Not always the dealers fault

[STOVEGUY11]

These are not multi-billion dollar corporations making alot of these stoves. They do not have tens of thousands of workers assembling and making these stoves. So if every consumer out there this year decided they want a stove, who the heck is going to make them all? Newsflash! They have been making Pellet stoves for decades! There not the best thing since sliced bread. Same with the wood stoves. Maybe people should have thought about this last year and years past. Its not always the dealers fault. Consumers need to take some responsibility for their own actions. All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

 

[kinsmanstoves]

Buy that man a beer.

Eric

 

[MCPO]

These are not multi-billion dollar corporations making alot of these stoves. They do not have tens of thousands of workers assembling and making these stoves. So if every consumer out there this year decided they want a stove, who the heck is going to make them all? Newsflash! They have been making Pellet stoves for decades! There not the best thing since sliced bread. Same with the wood stoves. Maybe people should have thought about this last year and years past. Its not always the dealers fault. Consumers need to take some responsibility for their own actions. All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

So we should feel sorry for the dealers who have all these inflated deposits in their hands and can`t deliver?
Few if any other items demand such up front costs with such a long wait.
No, I don`t think for one minute the consumer needs to take the responsibility for the industry`s failure to meet demand. Dealers are part of this industry too. They saw it coming as well! But I guess it`s easier to blame the customer huh?

 

[kinsmanstoves]

As a stove Dealer, If I would take a deposit for a stove and can not get that stove I would give the money back ASAP. Isn't that not how it works? Am I missing something? I do not offer a NON-REFUNDABLE deposit. That has never happened in my stores.

Has anyone on this forum given money to a Stove Dealer for a stove and the Dealer told them that they would not have a stove? Has that Dealer said, "You are not getting your stove or your money back?". If that is the case, I would seek legal advise from someplace other than a forum.......

Just asking
Eric

 

[STOVEGUY11]

It comes down to the fact that people are afraid of the high costs of heating the home. Have it be oil, natural gas, propane, electric...etc. All of these crucial resources have gone through the roof in cost. So now everyone at the same time has the great idea to purchase an alternative heating appliance. Yet again these are not multi-billion dollar companies. They have 100 + guys making these stoves. Not even close to a 1,000. There going to continue to make these stoves as long as the orders keep coming in. Now these orders are coming in by the thousands. I dont like the situation either, but I do understand how this industry works.

 

[slls]

To me it seems to be a problem of communication between the manufacture and the dealer. The manufacture claims it has given the dealer delivery dates, yet most dealer in the NE can't say when the stoves will be delivered. Some body is lying, all the dealers or just the one manufacture.

 

[STOVEGUY11]

To me it seems to be a problem of communication between the manufacture and the dealer. The manufacture claims it has given the dealer delivery dates, yet most dealer in the NE can't say when the stoves will be delivered. Some body is lying, all the dealers or just the one manufacture.

Yes dealers should have dates of when each unit will be shipped. I think most do.

 

[kinsmanstoves]

From what I see, there is a larger demand for stoves than what the rate of stoves can be made. Yes we know of Harman's issues and that has been addressed over the past few weeks going as far as Harman posting on this forum. Is that "dead horse being kicked again?".

I am sure the other larger stove companies face the same problem i.e. Breckwell, Napoleon, and a few others. Please remember there is more than one stove company out there. There is also more than one Dealer for that stove you want out there. Almost all Stove Manufactors have a Dealer page that does not give you one dealer. Shop around.

Eric

 

[stoveguy2esw]

These are not multi-billion dollar corporations making alot of these stoves. They do not have tens of thousands of workers assembling and making these stoves. So if every consumer out there this year decided they want a stove, who the heck is going to make them all? Newsflash! They have been making Pellet stoves for decades! There not the best thing since sliced bread. Same with the wood stoves. Maybe people should have thought about this last year and years past. Its not always the dealers fault. Consumers need to take some responsibility for their own actions. All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

No, I don`t think for one minute the consumer needs to take the responsibility for the industry`s failure to meet demand. Dealers are part of this industry too. They saw it coming as well! But I guess it`s easier to blame the customer huh?

dealers can only sell what they can buy, if they cannot get the product from the manufacturer because they cannot build them fast enough for the increased demand, why is that the dealers fault? how can the consumer expect a 400+% increase in demand in a single season to be met especially in a seasonal industry? as for manufacturers , a jump of that level simply is a pipe dream, its not like the industry isnt trying , but its not that simple. dealers are caught in the middle between manufacturing and the consumer, im sure they are doing the best they can.

 

[kbjelka]

I was one of those guys who ordered in early June and I was assured by the dealer that availability was not an issue. Well, it is two missed dates later and I am now being told that I'm looking at late October for delivery. Some accurate information up front to set some resonable expections would have been be nice. Seems to me that dealers are more interested in capturing market share than providing accurate dates. If they had told me October up front I might have purchased a different brand from someone who had stock. Now that it's closer to heating season I'm left with limited options. You can't tell me that dealers have no idea what the product availability is.

 

[STOVEGUY11]

I was one of those guys who ordered in early June and I was assured by the dealer that availability was not an issue. Well, it is two missed dates later and I am now being told that I'm looking at late October for delivery. Some accurate information up front to set some resonable expections would have been be nice. Seems to me that dealers are more interested in capturing market share than providing accurate dates. If they had told me October up front I might have purchased a different brand from someone who had stock. Now that it's closer to heating season I'm left with limited options. You can't tell me that dealers have no idea what the product availability is.

At first the dealer was giving you the date they were given. The date was incorrect. But they were going on the word of a company they have probably been doing business with for years. Orders came in by the thousands with all the brands out there. The companies did not get accurate ship dates out compared with how many orders were placed. In my mind pellet stoves are done for 2008. If you have a pellet stove on order now, thats great, I hope they work out for everyone. If you got an early jump you will recieve your stove before it gets cold out. If you order one now your probably not going to see it till sometime 2009.

 

[MishMouse]

People need to remember that stoves are not watches and that they take time to build.
A good stove will last you 20+ years without any issues.
Quality needs to be followed very strictly on each stove, if not you will get a death box.
What would you rather have a stove company that meets demand by cutting corners, putting you your house and your family at risk, or a company that makes you wait and produces a stove that will last you many years?

 

[scotsman]

I was one of those guys who ordered in early June and I was assured by the dealer that availability was not an issue. Well, it is two missed dates later and I am now being told that I'm looking at late October for delivery. Some accurate information up front to set some resonable expections would have been be nice. Seems to me that dealers are more interested in capturing market share than providing accurate dates. If they had told me October up front I might have purchased a different brand from someone who had stock. Now that it's closer to heating season I'm left with limited options. You can't tell me that dealers have no idea what the product availability is.

At first the dealer was giving you the date they were given. The date was incorrect. But they were going on the word of a company they have probably been doing business with for years. Orders came in by the thousands with all the brands out there. The companies did not get accurate ship dates out compared with how many orders were placed. In my mind pellet stoves are done for 2008. If you have a pellet stove on order now, thats great, I hope they work out for everyone. If you got an early jump you will recieve your stove before it gets cold out. If you order one now your probably not going to see it till sometime 2009.

There is always a lag time between the spike in demand and the curve of supply. Until the stove (or any other) industry becomes clairvoyant, it will always be that way. Even those who foresee/anticipate the coming "events" are always cautious about jumping into the market until they have some idea of what that market will be. Even if they knew everything precisely, they could not tool up and go into production to meet the spike. By the time most realize it, they are way behind and we have a situation like we're seeing now.

Numerous historical examples could be called to mind, IF I could think of any--maybe 8-track tapes, which didn't last very long at all. Perhaps the DOT COM era? VHS vs. BETA? The "Tickle Me Elmo" dolls?? When we went from wood to fossil fuels?? Hummm are we being sent a message here? Just wondering . . .

 

[Steveo]

These issues are not limited to stove manufacturers. Anybody that makes something out of steel is also at the mercy of the steel dealers/manufacturers and China is buying up all the steel. Also with the economy sucking so bad manufacturers are reluctant to keep product on the shelf and are building products when they are ordered. I am in the weighing industry and I am seeing lead times for product increasing when everything used to be on the shelf. Manufacturers dont want to keep money on the shelf. I remember back in 1993 I bought my first Harley Davidson and I had to wait a year for it! So if you are buying a stove this year hurry up and wait.

 

[slls]

If China is buying up all the steel, my stove should coming right along.

 

[webbie]

About 0% of people "saw this coming" back at the end of last winter - March, for instance. As of that date, the industry was almost dead.....

There is no praise, there is no blame....if a consumer wants something, they have to put up with what it takes to get it. The dealers and manufacturers also have to do this.

I think one point stoveguy is getting at is that MONEY (buying something NOW) is not always the smartest and best decision when problems occur. Planning is essential for long term lower energy use, and those who cannot get a stove instantly might want to consider upgrading their windows, insulation and/or other aspects of their home......it might actually end up saving more money per dollar spent (and less work).

The "gotta have it now or the world is coming to an end" aspect of our consumer culture can sometimes go too far.

 

[BrotherBart]

Who else out of the plethora of pellet stove makers besides Quad and Harman are missing deliveries? Sounds like the rest have stoves on the floor in stores and deliveries inbound. I only have contact with two manufacturers and they are busting butt but nobody here is carping about not getting their stoves. And no, neither one of them is ESW. Who really has to be bustin given that they took on extra outlets this year and have the Century wood stove gap to fill in the home improvement stores.

This starts to sound more like a fixation with two brands than anything else.

 

[pelletfan]

add on another Manufacturer: St. Croix which took on too much and can't delivery.
And to add more to it, they increased their prices too.

 

[JustWood]

These are not multi-billion dollar corporations making alot of these stoves. They do not have tens of thousands of workers assembling and making these stoves. So if every consumer out there this year decided they want a stove, who the heck is going to make them all? Newsflash! They have been making Pellet stoves for decades! There not the best thing since sliced bread. Same with the wood stoves. Maybe people should have thought about this last year and years past. Its not always the dealers fault. Consumers need to take some responsibility for their own actions. All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

No, I don`t think for one minute the consumer needs to take the responsibility for the industry`s failure to meet demand. Dealers are part of this industry too. They saw it coming as well! But I guess it`s easier to blame the customer huh?

dealers can only sell what they can buy, if they cannot get the product from the manufacturer because they cannot build them fast enough for the increased demand, why is that the dealers fault? how can the consumer expect a 400+% increase in demand in a single season to be met especially in a seasonal industry? as for manufacturers , a jump of that level simply is a pipe dream, its not like the industry isnt trying , but its not that simple. dealers are caught in the middle between manufacturing and the consumer, im sure they are doing the best they can.

Todays consumer has a Burger King mentallity. "Have it your way" and right NOW. Drive thru style.

So in all reality ,anyone with a stove order/pricing issue should blame Burger King.

 

[BrotherBart]

So in all reality ,anyone with a stove order/pricing issue should blame Burger King.

At least the employees are clean.

http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2008/08/burger-king-doe.html

 

[MCPO]

These are not multi-billion dollar corporations making alot of these stoves. They do not have tens of thousands of workers assembling and making these stoves. So if every consumer out there this year decided they want a stove, who the heck is going to make them all? Newsflash! They have been making Pellet stoves for decades! There not the best thing since sliced bread. Same with the wood stoves. Maybe people should have thought about this last year and years past. Its not always the dealers fault. Consumers need to take some responsibility for their own actions. All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

No, I don`t think for one minute the consumer needs to take the responsibility for the industry`s failure to meet demand. Dealers are part of this industry too. They saw it coming as well! But I guess it`s easier to blame the customer huh?

dealers can only sell what they can buy, if they cannot get the product from the manufacturer because they cannot build them fast enough for the increased demand, why is that the dealers fault? how can the consumer expect a 400+% increase in demand in a single season to be met especially in a seasonal industry? as for manufacturers , a jump of that level simply is a pipe dream, its not like the industry isnt trying , but its not that simple. dealers are caught in the middle between manufacturing and the consumer, im sure they are doing the best they can.

Todays consumer has a Burger King mentallity. "Have it your way" and right NOW. Drive thru style.

So in all reality ,anyone with a stove order/pricing issue should blame Burger King.

Let`s not exxagerate with silly a analogy please! My point was that the consumer isn`t to blame as the OP stated. His expectations of getting a stove sometime this season was not unreasonable regardless of the demand , especially after having to finance the dealers business by laying out a good chunk of change as a deposit. The industry is to blame and the dealer has to share the blame since he is a part of it too. Obviously communications between the factory and the dealer stinks and certainly demonstrates the right hand doesn`t know what the left hand is doing in this business.

The simple solution is to go to HD, Lowes, or your local hardware store and get an Englander. It`s available and at a fair price. Possibly not the prettiest or top of the line but it will throw the same heat . No big chunk of dough up front and no worries about who in what district will service it.

 

[Corie]

add on another Manufacturer: St. Croix which took on too much and can't delivery.
And to add more to it, they increased their prices too.

OF COURSE THEY'VE INCREASED THEIR PRICES!

Do you realize steel cost to manufacturers has nearly doubled since last season? Not to mention every component has become more expensive because of increased trucking and manufacturing costs.

Most solid fuel companies are only a few years past just being Mom and Pop companies. They simply don't have the capitol to hold 15,000+ stoves in inventory IF the market should slow down that year. Every company works with it's vendors to establish sales projections and then builds to them. When oil shoots to record prices in early summer and people want their stoves right NOW, it simply doesn't work.

If you want a solid fuel appliance badly enough, be patient and it will come. If you think dropping $2000, $3000, or $4000 right now is going to fix your high home heating costs, take a look at the big picture. Consumer chicken little mentality shouldn't be blamed on manufacturer's doing their best just to keep their heads above water. We had the same situation after Katrina a few years ago, then oil prices fell, the bottom fell out of the market and a lot of companies suffered because of it.

 

[JustWood]

add on another Manufacturer: St. Croix which took on too much and can't delivery.
And to add more to it, they increased their prices too.

OF COURSE THEY'VE INCREASED THEIR PRICES!

Do you realize steel cost to manufacturers has nearly doubled since last season? Not to mention every component has become more expensive because of increased trucking and manufacturing costs.

Most solid fuel companies are only a few years past just being Mom and Pop companies. They simply don't have the capitol to hold 15,000+ stoves in inventory IF the market should slow down that year. Every company works with it's vendors to establish sales projections and then builds to them. When oil shoots to record prices in early summer and people want their stoves right NOW, it simply doesn't work.

If you want a solid fuel appliance badly enough, be patient and it will come. If you think dropping $2000, $3000, or $4000 right now is going to fix your high home heating costs, take a look at the big picture. Consumer chicken little mentality shouldn't be blamed on manufacturer's doing their best just to keep their heads above water. We had the same situation after Katrina a few years ago, then oil prices fell, the bottom fell out of the market and a lot of companies suffered because of it.

That no B.S. about steel prices. I have been shopping for a truck body since January. The price I was quoted last week was 25% higher than in January FOB their plant. I guess I'll try to find a used one.

 

[sinnian]

All we keep hearing on here is consumers that put there deposits down on June 1st. Ok thats good and all, but at that point most of these companies were well back ordered well through 09.

Problem seems to be that the customer was not told at the time that their unit would be back ordered until '09, but a month+ later. YET, the dealer, who IS the customers connection with the manufacturer still took the deposit.

In your little scenario to want to kick the consumer who is already down you have failed to realize that most did not order their stoves on a whim. But probably spent a considerable amount of time researching their needs, and then stoves that would fit those needs.

 

[webbie]

The industry is to blame and the dealer has to share the blame since he is a part of it too. Obviously communications between the factory and the dealer stinks and certainly demonstrates the right hand doesn`t know what the left hand is doing in this business.

The simple solution is to go to HD, Lowes, or your local hardware store and get an Englander. It`s available and at a fair price. Possibly not the prettiest or top of the line but it will throw the same heat . No big chunk of dough up front and no worries about who in what district will service it.

We should start calling this the silly analogy and dubious advice forum!

Repeat after me:
1. A customer does not have a "right" to buy a stove that does not exist. If demand exceeds supply (for whatever reason), then stoves can not be had. Each manufacturers has the right to make 1/4, 1/2 or 4x the stoves they made last year - PERIOD. Customers have the right to buy these.

2. All our problems will not be sold by buying a big box pellet stove, which has no in-house service, advice, installation and may be 10 years behind the time. Sure, I think the new Englanders will be up to date....but much of the stuff in the stores now is not current technology.

There are MANY pellets stoves, from englander to magnum to country flame (and dozens of other brands available)......

This is not to say there have not been some communication problems between dealers, customers and manufacturers. Chit happens. If a customer is not happy, they should be able to get their deposit back and lesson learned......and, if they apologize to the customer, so much the better.