Oil furnace troubleshooting

[Hogwildz]

Anyone have experience with changing the nozzle and cleaning/setting the electrodes in a Oil Furnace with a RWB Beckett Burner?
I usually start her once a month to make sure it works, and since it was cold as heck last night, I tried it and it the pump runs for a minute maybe then shuts off. Its not firing. I believe its getting oil cause I can smell it.
The lockout light comes on, and I did try and reset 3x, then knew not to try any further. Tried again today, now the lockout light won't even stay off, nor the pump start & run?
Any suggestions? All I did was wipe the photo eye off with a napkin. Seems I made it worse.

 

[jdemaris]

Anyone have experience with changing the nozzle and cleaning/setting the electrodes in a Oil Furnace with a RWB Beckett Burner?

This sounds a bit simplistic, but all it needs is steady spark and fuel and it's going to work. So, you must be missing one of those things.

With many furnaces, there's a view porthole you can open and stick a little mirror in. Very easy to see what is and what is not happening that way.

As to checking fuel - open the bleeder just after you hit the reset. If a good stream comes out the bleeder, then pull the nozzle off and check and/or replace. Just make sure if you replace you use the same size and angle.

With spark, I usually just energize the coil with it swung out and swipe a screwdriver across the terminals for a second to check for spark output. Obviously, if the coil has power on the primary side, and no spark at the secondary, the coil/transformer is bad. If no power at the primary, and you've checked the cad-cell (or stack sensor in old models), then seems you've got a control board problem.

 

[ansehnlich1]

Don't know what model you have, but shut the power off, loosen the screw(s) on the transformer, and if it's hinged like I think, it should fold right back. You'll see the electrodes there, and in the old burners you could remove 'em right through there, the whole assembly comes out, oil pipe, nozzle, electrodes and an air deflector up front. I ain't worked on 'em for years but that's how the old ones worked.

Before ya remove all that though, try firin' some air with an air hose up through there, that might dislodge any carbon that's gunked up and keepin' it from sparkin' proper and ignitin' up front there.

I'd also check for air in the line, there's likely a brass nut/fitting on the motor housing, when you're firing it, have 'er loosened up until oil starts comin' out then screw 'er in fast.

 

[Dix]

1-800-BURNERS %-P

Check you're "boost nozzle" %-P

*the above ph # is made up by moi*

Don't have much else to say right now, Hogs, but I'll be learning from this thread

 

[Hogwildz]

No air in line, bleeder had good flow when cracked open, still would not fire.
Holding the reset in for 30 seconds worked, thanks. I remember that from my old house now, but forgot about it until you mentioned it.
The cad cell seems ok.
The furnace was flooded in the basement a week after I bought the place. I had a tech come out and get it running. He put a new circuit board in. But only cleaned the nozzle & the electrodes off, instead of replacing.
I am still leaning towards those as being the culprit. The coils are high voltage correct? Do I just bridge a screwdriver across the coils? These are the coils on the bottom of the flip up lid correct?
This entire are under there has some carbon buildup, not thick, but a thin film all over.
Maybe I'll take some pics tomorrow. The nozzle id like 5 bucks, so I might as well replace it and rule that out.
I see the rods under when I lift the flip top. But shouldn't I look at the ends near the nozzle?
I don't see this just pulling out, the oil line would at least have to be disconnected or at least where it comes into the side of the burner, where the plastic stop nut is.
Oh, this is a single line set up. I might as well replace the filter also.

 

[jdemaris]

The furnace was flooded in the basement a week after I bought the place. I had a tech come out and get it running. He put a new circuit board in. But only cleaned the nozzle & the electrodes off, instead of replacing.
I am still leaning towards those as being the culprit.

I doubt your problem is from an electrode adjustment. It is possible, but it's also easy to check. Every burner model has it's own adjustment specs, but they are all similiar. Replacement is just about never necessary. You can probably get the precise specs from Becket's website. If not, I can dig them up, I have them here in hardcopy. But, even if the electrodes are 3/8" apart, they should still fire with a good coil. Adjustment is with the distance between the electrodes, and also the distance the tips are - either ahead or behind the nozzle tip, and above. Much depends on the size and angle nozzle used. Most are adjusted with a 5/32" gap between the electrodes, their tips 7/16" above the centerline of the nozzle tip, and the electrode tips 1/16" to 5/32" ahead of the end of the nozzle (further forward).

What I said about a quick check of a coil/transformer with a screwdriver is this. When powered, a screwdriver drawn sidways across both terminals slowly - will at start no gap (completely shorted) to a gap equal the distance the two terminals are from each other. A good coil will usually keep throwing a spark even when the screwdriver is pull away - from terminal to terminal.
It is basically just a big ignition coil and works just as one does on an old car or truck. It only creates the energy needed to bridge a gap, and will create higher voltage as more gap must be jumped until it reaches its limit. If it gets run at the height of its limit too long, it can burn out. So, a furnace with too wide a gap in the electrodes calls for more voltage, and after awhile a coil can burn out. The new ones though are pretty rugged.

What does your furnace have for a refractory chamber? Many have cheap chambers that fall apart in damp basements. Since you said there had been water, maybe the chamber is falling apart? When they DO fall apart, you can get erratic gun operation since it won't hold a steady air-collar adjustment. There are one or two external air intake adjustments on your burner that determine how good and clean the flame is when burning. If too lean, it can keep crapping out at first start and this is sometimes caused by a bad chamber - especially when it hard starting and keeps tripping - but smoothes out once going and hot.
Many cheap furnaces have a cheaply made chamber that falls part pretty easy. Those can be replaced with an OEM pre-formed chamber that costs around $75. Or, you can use a generic "wet pack" that is much cheaper. It's packed in a box wet so it can take on any shape and hardens the first time fire hits it. Better - and just about all old furnaces are built better and use firebrick, stainless steel, or a gun that does not directly hit a refractory chamber.

 

[ansehnlich1]

Yep, if you want to take out the nozzle assembly you gotta disconnect the oil line.

Only thing I would guess is wrong is carbon buildup at the nozzle end which may be causing a poor spray pattern resulting in no ignition.

Also, if an electrode is loose, or was bumped, it could be out of line up front as already talked about here by jdemaris.

Your nozzle could be clogged, that's possible, but rare. You should have an inline filter right out of the tank somewhere.

My gut tells me things are gunked up in the burner tube, up front where the nozzle is.

 

[Hogwildz]

Yep, if you want to take out the nozzle assembly you gotta disconnect the oil line.

Only thing I would guess is wrong is carbon buildup at the nozzle end which may be causing a poor spray pattern resulting in no ignition.

Also, if an electrode is loose, or was bumped, it could be out of line up front as already talked about here by jdemaris.

Your nozzle could be clogged, that's possible, but rare. You should have an inline filter right out of the tank somewhere.

My gut tells me things are gunked up in the burner tube, up front where the nozzle is.

There is an inline filter just before the line runs through the furnace housing, I'll be replacing that. Plus pulling the nozzle assy out.
The I'll be able to tell if the nozzle is gunked up, or the electrodes are off or carbon build up.
Once in my years of heating with oil at the old place, the electrodes got some build up which caused it no to fire up.
I doubt they are damaged, but could be messy. I have the measurements for the electrode placement somehwere here.
I still think its the nozzle being the last time it was maintenenced, the guy didn't replace, but tried to clean it cause he didn't have a replacement on his truck.
Its a Delvan .65 / 80B Solid. For the 5 or 6 bucks it costs, I am replacing with new. I'll also try and get a look at the burner tube & the inside of the heat chamber.
I only remember there is 3 small caps to take off about 2" each, not sure of any other way to see inside the chamber.
I'd like to put a shut off valve in line prior to or after the filter housing. Can I get away with a compression fitting type valve, or does it have to be flanged thread in type?
I am not sure where my flaring kit is, as I still have not unpacked everything until I get a garage floor poured.
BTW, thanks for the help guys, this is one thing I never worked on, but I feel it should not be that hard for me.
I learn hands on pretty easily & quickly. But I always research the shat out of stuff I have not done before.

 

[ansehnlich1]

yeah you're right to replace that nozzle if you're gonna tear the thing out. How low has your tank gotten? I got some old tanks around here that I KNOW have a couple inches of crud in the bottom of 'em.

I haven't worked on oil burners for some time, I assume they ain't changed much over the years, maybe the electronics, but the fundamentals are the same. You ought to be able to get the thing cleaned up and runnin.

I always used flaring tools.

You mentioned that cat eye, make sure it's workin right too, if it's bad she'll do what you're sayin, fire up for a spell then shut right down.

 

[Hogwildz]

yeah you're right to replace that nozzle if you're gonna tear the thing out. How low has your tank gotten? I got some old tanks around here that I KNOW have a couple inches of crud in the bottom of 'em.

I haven't worked on oil burners for some time, I assume they ain't changed much over the years, maybe the electronics, but the fundamentals are the same. You ought to be able to get the thing cleaned up and runnin.

I always used flaring tools.

You mentioned that cat eye, make sure it's workin right too, if it's bad she'll do what you're sayin, fire up for a spell then shut right down.

The tank was filled in 06, used more that year we moved in here more than anything. Still had about 1/4 tank or so left before getting it topped off this year.
I think I am going to replace the cat eye also. Are they expensive?

 

[velvetfoot]

A friend of mine had a similar problem and it was the refractory.

 

[ansehnlich1]

hog, the czar might be right, check that transformer and make sure you're gettin' the spark for ignition.

 

[Shari]

Hogz,

Not that this will help in your specific instance, but here's the "Trials of Our Oil Furnace" story:

1 yr. old oil furnace
hubby recently home from 3 months in hospital, needing constant care
furnace went out
local furnace men wouldn't touch it unless we replaced the 50 yr. old oil tank. I said no way, we just got $500 of oil and I'm not losing that!
called a different furnace repair company
repair man came, replaced clogged nozzle and filter
furnace worked for 3 days
furnace went out
repair man came, replaced clogged nozzle and added second in-line filter just off furnace (1st filter is off tank)
furnace worked for 3 days
furnace went out
repair man came, replaced clogged nozzle and replaced copper line from tank to furnace
furnace worked for 3 days
furnace went out
repair man came, replaced clogged nozzle and he attached some kind of pump to the top of our oil tank creating a negative pressure and then removed the bottom value on the tank and added a 3 inch (copper?) tube so we wouldn't be sucking oil from bottom of tank
3 seasons later, furnace still running like a champ

Moral of the story: Don't be the last 'fill' from the oil truck (we had an oil delivery which contained a lot of "crud" and it settled in the bottom of our tank which messed up our furnace)

Shari
PS The tube idea was my idea.

 

[ansehnlich1]

Shari,

Nice post, typical of troubleshooting a furnace, unfortunately.

I got that setup on one of my old tanks too, the copper feed line comes out of the TOP of the tank, it's designed to NOT pull fuel from within 4 inches of the bottom of the tank, keeping it from sucking that bottom crud into the oil burner.

 

[Hogwildz]

Update:
Pulled the inspection caps. 2 holes outside the chamber had some rusty crap in there, vacuumed it out.
The center chamber inspection hole was fine, could not see the bottom of the chamber, but the wall directly back still had the kawool looking blanket on it and unscaved.
UNdid the oil tube from pump to the nozzle and pulled the nozzle assy out. Nozzle was a lil gunked up. Electrodes same.
Cad cell had a slight haze over the lens, took the end of that off. Pulled the burner assy away from the combustion chamber and inspected. Same kawool looking blanket on bottom. Basically lines the entire inside walls of the chamber. Burner assy gasket got a lil buggered up, but still intact.
Supply house closes at 12 noon, I didn't get there till about 1:30. I picked up 2 nozzles yesterday while I was on the road.
Stopped at hardware store & picked up a cad cell assy. They did not have just the tip $26.00 a lil pricey, as the hardware stores around here all are, but I wanted it and bought it.
Also picked up a brass needle valve to install as an oil line shut off valve. Damn previous homeowner did not install one.

Here is what I replaced: Nozzle with new, same specs.
Cleaned and adjusted the electrodes. Also cleaned out the nozzle tube with brake cleaner. Cleaned the ceramic off and the buss bars.
Replaced the cad cell with new, just the end eye(plugs into wiring harness).
Retention head looked fine.
Changed the filter. This was a groan, cause there was not way to shut off the oil from tank. Single line gravity fed. Used a 5 gallon bucket to catch most the mess. And it was A MESS.
Got the filter in, the top seal washer under the bolt leaked. Starting to get pissed now. Decided I could not forgo a shut off valve any longer. Time to get reallllll messy.
Got tubing cutter, cut the tubing, put finger over the end of the line, worked a compression nut & sleeve over the line, put the valve body on(making sure ahead of time it was in the closed position)
tightened the compression nut to the valve body till the oil stopped running out, turned another 1/4 turn or so. Hooked the other end of the valve with the compression nut & sleeve for the other side over the other end of the tube I just cut, tightened till it stopped coming out, 1/4 turn more. Pulled the filter housing back off, added a second bolt sealing washer to the one I just previously installed, tightened till it stopped leaking, 1/4 turn more.
Changed the vent screw sealing ring. Opened the valve, checked for leaks, done for that part.

Next I hooked a tube to the end of the tubing that runs from the pump to nozzle tube and ran to the bucket.
Checked everything a few times, turned the thermostat up 10 degrees past the actual temp. Then switched on, hit reset button, and as it pumped the fuel I bled the line at the bleeder valve. Switched off.
Reconnected the tube to the nozzle tube, closed the transformer top. Checked everything a few more times. Switched on, pump starts, about 30 seconds later it fires up, wallah. Shut it off, an back on again, fired back up,
hot air blowing out the registers.
Fixed for about $45.00

 

[BrotherBart]

Young wimp. What ya need backup heat for? :lol:

Went down to check my oil burner. Wasn't one down there.

 

[Hogwildz]

Young wimp. What ya need backup heat for? :lol:

Went down to check my oil burner. Wasn't one down there.

Fer when I get old like you pappy, and don't feel like lugging wood all over

Not to mention, I am running low on wood for this season.

 

[North of 60]

Hogz I dont know about that compression fitting on your oil shut off. Flare only on fuel oil. Compression only on gas pilot lines. I know it got you through it but could become a stickler with insurance if that gravity feed empties that fuel tank into your basement. Environmental costs alone would kill ya. Do you have an OSV (Oil Safety Valve) ( Opens on vacuum only) upstream of your compression fitting? I know its your new home and your hard earned dollars are into it. Compression fittings with ferrules on soft copper become fatigued with burner vibration causing the copper to anneal and crack at the compression point at the edge of the ferrule. Lots of oil up here and Ive seen it happen. In the Canadian Oil code book its a No No. Should be the same across the border. Glad you got it working though.
N of 60

 

[ansehnlich1]

Ah, I knew I'd read the story right here if I kept checkin in from time to time. So you think it was the nozzle or the cad or carbon gunked up in there?

Great to hear that bad boy is runnin.

A little bit of mechanical know how and a guy can run them oil burners pretty easy.

I don't know how big a Pennsylvania boy you are so I ain't gonna call ya a "young wimp" %-P

 

[BrotherBart]

I don't know how big a Pennsylvania boy you are so I ain't gonna call ya a "young wimp" %-P

He's a big one. :gulp:

 

[Hogwildz]

Hogz I dont know about that compression fitting on your oil shut off. Flare only on fuel oil. Compression only on gas pilot lines. I know it got you through it but could become a stickler with insurance if that gravity feed empties that fuel tank into your basement. Environmental costs alone would kill ya. Do you have an OSV (Oil Safety Valve) ( Opens on vacuum only) upstream of your compression fitting? I know its your new home and your hard earned dollars are into it. Compression fittings with ferrules on soft copper become fatigued with burner vibration causing the copper to anneal and crack at the compression point at the edge of the ferrule. Lots of oil up here and Ive seen it happen. In the Canadian Oil code book its a No No. Should be the same across the border. Glad you got it working though.
N of 60

I understand your concerns North. Its all I had. I searched online and still have not found a home fuel oil valve for this.
I highly doubt there is any safety valve on the system. The damned guy that installed this did not even have a shut off valve.
I had to get it in, as changing the filter and servicing the line anywhrere up to the pimp meant a constant battle against oil flow.
I had 2 options at the time. The compression fitting type valve, or a Watts slip on similar to shark bites, But its plastic, and the more I kept thinking about a petroleum product against the plastic, I just couldn't let myself do it.
If I ever get the tank run dry, I'll change to a flare type fitting. It don't get run too much, so it could be a while. If I ever did have a leak, I am out in the woods, it wuld be leaned out of the basement, and the bestI could do. No EPA down & out here.

 

[Hogwildz]

I don't know how big a Pennsylvania boy you are so I ain't gonna call ya a "young wimp" %-P

He's a big one. :gulp:

Well a lil smaller these days.
The doc has me on cholesterol medication, had me quit smoking (that lasted 3 months), and trying to eat a lil healthier. So I dropped about 10 lbs.
But now that the medication dropped my cholesterol levels by 1/2, I feel I can eat whatever the f I want LOL. I know I know, but hey the levels are down.
I still am eating a lil less and a tad more healthy. The smoking is usually 1/2 pack per day. Far cry from 3