Oil burner specs

[muncybob]

Had the oil co. send over a person to set up the oil burner on my Wood Gun. Here are the specs he left for me after he was done. Anything seem out of line here?
stack temp 224 (ambient temp was 67)
O2 9.9%
CO2 8.2%
CO 256 ppm
CO(0% O2) 487 ppm

Efficiency 88.5%
Ex. Air 83.33%

I'm not sure if the ppm is the desirable range and I have no idea what the Ex. Air% means? Pleased to see the efficiency over 80% even though I hope to rarely use the oil burner.

 

[humpin iron]

low stack temp, H2O turns from liquid to vapor at 212, you could have condensation issues/ C02 issues.

What kind of chimney, how tall, masonry or class A, inside building or outside, what is ID of chim vs breech of furnace

 

[muncybob]

The chimney is outside, 26' & lined with 6" SS...piping from boiler to chimney is also 6" SS.

 

[humpin iron]

Masonry? I guess yes. You should really run the oil burner about an hour, take a stack temp 12" - 18" down inside the chim from the top. I'll bet you will be well below 200 degrees.
If you start looking at masonry chimneys you will notice wet stains on the fossil fuel side of the chimney. More noticeable during cold weather. Your liner is really good to help with this. But you may want to fire the oil with a bigger nozzle to get a higher stack temp. In real cold areas ice can actually form in the chim.
I know this sounds backwards for saving energy, but the trade off is the chimney self destructing from moisture or not enough draft (lift) the evac CO2. Kinda like having a high performance engine and never going fast, thats bad for the motor.

 

[CrappieKeith]

My question....is that a condensing oil burner?
Anything higher than 83% is condensing and needs a drain.
If it is not condensing,not only will there be a mess due to no drain ,but that condensation is highly acidic and will rot out your furnace assuming the heat exchanger is not stainless steel.

 

[Hydronics]

Keep in mind he has a stainless Wood Gun boiler.

 

[Fred61]

I think that the fact that the induction fan runs while the oil burner is firing skews the numbers. I never saw any condensation issues with my wood gun. This may also give you a false efficiency result.

 

[R Mannino]

Those readings may be appropriate for a wood/oil burner, but I don't think so.

Search around this website for combustion analysis interpretation: http://www.bacharach-training.com/
If that was my appliance with those readings I would say that:

CO2 is low
O2 is high
CO is too high
stack temp is too low

I wonder if these were start up readings or steady state readings.

JMO Ron

 

[heaterman]

Had the oil co. send over a person to set up the oil burner on my Wood Gun. Here are the specs he left for me after he was done. Anything seem out of line here?
stack temp 224 (ambient temp was 67)
O2 9.9%
CO2 8.2%
CO 256 ppm
CO(0% O2) 487 ppm

Efficiency 88.5%
Ex. Air 83.33%

I'm not sure if the ppm is the desirable range and I have no idea what the Ex. Air% means? Pleased to see the efficiency over 80% even though I hope to rarely use the oil burner.

If I was your tech I would not have left the house with numbers like that. CO is way high, should be no more than 50ppm. A good oil burner properly set up should produce CO2 readings in the 10.5%+ range along with O2 readings that would be in the 4-5% area. Stack temp should be a minimum of 300* net. It's either messed up or the burner is designed to run with weird numbers.

What was the boiler water temp at the time of testing? It should have been a minimum of 120-130 to produce valid results. Two critical pieces of info are missing and those are over fire draft and flue draft.

For example, a Riello burner in almost any boiler or furnace I have set up will easily do 84-85% while reading CO of 10ppm or less and a CO2 reading of 12%+.

 

[muncybob]

OK. since I have next to no idea what the readings should have been....if this were you what exactly would you be saying to the oil co.? At what point is the burner in a steady state condition? I wasn't home when the work was done but left the owners manual which had some info for set up that my wife says he did refer to when doing the work. Is it possible that a Reillo F5 burner on a Wood Gun would be set up differently than on a conventional oil boiler?

I was hoping for better news due to the time he spent here working on the burner...of course the wife says he spent a good 20 minutes or so just checking the beast out!

 

[heaterman]

OK. since I have next to no idea what the readings should have been....if this were you what exactly would you be saying to the oil co.? At what point is the burner in a steady state condition? I wasn't home when the work was done but left the owners manual which had some info for set up that my wife says he did refer to when doing the work. Is it possible that a Reillo F5 burner on a Wood Gun would be set up differently than on a conventional oil boiler?

I was hoping for better news due to the time he spent here working on the burner...of course the wife says he spent a good 20 minutes or so just checking the beast out!

Your best place to start would be with the boiler manufacturer. They should have set up specs from the company that built the burner. Next place would be the burner manufacturer. They would have to have done testing on the boiler when used with their burner in order to be UL listed.

 

[muncybob]

Well, I think I'm making a little progress. Called Wood Gun tech support and they recall speaking with the oil tech. The oil guy only had the operating temp at about 140 when on the phone. Also, WG says the figures will be different on their product due to the draft induced fan. They are going to get back to me on what they thought the specs should be at as the tech person I spoke with was really the wood guru and he had to check with the oil guru.

Does the draft induced part of this make sense as to possibly skew the numbers?

 

[heaterman]

Well, I think I'm making a little progress. Called Wood Gun tech support and they recall speaking with the oil tech. The oil guy only had the operating temp at about 140 when on the phone. Also, WG says the figures will be different on their product due to the draft induced fan. They are going to get back to me on what they thought the specs should be at as the tech person I spoke with was really the wood guru and he had to check with the oil guru.

Does the draft induced part of this make sense as to possibly skew the numbers?

One of the joys of multi fueled appliances is getting the draft to work with both fuels. Typically you would need more draft present for wood than with oil. Many of the modern oil burners actually like to fire into a slightly positive pressure combustion chamber with a flue draft of only .02 to .04"w.c.. Many manufacturers of wood products on the other hand will ask for drafts of nearly double that. Go with what Wood Gun says. Multi fueled equipment is a whole 'nuther can of worms that I really don't want to open.

 

[pybyr]

What make is the oil burner "head" on your WoodGun? I assume that they are not making one from scratch, but rather are using a Beckett, Carlin, or maybe Riello.

The following document has more useful info in one read than anything else I've ever run across regarding oil heat (although it has been a while since I've read it)

(broken link removed to http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect/techsuppt/product-manuals/RWB_Oilheat_Guide.pdf)

read it and it should at least help begin to shed some light

also pull up and read some of the Tech publications in the lower part of the list at:

(broken link removed to http://www.delavaninc.com/doc_and_lit.htm)

if you really read and absorb those, you'll quickly get an understanding of oil burners that may exceed the level of more than a few people who go around servicing them...

 

[Fred61]

This is what I posted last month.

I had a carbon steel 140 Wood Gun several years ago. Ran it for 10 years and then sent it to the junkyard. I was glad to see it go after many frustrating experiences with the beast over the years. The final problem that sent it away was the leaky loading chamber. After getting a welder in three or four times to patch several leaks I decided to rid myself of the unit after seeing weeping in several places on the walls of the chamber.

It ate a set of ceramic center brick nozzles a year which at that time were costing $200.00 a set. I was continually repairing door gaskets throughout the heating season. That baby has several feet of door seals with the number and size of doors it has.

I don't know if they have changed the controls in recent years. It was run with a pair of aquastats. When it ran out of wood the fan would continue to run, sucking in cold outside air, quickly cooling the unit, then when it got down to where the oil aquastat kicked in the oil would bring the boiler temp back up but the next time the boiler called for heat the wood aquastat would kick in and again draw cold outside air through the unit quickly cooling it until the oil burner kicked in. I overcame this problem by building a controller that locked the system in oil mode until I released it manually. When it was in oil mode it was very inefficient. If I were to do it over (which I wouldn't) I would get the unit without the oil and find some other means of back-up.
As for using the unit without a chimney, I wonder if that could present some danger. I had about 15 feet of chimney and there was still sparks coming out of it. The asphalt shingles were burned four feet in all directions.

 

[muncybob]

Wow, that's a lot of info Trevor...I'll probably need to read through it several times...very interesting! The oil burner is a Riello F5.
Fred, appreciate the problems you had although it appears(and I hope!) that AHS has corrected the problems you noted. I can say that their oil lock out does work as intended!
But, the reason for this thread is to determine if the readings the tech left me are reasonable for the WG. I guess I won't know until the AHS oil guy gets back to me. From running the oil unit a bit I am amazed at how quiet it is as compared to my ancient & departed Axeman-Anderson unit.

 

[heaterman]

Wow, that's a lot of info Trevor...I'll probably need to read through it several times...very interesting! The oil burner is a Riello F5.
Fred, appreciate the problems you had although it appears(and I hope!) that AHS has corrected the problems you noted. I can say that their oil lock out does work as intended!
But, the reason for this thread is to determine if the readings the tech left me are reasonable for the WG. I guess I won't know until the AHS oil guy gets back to me. From running the oil unit a bit I am amazed at how quiet it is as compared to my ancient & departed Axeman-Anderson unit.

For comparison here's some annual tune up numbers from a 6 year old Thermopride with a Riello burner on it.

Flue draft -.03" water column
CO2 13.2%
O2 4.2%
CO 6PPM
Combustion efficiency 87.3%
Gross flue temp 368*


PS: I love Riello's.

 

[muncybob]

Well, I may have discovered the reason for the readings being "out of the ballpark"?? Spoke with the oil tech today and he stated that the temp was only 100. He has been in touch with AHS tech support and he is scheduled back today at my house to resolve(I hope!). I did not start the boiler before his first visit other than to verify the burner fires...but this time I turned her on last night and wil be at operating temp when he arrives. He did inicate the nozzle may need to be a higher gpm to increase the stack temp, but this is the nozzle AHS suggested(it came with it) so we will see. I must say that AHS tech support has been very responsive to my needs up to this point....they may not be instantly available by phone but they are prompt in returning calls.

 

[muncybob]

After yesterday's visit by the oil tech I think it has been determined that the induced draft is producing too much draft for the oil burner to be set up within the norm. He has the burner settings(forget what he called it...but something to do with air intake) as low as he feels comfortable with and got the O2 to 8.8% and CO2 to 9.0% with the CO ppm at 59. It would appear that the WG would need a burner that can cope with the draft to get this set up any better. Thankfully I only plan to use the oil burner once in a blue moon so I guess we are OK. It's still showing 88% efficiency. AHS told the tech that the stack temp will not get over 270 or so(now at 263) hence the need for SS flue liner and connection piping.

Now I have another issue though.....the T&P;release some water. Oil tech says possible 2 reasons. At first he thought the expansion tank may be too small (Extrol 30) but his book shows it should be good based on the BTU of the system(I thought the expansion tank is based on volume?). Then he thought perhaps the expansion tank should be relocated closer to the boiler and wondered why it as piped in after a check valve. I have about 120' of baseboard in a 2 story house and the boiler holds 60 gallons of water. Would the current tank be sufficient if reloacted closer to the boiler and no check valve or do I need to get a larger tank?

 

[heaterman]

The expn tank should always be sized to the system volume and the circ should always pump away from the tank. Basic, basic hydronics, plain and simple.

 

[Fred61]

After yesterday's visit by the oil tech I think it has been determined that the induced draft is producing too much draft for the oil burner to be set up within the norm. He has the burner settings(forget what he called it...but something to do with air intake) as low as he feels comfortable with and got the O2 to 8.8% and CO2 to 9.0% with the CO ppm at 59. It would appear that the WG would need a burner that can cope with the draft to get this set up any better. Thankfully I only plan to use the oil burner once in a blue moon so I guess we are OK. It's still showing 88% efficiency. AHS told the tech that the stack temp will not get over 270 or so(now at 263) hence the need for SS flue liner and connection piping.

Now I have another issue though.....the T&P;release some water. Oil tech says possible 2 reasons. At first he thought the expansion tank may be too small (Extrol 30) but his book shows it should be good based on the BTU of the system(I thought the expansion tank is based on volume?). Then he thought perhaps the expansion tank should be relocated closer to the boiler and wondered why it as piped in after a check valve. I have about 120' of baseboard in a 2 story house and the boiler holds 60 gallons of water. Would the current tank be sufficient if reloacted closer to the boiler and no check valve or do I need to get a larger tank?

As I have mentioned in the past, Just because the stack temp is low, it does not mean it will be condensing. The air flow is so rapid that the exhaust stays clear. Mine had a "Blue Angel" burner and the tech had the intake closed up as far as it could go. I had about eight feet of standard steel smoke pipe which connected to an eight inch metalbestos chimney. When I took it apart after 10 years of use, the pipe was as solid as new with absolutely no corrosion. However, I must add that it was such an oil hog that I used the oil side sparingly.