Not your standard situation looking for reccomendations

[mcdougy]

First off Hello to all:

I am a minimal burner and need advice please.
Heres the situation:
Insurance company is asking for pics of our wood heat source. Our current wood heat source for this HUNT CAMP is a 22 yr old homemade 5/16 plate welded stove with a oven on the side of the firebox.
It works nice actually perfect for our camp.
But it is not ulc listed obviously and will not pass the insurance requirements.
We will have to replace it and this is where I would like some help.


The camp is 750sq ft

It is fairly well insulated

We are there hunting only 3 weeks of the year. mid oct and 2 weeks early november sometimes may show up in deep winter snowmobiling for 2-3 days

Cutting wood for a day up there is something we all enjoy and is usually a years supply at least.

There is no hydro or water,but do run a small generator and the camp is plumbed for propane.

All roasts,chickens, turkeys and such are cooked in wood oven.



Soo.. what "approved stove" do you recommend for our camp.

our budget is capped at $1000

were thinking that we could find a conventional wood stove with a flat top to put a roasting pan on top?

wondering if the "new" style or (epa) stoves get hot enough for cooking on top of them?

If a "old" style stove is the best fit, which model seems to stand the test of time or what problems to look for?

Again, this is needed as much for cooking as it is heating.

We think a " approved " wood cook stove is beyond our budget.

We are "not against" a used stove.


Thanks for your help
Matt

 

[begreen]

An EPA stove gets plenty hot enough for cooking, 600F stove top temps are not untypical. But they require fully seasoned wood to achieve that temp. If you are splitting in the summer for burning in the fall then you may be better off with a pre-eps stove. How is the chimney setup at this cabin. If it is short (under 15') then that is another issue. Question is, will the insurance co accept a pre-eps stove? Will the insurance co accept any wood stove given how far this place is from the nearest hydrant?

 

[mcdougy]

Thanks for the reply: The wood is definitely seasoned, it is cut split stacked and covered in a sunny spot for 2-3 years before we get to that pile to burn. The chimney is a straight interior run through the ceiling then roof. The room height is 8' .... It is single wall black pipe. Then there is the supported "collar" at the ceiling to accept the double wall insulated stainless pipe. It travels through the truss space of approx. 4' then another 5' above the metal roof. All this located approx. 5' off the wall of the 16' wide camp. We would probably be about 14' or so of pipe total but would not be against adding a piece above the roof line.

As far as insurance goes..yes they are ok with no hydrant or water...so far. There are many camps in this type of situation in northern ontario and personally I have not heard of insurance companies declining them for the "no hydrant" scenario. I'm the first to admit that I don't know everything though. As far as a non eps stove I believe all they are wanting is a warnock Hershey type tag and are not worried about the emissions. We will more than likely have to get a "wett" inspection also at some point. The camp is valued at $85k for replacement so we would like to continue with insurance for this reason also.

 

[begreen]

I would look at the Pacific Energy Super stove. It should work ok with a 14ft chimney. There are stove top ovens that might work here. They show up at thrift stores and on eBay. Or try Lehmans.

(broken link removed to https://www.lehmans.com/p-2633-stove-top-portable-oven.aspx)

 

[webby3650]

Napoleon makes a stove with removable cook top plates. It works pretty good. A buddy of mine heats with one and cooks on it pretty regularly.
(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/1150-wood-burning-stove/)

 

[mcdougy]

Are these considered cat or non cat stoves and within a 1000$ budget?

 

[Grisu]

Are these considered cat or non cat stoves and within a 1000$ budget?

Both stoves are non-cat and the PE Super is certainly above $1000 (~$1600); the Napoleon probably, too. Napoleons usually like good draft; your 14 ft pipe may not be enough for that one.

I am not aware of any new cat stove for less than $1000. A cheaper option than the Pacific Energy Super is the PE True North. It has a different baffle system and will probably not quite get the long burn times of the Super but should still give you an overnight burn. You could also take a look at a Drolet stove. (broken link removed to http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/stoves) Anything with a firebox above 2 cu ft should give you an overnight burn. If you are ok with feeding your stove during the night, a smaller one will also do as your camp is not that large. My guess is that is what you are used to do anyway with your current one. What kind of hearth do you have? A cheap option for a small stove is the Englander NC-13 but it needs a hearth with a r-value of 2.0.

 

[Jags]

For more utilitarian styles also review US Stove and Century and maybe even the Vogelzang "Performer". Watch Vogelzang though - they still have several models that are EPA exempt and I would step away from those.

 

[bag of hammers]

Insurance company asked for pics here too (also in Ontario) - I sent them a ton of pics - every part of the install plus all the specs (cut and paste from manual) etc. - even pics of the WH / InterTek tags, etc. They had insured me for years and there are zero issues with the install, the agent thought it should be a wash based on the file I sent them - but they wanted a WETT inspection anyway last year or no policy (I guess the insurance game is changing). Got the same story from other companies (I switched last year). My 2c - don't be surprised if they ask for the inspection regardless of what you install or the pics, etc.

 

[smokedragon]

Consider something from Englander (NC 30 or smaller) they can usually be had for around your budget and are plenty of stove.

Perhaps something like
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200393570_200393570

http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/century-heating-fw2700-wood-stove/0000000006731

Check out SBI, they are a canadian company
(broken link removed to http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/stoves/medium)

There are many stoves to be had in the under 1000 range that will heat that sq footage. All of them will be secondary burn, but with a free standing stove cooking on it will be no problem. Check local retailers/suppliers.

Good luck.

 

[begreen]

Napoleon makes a stove with removable cook top plates. It works pretty good. A buddy of mine heats with one and cooks on it pretty regularly.
(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/1150-wood-burning-stove/)

Good suggestion. I didn't mention Napoleon because they usually need a min. 16ft chimney to work well, but if adding some chimney (and a roof brace) is not an issue this would be a nice stove. For under $1000 I would look at the Vogelzang Durango and the PE True North TN19. Both of these stoves have a deeper flat top as compared to the mid-sized Drolet or Century. A deep flat top will better accommodate a stove top oven if that is desired.

 

[Owen1508]

For more utilitarian styles also review US Stove and Century and maybe even the Vogelzang "Performer". Watch Vogelzang though - they still have several models that are EPA exempt and I would step away from those.

All the Vogelzang stoves that are approved for use in Canada are EPA certified (Shiloh, performer and the ponderosa) except for the boxwood style cast iron ones.
As far as USSC the two that are Canadian approved and EPA certified within your requirements ($) are the 2000 and 2500.
The EPA exempt ones have to maintain a 35:1 air to fuel ratio, or minimum burn rates less then 5 kg/hr. If they don't then they are subjuct to EPA regulations.

 

[Owen1508]

For under $1000 I would look at the Vogelzang Durango .

Sorry BG but it's not approved for use in The Great White North.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for that info, it's surprising. The Durango is EPA certified and ok for strict WA state.

 

[Owen1508]

Thanks for that info, it's surprising. The Durango is EPA certified and ok for strict WA state.

Yeah I'm tracking down as to why myself. It suprises me as well

 

[DougA]

Stupid question: Do you really need insurance on a hunt camp?

If so, I would check out kijiji for used camp stoves. Not sure what area you are in so you will have to search a bit. Here are a few that came up:
Brand new PE just over your budget $1050. : http://www.kijiji.ca/v-heater-humid...ial/583927958?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
$350 with EPA certified in Sudbury: http://www.kijiji.ca/v-stove-oven-r...ove-w-3-cords-of-wood-epa-certified/579816377

Keep in mind that you will almost certainly need WETT certified installation. I agree with 'bag of hammers', the photos are just a tactic to force a full WETT inspection. That may be impossible if your camp is remote. My brother in law had a similar problem in a cottage in Temagami and the stove was OK, but the new chimney and inspection was waaay over your limit just on it's own. He had to completely rebuild the hearth and the roof area.

Maybe insurance is not so stupid a question.

 

[webby3650]

Good suggestion. I didn't mention Napoleon because they usually need a min. 16ft chimney to work well, but if adding some chimney (and a roof brace) is not an issue this would be a nice stove. For under $1000 I would look at the Vogelzang Durango and the PE True North TN19. Both of these stoves have a deeper flat top as compared to the mid-sized Drolet or Century. A deep flat top will better accommodate a stove top oven if that is desired.

We have one left on clearance for $1,300. I wonder what shipping cost would be to Ontario?

 

[smokedragon]

Do you really need insurance on a hunt camp?

Good question

More stupid question.......If you like what you have currently, why not see if an inspection of the current setup would satisfy your insurance before you buy a new stove??

 

[mcdougy]

Insurance.....yes we need it in my opinion. The camp is remote, but close to a river which is a canoe route. Visitors do occasionally stop in. All of us up there have wives and kids. The liability insurance is important. Fire insurance is important only in case of a fire. If that were to happen, clean up would be very costly and replacing is also difficult due to location. So in short yes insurance is really a must in my eyes.

 

[DougA]

In that case your $1K limit may be impossible if you have to comply to normal Ontario insurance standards for a wood burning device. The only way would be to find both used stove and chimney on Kijiji that still has the proper labels and ensure that the installation you do yourself is compliant. A lot will depend upon whether your insurance will demand a WETT certification. The only unknown IMHO is if they will let you get away without due to it's rare use.

I'm thinking a portable kerosene heater would be a better solution but I think you can find what you need in stoves and chimney if you search.

 

[begreen]

A new True North TN19 is more than $1K in Canada? It's about $800 retail at our local hardware store. I would expect it to be a better value in Canada where it's made, but then there is the shipping cost from BC to ON.

 

[webby3650]

In that case your $1K limit may be impossible if you have to comply to normal Ontario insurance standards for a wood burning device. The only way would be to find both used stove and chimney on Kijiji that still has the proper labels and ensure that the installation you do yourself is compliant. A lot will depend upon whether your insurance will demand a WETT certification. The only unknown IMHO is if they will let you get away without due to it's rare use.

I'm thinking a portable kerosene heater would be a better solution but I think you can find what you need in stoves and chimney if you search.

There is no way I would use a kerosene heater in any sleeping quarters! I'm pretty sure this isn't a shanty back in the woods, its worth $85K!
I also don't think they will care if its used every day or once a decade. If its not installed properly, one good fire could set place up in flames! That's how the authority will look at it.

 

[mcdougy]

Just to be clear...We are not trying to avoid anything, safety is our main concern also. like i said we all have wives and kids that we want to go back home after a week of hunting and see. As far as the insulated pipe goes it is a proper "tagged" pipe im pretty sure/ almost positive. As far as a "WETT" inspection goes, we are prepared to do that also if they ask for it, even went as far as contacting inspectors and found a fellow that seems interested in helping out in our situation. Again my main question is concerning a dual purpose stove that will heat ok but almost more importantly provide us the ability to cook with. The camp is small and the outdoor temps are really not that cold in comparison to mid winter. they are generally lows of -2Celcius with highs of 7Celcius. The budget is $1000 and are willing to buy used if that is the only feasable option. Wasnt sure if the stove was better suited as cat, non-cat, pre epa or whatever helps the cooking end of things out. We use this camp for only 3 weeks of the colder months. As far as kerosene propane ... its remoteness and challange to get to with a boat/atv/boat/atv trip makes bringing in extra"fuel" seem unlogical since its in the middle of the WOODS. I really do appreciate all the feedback I am getting but don't want to turn this into a "darn insurance" complaint. We have chosen to take this unfortunate situation "head on" vs avoiding or fighting "the company" Again I feel that $1000 should be able to "solve" this situation, but feel free to tell me I'm wrong if it seems appropiate. As far as hearth, we do not have anything significant as of now except a large spark protection area, but will do whatever is necessary if necessary. Lets not reinvent the wheel or something. So...Thanks and keep it coming.. I have came across a reconditioned "fisher" airtight that is 20"x27" double glass door that takes a 17" log on a pedestal for $900 asking price on their website.

 

[mcdougy]

Also I did have a stove salesman that was wanting to redo his show room offer me a vermont casting dutchwest non-cat for $1000 it was brand new never fired. with some pre reading before talking with him I felt I could purchase something "better" for that kind of money new or used. He also claimed that we would have a tough time cooking on ANY new style stove due to the firebox being below the actual top lined with firebricks and such. FWIW i did not care for this fellas approach either. Let me know if I "missed the boat" by not buying that stove and if he is completely wrong in his statement of having a hard time achiving temp hot enough to cook a roast at 300degreesF?

 

[begreen]

I would avoid that stove or at least read up on the shortcomings of its design before deciding. Most modern steel and cast iron stoves see stove top temps in the 500-600F range. You could cook in a dutch oven, though you probably would need a trivet to stop it from scorching on the bottom.