NoFossil Control System Exploratory Survey

[Nofossil]

I'm getting a lot of pressure on this forum and elsewhere to provide a packaged version of my control system. It's not something I had planned on, and there are a multitude of issues that would have to be dealt with before such a thing could happen. I've been proceeding on the assumption that it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

I'm being driven to re-evaluate that assumption, and I could use some help from the folks on this forum. What I'd like to do is get a sense of what level of 'packagedness' would be most desirable, and what would be a fair price for such a package. Here's what I'm thinking:

System Description
- Enclosure with computer hardware, power supply, and small (2 line text) status display
- Plug-in sensor cable assemblies (up to 8 temperature sensing channels)
- Plug-in remote relay boxes with cables for controlling remote loads (circs etc.)
- Software to control automatic heat source selection, storage charging/discharging, inlet protection, zone priority
- Web interface for status and configuration
- Documentation for most common system configurations

Packaging Options

1) DIY: Parts list, software as disk image, instructions. Minimal email support.

2) 'Heathkit': As above, but all parts provided as kit. No warranty, except for DOA parts. Minimal email support.

3) Assembled Kit: As #2, but assembled and tested. No warranty except DOA. Minimal email support.

4) Commercial product: Assembled, tested, silkscreened graphics, 1 year warranty, support via phone and email, more comprehensive documentation

I,m not soliciting business, just looking for input. If you were at the point where you needed a control system, what would be the lowest packaging level that would be (or would have been) useful to you? Based on your experience and needs, what would be a fair price for it?

Any other suggestions or comments are welcome. I still don't think I want to do this, but I figure I at least ought to have some actual data. Thanks.....

 

[kabbott]

I would be interested in option 1 or 2.
I am perfectly comfortable with hardware and wiring, even making circuit boards but its the software
that is holding me up.
I assume this would be very similar to your system and for option 4 to be worth your time and trouble
I am guessing the price would make it a lot less attractive to me.

When you say "Web interface for status and configuration" does that mean you can control when and at what temp or voltage a sensor
would control a relay or whatever.I guess I'm asking could you write generic code that will work for many different systems(heating systems)
and the variables could be configured via a web interface?

I have no idea what dollar amount would be worth your trouble but If were talking a few hundred over the cost of a controller board and an
interface board count me in.

 

[chuck172]

I can't really say I'm interested at this time. This is my first year burning and I'm still trying to get the kinks out. I might be interested in the future after my system is more stable.

 

[deerefanatic]

Option 3 or 4 in my humble opinion..... I don't relay have the time/inclination to assemble a microcomputer........

I see it this way: A nice enclosure with computer, power, etc inside; conduit knockouts here and there.... Software loaded onto computer and tested for basic functionility. Interface card for say, 8 temperature inputs and 10 or 12 on/off inputs (like heat demand inputs, thermostats, push-to-start controls, etc) and at least 8 relay outputs with optional upgrade for twice that many.... (16 isn't too many if you have pumps, zone valves, heat ex, etc...)

That's my thought on the deal.. If I go into producing my oudoor gasifier, I WILL be contacting you for a controller for that, but in that case, it will be the same thing over and over.....)

 

[SteveJ]

I already have a NFCS in the works

I think you already do 1) through this forum.

Also, don't you have a day job?

For your questions, I think 4) would apply to the masses both for time and usability.

For me, I have preferred 1) but I am a software developer and like tinkering.

I think the web interface could be provided as a service by you or your company to provide system tweaking and remote monitoring - kind of an ADT service for people that are away.

As far as experience and price, I have about $500 for parts (TS-7260, TS-DIO 64, TS-9700 (2), temperture sensors, thermocouples, etc.) and the software has been provided for free - yes free - from a very cool site (http://www.nofossil.org/controlsw.html).

I would think pricing points for the options you suggest are dependent on a site evaluation - every system would have to be slightly different based on heat sources, heat loads, storage and comfort level.

For a system like yours, I would be willing to pay:
1) $100 plus a per incident support fee.
2) $750 for kit and a per incident support fee.
3) $1000 for assembled kit and a per incident support fee.
4) $1500 for commercial product with an option for extended annual support for $150/yr.

Also, it seems like your system would allow for remote monitoring, tweaking for a monthly fee or a per incident fee. Maybe several plans starting at $19.95/mo.

Other comments:
1) I think this would become a 24/7 operation
2) I think that an on-site evaluation would be necessary for many systems
3) I think that detailed installation instructions may be difficult - for connecting relays into exisitng pump and valve controls, for connecting thermistors and thermocouples, etc.

Let me know where I need to send my check
Steve

 

[stee6043]

I'd be interested in options 1 or 2 but the "minimal email support" would worry me a bit! I'm very high maintainence!

Also depends on cost, of course....

 

[Eric Johnson]

Just as a practical matter, nofo, I think you'd be ahead to sell the idea/software/etc. to one of the mfgrs and let them worry about marketing and support. Unless you go through the whole patent protection process, what's to stop somebody from knocking you off? Not that it's any of my business and I know that's not what you were asking. And I imagine you've already explored that angle.

 

[Duetech]

To be honest I am so far behind the curve it looks like a straight line. I was thinking of asking for some help but now you've up and got commercial on me. I guess first off I need a boiler glossary/dictionary to help me understand the terminologies used here with LARGE PRINT and BIG, slo-o-ow moving pictures pictures. You know...Like "what's a compooder and it's soft where? I guess I don't know what you should do but it sounds like you're able...Cave2k

 

[deerefanatic]

Yah, he could sell it to Tekmar, and let them mark the thing up 10,000%...

I think it'd be best to make each unit custom to what the individual wants, and charge them the same as he would one of his bread&butter;customers..... It wouldn't take much being he's got the core software to flash a unit, tweak a few settings for that particular customer, and ship it out the door with simple wiring instructions.

Or, if it's within your scope of programming ability, program the thing to be entirely configurable from the web interface..... Though I would think that would be A LOT of work to get programmed initially.....

 

[pybyr]

Just as a practical matter, nofo, I think you'd be ahead to sell the idea/software/etc. to one of the mfgrs and let them worry about marketing and support. Unless you go through the whole patent protection process, what's to stop somebody from knocking you off? Not that it's any of my business and I know that's not what you were asking. And I imagine you've already explored that angle.

I'm not sure that any of this is patentable in any event; a patent generally has to involve some form of distinctly new technology or significantly different and creative usage of an existing technology for a distinctly new purpose.

This is all about doing known stuff in better ways, which is absolutely excellent, but not necessarily, in my unpaid opinion, likely to be patent-able

 

[pybyr]

I'm getting a lot of pressure on this forum and elsewhere to provide a packaged version of my control system. It's not something I had planned on, and there are a multitude of issues that would have to be dealt with before such a thing could happen. I've been proceeding on the assumption that it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

I'm being driven to re-evaluate that assumption, and I could use some help from the folks on this forum. What I'd like to do is get a sense of what level of 'packagedness' would be most desirable, and what would be a fair price for such a package. Here's what I'm thinking:

System Description
- Enclosure with computer hardware, power supply, and small (2 line text) status display
- Plug-in sensor cable assemblies (up to 8 temperature sensing channels)
- Plug-in remote relay boxes with cables for controlling remote loads (circs etc.)
- Software to control automatic heat source selection, storage charging/discharging, inlet protection, zone priority
- Web interface for status and configuration
- Documentation for most common system configurations

Packaging Options

1) DIY: Parts list, software as disk image, instructions. Minimal email support.

2) 'Heathkit': As above, but all parts provided as kit. No warranty, except for DOA parts. Minimal email support.

3) Assembled Kit: As #2, but assembled and tested. No warranty except DOA. Minimal email support.

4) Commercial product: Assembled, tested, silkscreened graphics, 1 year warranty, support via phone and email, more comprehensive documentation

I,m not soliciting business, just looking for input. If you were at the point where you needed a control system, what would be the lowest packaging level that would be (or would have been) useful to you? Based on your experience and needs, what would be a fair price for it?

Any other suggestions or comments are welcome. I still don't think I want to do this, but I figure I at least ought to have some actual data. Thanks.....

I vote for the "Heathkit" option.

I _could_ find time to build that option in a way that I _can't_ likely pull off in terms of chasing down and corralling all the parts separately in order to follow/replicate your model from scratch

it also seems to me that "that" particular level of packaging and support filters out some of the folks who might be the biggest headaches as customers, because the product will only be accessible for use by, and likely to be purchased by, people who already have the experience and confidence level to "dive right in under the hood" and have some chance of knowing their way around some of the technologies that this type of product will have to be hooked up to and with.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 and thanks for considering doing this

 

[Nofossil]

Lot of responses - thanks. Some clarification:

The web interface would provide a way to see system status as well as a way to set up the control rules (what criteria cause a particular relay to open or close) and temperature setpoints. Web frontends is part of what I do - no biggie.

My baseline design could handle up to 32 relays, 8 two-stage thermostats, 16 miscellaneous inputs (aquastats or whatever), and 8 temperature sensors. I'd provide high-voltage utilty boxes for power relays (just steel junction boxes) with low voltage cable to control them.

All cabling (relay control, thermostats, temperature sensors, and zone valve control) would be standard ethernet cable with standard ethernet connectors.

Trevor is right - nothing patentable.

Steve J is also right - the materials come to $500 or so. Any assembly labor would have to be added, along with some amortization of software development effort.

There's no way I could provide any significant degree of customization, at least not without getting to a breathtaking price point. However, I do like the idea of an ongoing monitoring / service contract. I could easily tweak or update sotware remotely, and the system could email me when it has problems. I then call: "Did you know that the zone valve for zone #2 is not working?"

I'm doing one of these for a friend. I'll do it with an eye towards what it would take to make it a product, at least at the Heathkit level.

 

[twofer]

I'm not ready for a system like yours.........yet but when I am options 2 and 3 look the best.

 

[penfrydd]

I have some experience with an indoor wood boiler; Eshland from '85 to '92, then oil until a few weeks from now, when I'll be getting my Tarm.

Never had storage before; never had to interface with oil. I'm not assuming I need all that you are offering. $1500 buys a lot of wood, for those unfortunate enough to not own their own wood lot. You'd have to prove a payback of seven years or less. That's always been the sign of a good deal. Even longer, given current interest rates. But...there does have to be a payback, otherwise...why bother?

 

[MrEd]

Count me in as interested...not sure what price I would pay, but defintely would consider it if/when a "product" becomes available. I'd likely compare it to whatever else might be available at the same price point (if anything), before making a firm commitment.

 

[TCaldwell]

Nofo, i believe there is a not too large but dedicated market base for a product like this, sort of like our cool house approach, that probabaly requires a fair ammt of artisan interface for the public sector to have confidence. that said a monitoring option and tech support are important, maybe not only different levels of the product delivery as in choices 1/4 but also a basic but expandable get in the door controller option.As customers outgrow a basic controller they have options in house. the function controls and temp monitoring are 1 avenue, but i believe even a larger oportunity might be in monitoring and manipulating combustion effiency, as is the desired options on european boilers. they all seem to incorporate a basic controller, thermocouples and lambda sensor. there are no usa manufacturers currently that have a retro fit for the residential biomass market.

 

[dzook]

I would be willing to be a customer. I like the idea of purchasing support, a yearly subscription email support option until understanding it completely. maybe options for per incident support at higher cost. the kit with instructions would get me the inspiration to get it implanted as i drooled over you system for more than a year. i had been planning to get the parts and strike out oin my own. but having someone gather known parts that work together is very valuable. cost in the 750 range acceptable plus support as needed.

 

[VeggieFarmer]

Very pertinent thread. It seems to me that the lack of a centralized, coordinated control system is preventing wood gasification from reaching a wider audience.

Besides loading wood and removing ashes, I find myself tinkering frequently with the inlet protection valves, the aquastats that control the LP backup boiler, the fan settings on the EKO, the DHW mixing valve temp, etc. And though I have much less technical aptitude than many of the people in this forum, I think I have significantly more than the average person.

So the need for a NoFo-style, centralized control system seems clear.

A second possible market for such a system, besides the contributors to this forum, would be plumbers and HVAC installers. If Cozy Heat or equivalent (or NoFo directly) were to offer such a system, probably either #2 or #3, I think sales would be good. This would also mean that NoFo wouldn’t have to go to all the trouble and expense of the fully-consumer-ready, much-hand-holding-required, option #4.

Although I did much of the legwork and research involved in installing our system, I hired a plumber in the end to do much of the technical work. I spec’ed the components and helped design the schematic but then turned it over to the pros. If NoFo’s controller had been available, either directly or through Cozy Heat, I would have spec’ed that as well, along with the EKO boiler and the SSTS tank. I found a reputable, local plumber who was very eager to learn more about gasification but knew less about it than I did, thanks to this forum.

So, here’s another vote for option #2 or option #3, along with the idea of selling/reselling the system to plumber and installers.

 

[Nofossil]

In my spare time, I'm moving slowly forward on this. The major missing piece is a programming technique that allows non-geeks to program it. I have a working prototype now with a web-based programming capability that allows programming via simple menu choices in plain English. (Sorry, Hansson....)

No time frame for productization yet, but I'm gradually moving (or being dragged) in that direction.

 

[sweetheat]

I'm still in the learning curve stage but can see the possibilitys. count me in for #4 sweetheat

 

[SteveJ]

nofossil,

I may be able to help - I develop both desktop and web applications for a living.

So, if you would like someone to work on the interface let me know...

Steve

 

[mpilihp]

Nofo can you explain what your system does? I know it provides monitoring of system temps, status of relays/contacts and so on. I really like the graphs it provides so you can see how the system is working and so you can TWEAK it based on its performance while you are not babysitting it, which is what Ive had to do during the setup time. But Im guessing from your control circuits which show contacts going to the controller in them means it is involved in controlling the system.

I LIKE the graphs for the reporting but I live by the KISS principal. So if I can make the system work with just aqustats, relays and thermostats; thats what I would prefer to do.

I plan on adding storage to my system next summer and the only issue I see Ill have is stopping circulation to the storage tank when its at its peak temp and prevent the wood boiler circulator from circulating water through as it cools off and dropping its temp. Other than that I think my non computer controlled setup (actually yours, the simple storage setup) will work.

~ Phil

 

[fixmyboat]

I'd be very interested in the web based programing. I know how I want it to work but have no programing experience. As a hopeless DIYer a super basic package like #1 would be right up my alley. Parts plus 10-15% and shipping with the option of email support for a fee would be something I would be interested in right now. Thanks NoFossil!

 

[Nofossil]

OK, here's a screenshot of a prototype programming page. It doesn't actually do anything, but I do have a control program that runs on the NCFS and implements the rules shown. I'll be adding timers and some additional capabilities, but this is the basic idea.

I have a whole design document that I'd like some feedback on - PM me if you're interested and willing to help.

Here's the basic idea: The system has data elements that may be physical I/O, user-defined 'virtual outputs' (variables), or user-defined constants.

Programs are made up of two different types of rules. Differential rules deal with comparisons or differences, and logical rules deal with true/false conditions.

All rules act on data elements, and all rules have the same form. This means that rules can be built using a web page with pull-down menus.

The page below shows a simple application. I'll be building more complex applications to see whether simple rules like this are sufficient.

Is this easy enough to understand and use? Feel free to play with the sample page at http://www.nofossil.org/armsw/nfcs/sample.html

 

[Happy]

Hi Nofossil,

Do you have any plans to include support for 1-wire sensors in your system? I think it will be very halpful for people like us who already use 1-wire hardware.1-wire hardware is very easy to install because it can use continuous pair of wire to carry all data across whole system and each piece of hardware have their unique ID like IP address .There are lot of free open source software but nothing is user friendly.I use Misterhouse software right now. Please contact me if you need the hardware for testing .I have following hardware & all are well documented on google :

HA7NET - ETHERNET HOST
TIA8558 - 4 RELAY BOARD BASED ON DS2408 SWITCH SENSOR
18B20 SENSORS
TIA8590 - lCD DISPLAY