Newb needs help

[ironspider]

Hi guys. I'm a newb to your forum and have read some of the "before posting" stickies but haven't been able to find out the answers I'm looking for.

Background: I had a quadrafire (4100 i think) insert installed in our fireplace many years ago. As an aside, what a great thing these inserts are! This was many years ago and the place that installed it is out of business so there is no record of us buying it or what was done. Well who cares you ask?

I care because i need to get it swept and everyone is asking if it's fully lined. I have no clue, climbing to the top of the chimney for me is a very dangerous proposition to check. So question one: How else will I know if it's fully lined?

Also regarding the liner: Does having a full liner help with expelling smoke or is it simply ease of cleaning? The reason i ask this is that everytime i load the box, no matter what i try, opening slowly, opening a window, waiting until it's only embers, yada yada, I get smoke in the house and the wife yells at me. It's not a lot of smoke but enough where you can really smell it.

So that leads me to: If i have only a half liner or so, does it make sense installing a full liner, and why?

Guys, sorry for the long question from a newb. I greatly appreciate any and all responses (even bashing the newb) as long as there is a little help in there.

Thanks,

Jason

 

[Grisu]

Does that mean you cannot find a sweep who would be coming out without knowing whether you have a full liner or not? Weird. Btw. If you were burning in that insert a few years by now I would really get it swept before lighting it up again. You are more than overdue.

See if you can pull off the surround and with your camera take a picture up the flue. (At the same time you can check for a label to see which model you have.) I don't know the baffle system in the Quadra but maybe you can also pull out the baffle and take a picture up the flue. Not sure how well that would work. Maybe take also a picture of the chimney cap on the roof. If it is round, about 6-inch diameter you may have a liner.
On the other hand, the smoke spilling into the room indicates you may have draft problems. A proper liner ensures good draft, reduces the risk of creosote accumulation, offers additional protection in case of a chimney fire and, as you guessed already, is easier to clean. Should you not have one I would really recommend to install one. Is that an exterior chimney or an interior one? For an exterior chimney it will be much better to install an insulated liner, for an interior one you can go with an uninsulated one although the insulation would still be better.

Check also out how to make a block-off plate: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/ I assume you don't have one.

How is your wood? Has it been split and stacked with lots of wind and sun exposure for more than one year? Does it light easily when put on hot coals or does it sizzle and steam a lot?

 

[begreen]

Welcome Jason. How tall is the chimney?

I'd get a professional sweeping done. The sweep should inspect the flue system after cleaning and issue a report. That is the time to find out how the insert was installed. It could be that someone did a slammer install (no connection to the fireplace chimney) or a stub install which just connects to above the damper plate in the chimney. In either case the stove is likely to draw marginally.

If the stove doesn't have a full 6" stainless liner, get one put in. It will not only make the chimney cleaning easier, it will improve draft and will increase the safety of the flue system a great deal.

 

[ironspider]

Thanks for the replies.

I can get people to come out but one guys says if i don't have a full liner he'll charge 400 to clean it, that is a little steep. Just in case, I asked if i don't have a full liner how much would one be and was quoted 1200-1500, again, don't have that kind of cash for the fireplace this year.

Wood is always an issue, I'm using good seasoned hardwood, it doesn't sizzle and burns nicely, but that hasn't always been the case. This year though, I will run out of seasoned wood, Sandy took my supply and distributed it into the peconic bay, but i have a buddy that gave me a little less than a cord of ???and cherry, many small rounds, like branches but they were from 2 years ago and burn well. I picked up a ton of green rounds to split for next year, but this year will be tough.

As far as chimney. It's attached to the living room and goes up in the garage, the height goes up to about the second story of the house but there is no second story directly where the chimney comes out.

It's a square top, I can tell you that because i saw the new caps my contractor put on after sandy ripped them and everything else apart.

 

[begreen]

Try www.csia.org or www.ncsg.org to locate certified sweeps in your area. Tell them you want an assessment of your chimney to determine its safety and get a cleaning if necessary. Don't mention the liner, but instead be available to discuss having a liner installed if there isn't one. Very often the sweep will give you a break on the cleaning if it is included with the liner install. Typically a sweeping is under $200. A liner install will depend on how tall the chimney is. A good sweep may let you buy the liner online and install if for you or may provide you with a competitive price.

That said, if you are burning unseasoned wood, you have no choice. This chimney must be in great shape and cleaned about once a cord of wood burned. To do less would be risky business.

 

[ironspider]

I found someone based on your links but they just took my info and will have someone call me back. The gal had no clue about anything, just a receptionist.

 

[ironspider]

Try www.csia.org or www.ncsg.org to locate certified sweeps in your area. Tell them you want an assessment of your chimney to determine its safety and get a cleaning if necessary. Don't mention the liner, but instead be available to discuss having a liner installed if there isn't one. Very often the sweep will give you a break on the cleaning if it is included with the liner install. Typically a sweeping is under $200. A liner install will depend on how tall the chimney is. A good sweep may let you buy the liner online and install if for you or may provide you with a competitive price.

That said, if you are burning unseasoned wood, you have no choice. This chimney must be in great shape and cleaned about once a cord of wood burned. To do less would be risky business.

Had a company come out and inspect. Turns out I had an oval 6 ft liner for my insert. Looked like a heavy duty drier duct, the rest of the chimney was coated. Had the guys install new 6" full length liner gave me reasonable price. Hopefully this wil help the draft problem. But I'm happy I got it done, the liner that came out looked like a real hack job.

 

[ironspider]

Try www.csia.org or www.ncsg.org to locate certified sweeps in your area. Tell them you want an assessment of your chimney to determine its safety and get a cleaning if necessary. Don't mention the liner, but instead be available to discuss having a liner installed if there isn't one. Very often the sweep will give you a break on the cleaning if it is included with the liner install. Typically a sweeping is under $200. A liner install will depend on how tall the chimney is. A good sweep may let you buy the liner online and install if for you or may provide you with a competitive price.

That said, if you are burning unseasoned wood, you have no choice. This chimney must be in great shape and cleaned about once a cord of wood burned. To do less would be risky business.

Thanks for the links, very useful.

 

[ironspider]

This was the liner they took out. Had ridges all along the inside, wasn't even stainless. the crease in the middle is from the chimney guy stepping on it to show the difference between that and the new one.

 

[ironspider]

Well it's been some time since the new liner has been installed and I still cannot solve the draft problem. Even after the fire has been burning for hours, the liner is nice and hot, when i open the door to load wood, smoke will spill into the house. I've even opened a nearby window to see if this is the problem but that doesn't seem to work.

While a fire is burning with the door closed there is no smoke to be seen in the chamber, it's drawn out immediately, it's just opening that door that changes everything.

Any ideas?

 

[Rickb]

Are you waiting to load it till you are down to all coals? I know mine will spill out smoke if I have a bunch of wood still left in it. I only load on coals now and really have not had a problem.

 

[ironspider]

Most of the time I wait until its just coals, bright red coals.

 

[begreen]

Good to hear there is a full liner now. How much wood has been burned since the install? How tall is the chimney?

 

[ironspider]

I've burned wood almost everyday, but i can't possibly tell how much. The chimney is probably 20 feet.

 

[begreen]

Chimney height sounds good. The reason I asked about how much wood has been burned is that I'm wondering if the cap screen is starting to plug?

 

[ironspider]

Cap screen is new and looks fine.

 

[Grisu]

Well it's been some time since the new liner has been installed and I still cannot solve the draft problem. Even after the fire has been burning for hours, the liner is nice and hot, when i open the door to load wood, smoke will spill into the house. I've even opened a nearby window to see if this is the problem but that doesn't seem to work.

While a fire is burning with the door closed there is no smoke to be seen in the chamber, it's drawn out immediately, it's just opening that door that changes everything.

Any ideas?

Stupid question but are you opening the air control all the way before opening the door? Once you open the air (before opening the door) do you see air fanning the coals and flames that start to appear again? Where are the coals located in the firebox; more at the back, evenly, or more the front?
At the end it is possible that the bay window door design works against you. Maybe some other Quadra 4100i owners can relay their experiences.

 

[ironspider]

Stupid question but are you opening the air control all the way before opening the door? Once you open the air (before opening the door) do you see air fanning the coals and flames that start to appear again? Where are the coals located in the firebox; more at the back, evenly, or more the front?
At the end it is possible that the bay window door design works against you. Maybe some other Quadra 4100i owners can relay their experiences.

Yes, I've tried with both air controls opened and closed, when opened the coals glow brighter. However, I do not push the coals towards the rear of the box, I leave them alone which is usually spread out with more of a small pile in the middle.

I haven't yet heard from any other 4100 owners, I guess there aren't a lot out there.

So, should both air controls be open fully before opening the door, or just the front or just the rear?

 

[mass_burner]

Most of the time I wait until its just coals, bright red coals.

+3, I have a flush mount insert so smoke spills out easier. I open the air all the way and only reload on red hot coals.