much easier to clean too.
 
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stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
4,555
Long Island NY
I have 2 ft + thimble horizontal (and thus two 90 deg elbows). But a 26-27 ft chimney outside (two stories).
If you can plan straight up, you'll be in much better shape.

Indeed, from what I've read, I'd go for the NC32. The Vogelzang may work fine - but from what I read its longevity is questionable. As begreen mentioned, the Drolet line has a lot of happy customers too.
 
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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
I have 2 ft + thimble horizontal (and thus two 90 deg elbows). But a 26-27 ft chimney outside (two stories).
If you can plan straight up, you'll be in much better shape.

Indeed, from what I've read, I'd go for the NC32. The Vogelzang may work fine - but from what I read its longevity is questionable. As begreen mentioned, the Drolet line has a lot of happy customers too.

I think I'm likely going to do that; I honestly can't find hardly any information here on the Vogelzang VG3200 here.

There's a used Drolet HT-3000 locally to me for $750 currently, apparently used for a few months while the propane furnace was being serviced and that's it. It's pretty darn tempting to snag it; I'm just not 100% sure how I'll get it home; I assume the base comes off and I can dolly it from there.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,802
South Puget Sound, WA
That's an awesome price on the HT3000. It's a very good stove. made in Canada, not China, and easy to get parts for if ever necessary. What do you have for transport? Truck, van?
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
4,555
Long Island NY
Dolly indeed. But then how to lift it.

Go run and get that stove - look for overfiring (white "stains"), and obvious issues, but 3 months old and that price is great.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,802
South Puget Sound, WA
I think our stove weighs more than the HT3000. 2 geezers and a young lad moved it across the yard, up a step, and into the house in about 10 minutes. Wheels make the difference. Once the stove is ratchet-strapped onto a good appliance dolly with pneumatic tires it is much easier to move. Get a few friends together and have pizza and beer for after the stove is in place (not before).
 
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kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,546
07462
I think I'm likely going to do that; I honestly can't find hardly any information here on the Vogelzang VG3200 here.

There's a used Drolet HT-3000 locally to me for $750 currently, apparently used for a few months while the propane furnace was being serviced and that's it. It's pretty darn tempting to snag it; I'm just not 100% sure how I'll get it home; I assume the base comes off and I can dolly it from there.
I'd jump on that in a heart beat, surely you have a friend with a truck or trailer and maybe some labor just to get to your property?
 

j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
I've got a mini-van with a harbor freight trailer (with homemade lift gate capable of supporting an ATV) that should work. I've been tossing aside $20's here and there in case I found something used, so I need to see if I have enough for it. If I do, I'll probably snag it.
 
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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
I'm just shy of what he's asking for it (and realistically was waiting on my taxes to complete this project) but may be able to get it if he wiggles on the price a little.

Also, after looking closely yesterday, there's a possibility that I can go straight up through the ceiling, bypass my bedroom all together, go through the attic and then vent out the roof.

I was rough quoted between $5,000-$8,000 for a chimney install. That seems like a lot, but I also don't think I have a ton of options around here to ensure that it's done correctly and up to code. Given that I'm hoping to use at least 70% recycled parts, hopefully I can knock that down some. I haven't had the estimator come out yet.

I don't know if I need a licensed builder, a heating and cooling company, a chimney sweep/installer to do this project honestly. The company giving me the quote is the only heating and cooling company I know of in the area that sells wood stoves. The local Amish may be a better (and cheaper) option that I hadn't considered.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,802
South Puget Sound, WA
You'll want someone that knows what they are doing in general and knows specifically about proper chimney and flashing installation. This is infrastructure and not a place to cut corners. A lot of cheap contractors do not get this right. That's often where safety issues and potential leaks occur. A local sweep may be qualified, but get references for his installations. A starting point would be to call CSIA and NFI-certified sweeps in the area. www.csia.org and https://www.nficertified.org/public/ .
 
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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
You'll want someone that knows what they are doing in general and knows specifically about proper chimney and flashing installation. This is infrastructure and not a place to cut corners. A lot of cheap contractors do not get this right. That's often where safety issues and potential leaks occur. A local sweep may be qualified, but get references for his installations. A starting point would be to call CSIA and NFI-certified sweeps in the area. www.csia.org and https://www.nficertified.org/public/ .

This is my biggest fear, going through the roof, and initially why I didn't want to do it and wanted to do a wall install instead, which would have given me a 4 foot horizontal run.

I've got 3 potential places locally that I've found thus far; all install wood stoves, fireplaces and chimneys. One of them has been in business 45 years. Unfortunately the nearest NFI certified sweep is 70 miles away according to this search, and none of the ones on my list are on this list. I'm actually kind of surprised at that.

On a side note, the HT-3000 sold the day I messaged the guy. :(
 

kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,546
07462
I've done multiple class A chimney's and a few liners for friends, going straight up was pretty easy to do, depends on the floors you have to pass through, if its living floor to attic (single story) then you can just using ceiling support box to class A then through the roof, the flashing is easy to use on a tradition roof pitch w/ asphalt shingles (gets a little hairy on metal roofs)
There are tons of videos on how to install on youtube, I think the duravent videos are the best out there.
 
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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
I've done multiple class A chimney's and a few liners for friends, going straight up was pretty easy to do, depends on the floors you have to pass through, if its living floor to attic (single story) then you can just using ceiling support box to class A then through the roof, the flashing is easy to use on a tradition roof pitch w/ asphalt shingles (gets a little hairy on metal roofs)
There are tons of videos on how to install on youtube, I think the duravent videos are the best out there.

If I went through the wall I might consider a DYI, but no way on a roof. I can't even scale my roof by myself. I've got a chalet style house, EXTREMELY steep and tall roof, 2 floors, but going straight up I believe puts me in the attic. I'm actually a little worried about the 2-10-3 rule -- if I go straight up rather than out first, I may have every bit of a 25 footer when it's all said and done or it may not be tall enough. That's a lot of chimney to secure.
 

j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
This is a similar concept to my house. Red is where abouts we'd be coming out (on the other side.)

bbbd1283d648f94ef5dffce6aa99e0ed.jpg
 

kingquad

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2010
681
Pennsylvania
Could you rent a boom lift and reach it like that? I used one to do some work on a steep roof on a garage I built with a 10/12 roof.
 

ratsrepus

Minister of Fire
Jan 5, 2018
701
Howell, Mi
Or the larger yet Vogelzang VG3200. Oh no Not the Vogelzang monster. say it isnt so
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
7,226
NE Ohio
I had initially intended on getting a Drolet, but unfortunately both big box dealers here that sell them have gone from "Out of Stock" to "Unavailable"
 
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j7art2

Feeling the Heat
Oct 9, 2014
431
Northern, MI
Or the larger yet Vogelzang VG3200. Oh no Not the Vogelzang monster. say it isnt so

I had considered the Vogelzang VG3200, but honestly couldn't find many reviews here on it. Their largest model is the only one I'd consider. Reviews online depict it to be a good stove, but reviews sometimes get skewed to sell products so I was a bit hesitant.