Newb question on Indoor boiler Vs. wood/hybrid stove

[guts and glory]

First off Happy New year and thank you for the wealth of information !

I've been pouring through the archives and Q&A section looking for some guidance on a new source of heat for our new home. We moved into a 10 year old 2600 sq ft colonial with an unfinished basement , as you can imagine its a burden to keep warm. I've burned 450 gallons of oil since sept...NFG!

It's currently being heated with an oil fired boiler Via baseboard heat and hot water through a 41 gallon boilermate. I have been running a Jotul GZ 550 DV (L.P.) with the blower on as a supplement .

I'm considering a Greenwood http://www.woodstoves.net/greenwood/greenwood100.htm boiler in the basement to handle all the heat and hot water needs, the drawback is the initail purchase price and handling 2000 lbs safely into the basement through the bilco doors.( Small excavator?) This unit would also heat the garage I reckon...bonus points there!

The cheapo in me wants to just put a nice wood stove in the living room and be done with it...this does'nt adress the hot water needs though. (also goes against the wifes desires) I'm not sure how much oil I'd burn only supplying hot water but at the price per gallon i really dont want to burn ANY! Time is money...time I can burn,money not so much.

Then there are these units (broken link removed to http://www.wood-burning-boilers.com/model%20500.htm) would a wood stove with a boiler jacket be a compromise or a happy medium? I have no problems cutting registers in the floor to facilitate heat movement but reading through these forums the basement walls (un-insulated) would soak up alot of the heat.

Lastly I'm considering getting a bigger wood stove (broken link removed to http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/app/4209412991.html) in the basement and fabbing a serpentine coil off the back for hot water. Adding a storage tank and the plumbing might be a wash vs. buying a new unit?

When I'm not obsessivly stalking heating systems I'm an Ironworker by day and Mechanic/Blacksmith/Plumber/Carpenter/ Tractor enthusiast/Redneck in my free time...Like I need an excuse to buy a bigger chainsaw

Any help is greatly appreciated as I'm kinda stuck here freezing by the space heater!

Joe

 

[webbie]

Joe, so much of this depends on your lifestyle, your wood piles, your wallet and everything else. I think a lot of the folks here who do central heat came to the same conclusion - that is, to do it right or not do it at all. Doing it right involves storage and proper controls and the cost can definitely add up. Getting the boiler in the basement is perhaps the easiest part. I'm not right up on prices, but I think it's fair to say 15-20K isn't out of the question for a decent boiler, storage, chimney improvements, etc......maybe less if DIY.

But doing it right is the main thing.

If you feel that's too big a project to tackle, then a stove can do 70-80% of the job for you, look nice, and cost much less.

Your call, really - depends also on how long you intend to be in the house and whether you have time and access to loads of wood...and want to do it. If you are going to burn 3 cords a year, do it in a stove. If you can get as much as you possibly need and are looking to be in the house 15+ years, then consider the central units.

 

[rwh442]

The web site "wood-burning boilers-model 500" is a Thermo-Control unit. They have their own web site and sell direct. May be cheaper than whatever vendor that site is owned by. FYI.

 

[webbie]

The web site "wood-burning boilers-model 500" is a Thermo-Control unit. They have their own web site and sell direct. May be cheaper than whatever vendor that site is owned by. FYI.

That boiler happens to be a 30+ year old design and can hardly be labeled a boiler....just saying. If you are going to go with a boiler, do your homework and get modern technology. You will use 1/2 the wood and have fewer problems...and actually heat your house.

Otherwise buy a nice stove. The key today is efficiency - that is, getting good mileage from your fuel, whatever it is.

 

[rwh442]

Webbie,

The Thermo-Control model 500 is a stove with internal stainless pipes for hot water. I don't think they consider it a boiler but a "hot water stove" or stove with internal hot water coils. They do have conventional boilers starting with their 2000 model and larger. Do you have test data comparing wood consumption of lets say their 2000 model against an EKO, Tarm etc? That would be good to know. I am curious how much wood I would save.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Very little info on the them from there own site. Looking at it, it appears to be a fire box with a water jacket i.e. no gassification, so on the low end for eff which places it on the high end for wood consumption.
Massive fire box & that is usually a sign of something that is meant to smoulder, not very eff compared to a gasser, all those gasses just go up the chimney, rather than being burned for heat. AFA eff between a gasser & a non gasser quite likely close to that of an old smoke dragon stove vs a modern one. Likely the same diff in chimney fire risk as well. One produces creosote the other burns it.

 

[webbie]

Webbie,

The Thermo-Control model 500 is a stove with internal stainless pipes for hot water. I don't think they consider it a boiler but a "hot water stove" or stove with internal hot water coils. They do have conventional boilers starting with their 2000 model and larger. Do you have test data comparing wood consumption of lets say their 2000 model against an EKO, Tarm etc? That would be good to know. I am curious how much wood I would save.

This would be like testing a horse against your tractor.....not being funny here, but these are not in the same league. The Thermo-control (pipe type) boiler was behind the times even in 1979, so just imagine what that means today....

I'm not going to talk you in or out of anything - some people like to fiddle with things and learn for themselves. But there is absolutely no way to compare those with a real boiler. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that the TC could have about a 25% into the water efficiency, while a modern gasifier would have a 60% plus when everything is taken into account. But that's just throwing out some numbers.....

This is just MY advice. Others have their own opinions. If I were you, I would....

1. Get a stove
2. Take out a loan and get a very good boiler system
or for the third
3. Bide your time and pickup a decent used boiler and set it up right.....see this, for example:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...30-looking-for-all-the-mike-mulligans.115500/

 

[jeffesonm]

I'd start with a wood stove in the living room... find a used one and DIY install and you should have it paid back within a winter or two. I went from 1100 to ~400 gallons of oil, and most of that was boiler idling and DHW. I recently installed an electric/heat pump hot water heater so oil is now only backup heat.

After your wood stove is in, spend the next 6 months alternating between cutting/splitting/stacking firewood reading The Boiler Room. At that point you can decide if you enjoy firewood and plumbing enough to want a wood boiler, and if so, the wood stove will always be a great backup.

 

[guts and glory]

Awesome...thanks for the advice so far! I'm in it for the long haul here so a good system is beneficial,high efficancy too. Any money spent to burn wood will pay for itself quickly... Either way I'm going to be burning wood so I'm getting started tomorrow on firewood storage scenarios. The crates and pallets that get thrown out everyday at work are a blessing .sourcing the wood is'nt a problem either I have a few acres of dense woods with 6 or 8 trees in mind for starters. Converting my Hydraulic press to a splitter is a quick option too...

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[jebatty]

I'm a proponent of old-fashioned resistance electric hot water heaters combined with conservative use of hot water plus some easy, inexpensive enhancements. The electric cost for dhw for my wife and I, plus frequent family guests, is less than $5/month. I don't believe there is any alternative system less costly to install and use. Look at my post in Hot Water Heater for a discussion on these enhancements.

A well managed woods can produce at least 1 cord of wood per year on a sustainable basis. If you have several acres of fairly mature woods right now, you have a built in bank of wood to start with, but be sure to grow more trees and manage for long term growth. We have 6 acres of mostly aspen woods that has supplied the wood stove with about 4 cords/year and which heats our 1500 sq ft house since 1990, and the woods is still going strong with regrowth and plenty of future firewood. In our area it still would be reasonable to buy firewood, prices are about $185 per cord c/s, but wood cutting is my health care membership, physical fitness trainer, connection to the land and the amazing processes of nature, and teacher to keep me ever mindful that humans are part, but certainly not in control, of the ecosystems which are shared by and sustain all living things.

 

[guts and glory]

3. Bide your time and pickup a decent used boiler and set it up right.....:

I found a Greenwood 100 for sale. It has been used for 3 years. pump, plate exchanger, auto fill valve and expansion tank, plus battery back up system. Putting it in the basement I'll go with the draft inducer.
looking at the good folks here I see 3 years isnt a long time on one of these units, I am waiting on a better pic of the firebox. It looks like I'm going for the kill on this...burning wood in the house really doesnt appeal to my wife

 

[maple1]

Just wondering what drew you to the Greenwood?

Make sure you read everything you can find about them on here, and the net in general, to know what you're in for - I don't think one would be on my short list.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

I found a Greenwood 100 for sale.

I would suggest doing some research on those right here using the search function. Likely you will change your mind on pulling the trigger on a Greenwood.
Plenty of solid well performing units that have proved themselves over time…..this just isn't one of them. Like webbie said bide your time…do your research & ask away when you think you have a find.

 

[flyingcow]

I found a Greenwood 100 for sale. It has been used for 3 years. pump, plate exchanger, auto fill valve and expansion tank, plus battery back up system. Putting it in the basement I'll go with the draft inducer.
looking at the good folks here I see 3 years isnt a long time on one of these units, I am waiting on a better pic of the firebox. It looks like I'm going for the kill on this...burning wood in the house really doesnt appeal to my wife

Just curious...whats the asking price? Go slow looking at it. no impulse buying

 

[guts and glory]

What drew me into the Greenwood was the price really, I was shopping around for wood alternatives to get the oil monkey off my back. One website had a Greenwood on clearance for 3,800 shipped w/ heat exchange. Then looking local I found the 3 year old Boiler with most of the trimmings for 2K cash and carry. It sounds too good to be true so I did read up on them.100 K Btu's could heat this house plus the un finished bonus room and the garage with a little more tweaking.

Just from reading here it seemed to me that they were more finicky than some other types of gasification boilers, I'm already starting from the ground up and am behind the learning curve here having never owned or operated one. So I figured learning the a - typical Boiler wouldn't be that bad. I do have a mechanical background and my father in law can wire anything.

I also was under the impression that the burning box life on the Greenwood was longer lived? Is it Mizzou? I have worked with refractory cement building forges.

If it's a matter of buying a cheap unit I'll suck it up and go for the wood stove, I was more interested in inexpensive than cheap. I'll keep perusing the archives for more details. I am guilty of being in a hurry to get this under way, my skin tightens up every time the boiler kicks on :O

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Yep, understand all of your reasoning G&G. Most have been there. To be honest you may be better served with a used wood stove if the need for heat is immediate. Boilers take time to setup correctly, all of them. Two guys who are fit & mechanically inclined likely can have a used stove setup & running in a weekend, at least that would be a stop gap for the time being. Most boilers in working condition simply won't be for sale now, in the spring yes, when someone decides to upgrade but now not so much. Just a thought to give you some relief while you source out a good used boiler.

 

[guts and glory]

The deeper down the rabbit hole I go the more I see the wisdom in your words... Been reading more and more... What's that saying "fools rush in"? A wood stove will put a cork in the oil flow for sure, I have a friend who'll gladly deliver split wood for the first season...There's a few decent wood stoves locally. Thanks again for the guidance! A guy I work with was building boilers a few years ago, maybe I can buy some plans off him and weld up something better than a Greenwood in the long run.

Besides saving money I also love a good scavenger hunt!

 

[Frozen Canuck]

maybe I can buy some plans off him and weld up something better than a

I suggest you skip that/resist the urge, unless you have a thorough understanding of all the sciences involved. Don't get me wrong we have members here who I am sure dream thermodynamics laws/designs as well as hydronics, heated fluids under pressure, thermal expansion of any number of materials etc. They just think that way & thanks to all of them, as they have saved more than a handful of hopefuls from building a bomb in their basement while their family sleeps upstairs. A thousand ways to do it wrong so to speak.

If it were me I would continue the treasure hunt for a good used boiler, post a link here or ask a question about an "I just found" boiler & I am sure members will give you some honest feedback. Plenty of members are on their third/fourth boiler & have a wealth of been there done that to share, most importantly what not to do. Good luck in the search.

 

[JP11]

Put your enthusiasm into wood gathering and splitting during the days. Researching here at night. That will pay off the most.

Best advice I can give you.

JP

 

[flyingcow]

Yes, what JP11 and Frozen Canuck said.

No matter what you use for a wood burner, you really need seasoned wood. Stuff that has been cut/split/stacked for at least a year. Any type of gasser needs dry wood. Wood stove you can cheat a bit, but plan on a keeping an eye on the stove pipe and chimney for periodical cleanings.

 

[guts and glory]

Put your enthusiasm into wood gathering and splitting during the days. Researching here at night. That will pay off the most.

Best advice I can give you.

JP

Lmao...I probably do seem pretty enthusiastic for someone setting up to cut, split and stack wood

 

[JP11]

You're among friends here. I cut and split for almost a year before I even owned a wood appliance. You won't regret getting ahead on wood. It's the biggest performance enhancer next to more insulation for your home.

JP

 

[BoilerMan]

If your still looking into stoves, look for one with secondary air tubes or a cat stove, basically any EPA stove. Having run many stoves, an EPA stove is much cleaner burning and throws more heat/cord than anything else. Remember the keys to wood efficiency is smoke-free burning and good heat exchange. Most home-made stoves/boilers have plenty of heat exchange but creosote up because of the rich mixture (too much fuel, which is smoke) and not enough air. You seem mechanically inclined, a wood appliance is no different than a carburetor, you need the correct air/fuel mixture of else your mileage will suffer and a total lack of power to boot.

Smoke if fuel...........

TS

 

[Boiler Installer]

Hi Joe,

I see you are looking into a new heat source for your colonial. I can tell you the Model 500 with water coils (Hybrid) will fall short in your application. Those stoves are good for small homes under 2500 sq ft (including the area they are installed in) When sizing an indoor boiler for your home, you really need to calculate in the basement area. That would probably get you up to 3900 sq ft. The boiler sitting in your basement will radiate heat and that heat is part of the total btu output provided by the boiler. Some boilers are insulated and some are not. Certainly one that has insulation will retain more of the heat in the water jacket of the boiler for use in the living area. A house your size will probably require about 150k btu output heating unit. You could look at the label on your oil boiler and there will be a btu output rating on it.

I do install wood burning boilers and can tell you the Thermo Control boiler has been a very popular model throughout North America. The model 500 is a first generation gasification stove that is rated at 76% efficiency and that is a certifiable number that Thermo Control has been tested to back in the 70's. They call it their Legacy line. It has been used in all of the indoor/outdoor stoves and boilers they have been making for the whole time they have been in business. The design hasn't really changed much except a few small improvements since then. If you search on this site, you will always find people who own em have good things to say about them and then there are those who don't own them or have "never" heard of them who are always directing others toward the newer 2nd generation gasification stoves. Tarm has always been stiff competition for Thermo Control and probably the only other stove that was close in the efficiency area. Tarms are made overseas and the Thermo Control is made here in the states. There are 100s of thousands of Thermo Control stoves out there heating many homes even 30 years later.

You will find that all 2nd generation gasification stoves have a high degree of cleaning and maintenance that the older 1st generation stoves don't have. The newer stoves have 1000's of dollars of electronics that control all kinds of sensors and blowers. They all utilize expensive refractories that are usually proprietary to each manufacturer meaning expensive service cost's down the road.

It is true that if a stove can burn all the smoke it will be considered more efficient but that doesn't always mean appliance efficiency. The most important point is how much of the heat created by the burning of the smoke do you get to use as apposed to what is being sent up the chimney. I have seen wood burning boiler companies making claims of 92% efficient. That is kind of a mis-statement. I have to believe they are talking about how well they can convert wood into clean air. NYSERDA has been funding wood burning boiler companies who are trying to develop stoves that will be 86% efficient. Can you imagine they are doing this while all these other wood burning boiler companies have stoves that are 92% efficient?

Smokeless doesn't always mean better. The best you will get from a 2nd generation gasifier is 86% or so, as opposed to the old maintenance free 76% models that have been being made for 40 years. I also want to point out that the 76% models burn very clean for a good portion of the time they are burning just 10% less than the 2nd generation burners.

For someone to say the First generation gasifiers were behind in the times in 1979 is a joke. They were what started the whole gasification craze back in the 70's during the first oil crises days. They are what the mark has been all the way until now (40 years later) and now we are getting 86% instead of 76%. A regular wood stove with no secondary chamber is 40% efficient. 76% is nearly double that. Now we will get 10% extra 40 years later.

I want to point out that if you were to install a indoor wood burning boiler, you could do it for under 10k. If you go with a 2nd generation stove yes it will cost you 15-20k because that is the difference in the cost of the boiler. The parts are all the same. If you put the stove outside you will spend 8.00-10.00 per foot for underground pipe but you will spend less on the chimney. You will use more wood having the stove outside your house also.

If you were to install it yourself you could do it for the cost of a boiler and the materials. The materials being a chimney if you don't have one in your basement or garage and some pipe and a pump. Yea you will also want to ad a low water cutoff and an expansion tank and a few valves. You could have a boiler installed for about 2000.00 materials and labor professionally not including the chimney.

I do think you would be making a big mistake trying to heat your colonial with just a wood stove. It will make you feel like a slave. It is not the same as using a wood burning boiler. Using a 1st generation boiler will keep you warmer than you have ever been and you will probably burn about 8 cord of wood. Using a second generation boiler you will probably burn 7 cords but you will have constant cleaning and maintenance to go with it not to mention the higher cost of the stove to begin with.

I urge you to scan this site and read the endless threads on 2nd generation gasifiers of people trying to get them to burn just right. Not to mention the large water storage tanks required and the constant restarting of the fire. 2nd generation gasifiers are where the world is going. I do think it is a step in the right direction but like anything new, it will make a lot of people pay to get it perfected. If you want something that is tested and tried, stick with ole reliable as long as you can.

Do your homework

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

I urge you to scan this site and read the endless threads on 2nd generation gasifiers of people trying to get them to burn just right. Not to mention the large water storage tanks required and the constant restarting of the fire. 2nd generation gasifiers are where the world is going. I do think it is a step in the right direction but like anything new, it will make a lot of people pay to get it perfected. If you want something that is tested and tried, stick with ole reliable as long as you can.

Welcome to the forum Boiler Installer.
Man, you can write
If we stick with the tested and tried stuff we would still be in the Flintstones era, would you think?
The 2nd generation gassifier is tested and tried already for over 20 years in Europe.
I believe it is time to start using it here in North America.