Old house plumbing, well water, and lead...

[Badfish740]

As some of you may have seen my current house is up for sale-we are under contract on a new one. We got the well test results back and it failed for low pH (acidity), high iron, and high lead. I have young children, so lead in the water is something I can't mess around with. I've been doing some reading and found that its highly unlikely that the lead is coming from the ground. There are only a few parts of the country where that tends to be an issue and New Jersey is not one of them.

The more likely explanation is that the acidity of the water is causing lead to leach from brass components in the plumbing (especially older ones with higher lead content) and lead solder. The original part of the house was built in 1896. Otherwise the house is in great shape and perfect for us, so I just want to find the right fix and ask the seller to take care of it. I'd love to hear from anyone who has dealt with this and what kind of system they used. It looks like there are a few ways to skin this cat from soda ash injection systems to limestone filters, but each have their pros and cons.

 

[Ashful]

I've owned houses of that age (the one in my mind was 1865'ish) that actually had lead pipe, so it may not just be lead solder or a brass fitting. In fact, I've always been told (perhaps erroneously) that you really can't leach enough lead from a solder meniscus to cause much concern, but perhaps that was by some old measure. Lead solder was the standard until 1986-1988, so it's not unique to old houses.

In any case, are you sure there's not an old lead pipe between the curb stop valve (or well shoe) and the house? That's where ours was. The solution in our case was to just run a new line from the curb to the house.

 

[Badfish740]

I've owned houses of that age (the one in my mind was 1865'ish) that actually had lead pipe, so it may not just be lead solder or a brass fitting. In fact, I've always been told (perhaps erroneously) that you really can't leach enough lead from a solder meniscus to cause much concern, but perhaps that was by some old measure. Lead solder was the standard until 1986-1988, so it's not unique to old houses.

In any case, are you sure there's not an old lead pipe between the curb stop valve (or well shoe) and the house? That's where ours was. The solution in our case was to just run a new line from the curb to the house.

Could be-we'll have to do some more investigation. The well head outside is a fairly modern one (new pump was installed in 2008) and there is a plastic pipe coming out of the top and then going below grade carrying the water into the house, but I suppose there could be an old lead line in the mix somewhere. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Highbeam]

I would start by isolating the source of lead. Take more samples back towards the well until you get a negative meaning find the point upstream of the lead and then treat your water pH or remove the downstream source of lead. Even regular galvanized iron pipe can be a source of lead. Seems the zinc coating is not just zinc. I worry that any galvanized pipe has had it's coating compromised by the many decades of acid water

Fixing pH is easy and pretty common, you've found the two most common solutions. I've only ever injected sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) on city systems but the limestone might be easier. High iron, though not a safety concern, is an aesthetic issue and I prefer a nice iron filter. Manganese oxide works well for iron but not a water softener as your problem is not hardness.

If the lead is above the MCL (Maximum Contaminant Level) then it is a bad source. I would expect this to stop a sale until it is fixed.

 

[Badfish740]

I would start by isolating the source of lead. Take more samples back towards the well until you get a negative meaning find the point upstream of the lead and then treat your water pH or remove the downstream source of lead. Even regular galvanized iron pipe can be a source of lead. Seems the zinc coating is not just zinc. I worry that any galvanized pipe has had it's coating compromised by the many decades of acid water

Fixing pH is easy and pretty common, you've found the two most common solutions. I've only ever injected sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) on city systems but the limestone might be easier. High iron, though not a safety concern, is an aesthetic issue and I prefer a nice iron filter. Manganese oxide works well for iron but not a water softener as your problem is not hardness.

If the lead is above the MCL (Maximum Contaminant Level) then it is a bad source. I would expect this to stop a sale until it is fixed.

The level detected is 22 ug/l. 15 ug/l is considered the level at which remediation must occur, and 5 ug/l is the standard.

 

[Highbeam]

Here's how you fix acid water.

http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/neutralizer-filter.html

That should fix your lead problem. The lead isn't from the actual water but from your pipes as a result of the acidity.

You can get the iron out with one of these:

http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/iron-manganese-filters.html

I use regular pro-ox in my house.

Now lead is hard. I've only found cartridge filters for lead but in this case, you would have to decide where to put it. If the only thing you did was a lead filter you would have to replace all downstream plumbing with lead free materials since the nasty water will draw more lead out of lead containing materials.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I'd test water coming out of the well and where it enters the house. Moving water doesn't have time to pick up the lead. Its sitting in contact with it somewhere. Isolate the spot and replace the section.

I like plumbing with pex. I doubt I'll do much sweating copper anymore.

 

[Ashful]

I'd test water coming out of the well and where it enters the house. Moving water doesn't have time to pick up the lead. Its sitting in contact with it somewhere. Isolate the spot and replace the section.

I like plumbing with pex. I doubt I'll do much sweating copper anymore.

I just re-did my whole house in copper with lead-free fittings and solder. 100 years on, it's the only system with which we haven't found serious health or safety concerns. PEX may just be 20 years from identification as the next butyl, or source of a host of different cancers. If you're in my shoes, your kids will be living on this water, their entire childhood.

Copper costs money, and requires a little more planning, but I don't find the actual labor to be any more difficult than PEX. I've been sweating pipe since I was maybe 5 years old, my family having owned a plumbing business where I used to help as a kid. I have tought many friends to sweat fittings in less than a half hour, it's really not as big a deal as some people assume!

 

[sportbikerider78]

I can't advise on the water treatments, but I will just say this..make sure it is 100% resolved and paid for by the seller before you settle the contract on the new home. Many very sketchy things happen in home sales.

Make sure the well is also tested for flow over a period of time.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I agree that copper isn't hard to sweat. Pex has been around since the 60s. I imagine problems I'll start being noticed soon if they are going to pop up.

 

[peakbagger]

There have already been a couple of big lawsuits on plastic pipe systems of various varieties. Uponor/Wirsbro had run of bad Chinese brass fittings and CPVC pipes were a big one. There also was some early failures until companies learned that PEX needed an additional oxygen barrier. There was also some lesser issues on using ABS and PVC for air lines due to shattering hazard. In most cases it was some company trying to roll out a cheaper/faster system that unfortunately got installed before the long term tests were in.

For commercial and industrial copper lines, most contractors have gone to the press connect fittings that combine a captive O-ring and a rolled connection. It requires less skill and more importantly no flames, fumes or high temps . The initial investment for the rolling tool makes it expensive for homeowners but the contractors love it.

I do admit that the heating side of my house was done with lead while the domestic water is no lead. I don't know if things have improved but early on the lead free solders required a bit more care and heat. I had more than few "dry" joints where the capillary effect didn't work so well. I got a mapp torch and my joints got better.

I do object to the home run approach that many builders are using where they run PEX like electric wire al through the walls. I have two pex joints hidden away in a ceiling that I wish I didn't. I like keeping it in chases in case I need to get it in the future. Of course running pex perpendicular to joists is sure a lot easier than running copper pipe.

 

[Ashful]

Yeah, being one who knows how to sweat pipe, but nowhere near as practiced as a pro, I really hated the early lead-free solders. It was very tough to get them to flow uphill into a vertical fitting, with all the old tricks. I also switched to MAPP, and the newer lead free solders (when paired with their proper flux) seem to work pretty well for this amateur. I think my last project had more than 200 joints, and only one leaker, an uphill vertical joint on a 1" tee in a confined area where I couldn't really get at it as straight as I'd like.

Never used the rolling tool, but the mention of an o-ring makes me nervous. I want my seal to be metal on metal, even if dissimilar metals. I'm skeptical of o-rings surviving the 100+ years I expect plumbing to stay in the walls, but I guess our grandkids can tell us how that went.

I am disappointed that our building codes, which are absurdly over-reaching and oppressive on so many other fronts, allow what I would consider to be temporary plumbing installed in walls and ceilings.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I use mostly pex for the last 5 years or so. Im still not sure if it imparts any nasty toxins into the potable water supply but were so bombarded with plastic on our food and water it probably dont matter that much. I do wonder when you run very hot water through it though, does it react.

 

[Ashful]

I use mostly pex for the last 5 years or so. Im still not sure if it imparts any nasty toxins into the potable water supply but were so bombarded with plastic on our food and water it probably dont matter that much. I do wonder when you run very hot water through it though, does it react.

My primary objection to it is that you run that very hot water into it, and then shut off a faucet to let that hot water just sit in the tube leaching out what it can for hours at a time, before turning it back on to fill a glass or a coffee pot. Maybe it's fine, but who really knows? We know the human lifetime-term issues with copper, or more accurately, the lack thereof. You can be a guinea pig, if you choose!

 

[moey]

We had two tests done one where the water runs for a long period before collecting and one where it has sat in the pipes overnight? That may help in the lead discussion.

Id be hesitant to buy a house that is coming up high in lead unless you can get a test that comes out ok either from letting the water run for a while or getting water very close to the source maybe the valve on the holding tank or something like that. If its in the ground your f**d.

We have very acidic water under 5 if I recall correctly. I installed a neutralizer tank a few years ago it was relatively inexpensive $3-400 dollars for a diy job.

Although both our tests before the neutralizer still came back ok for lead. Our house was built in 1986 though so Im sure the fixtures have less lead content in them.

 

[Ashful]

We had two tests done one where the water runs for a long period before collecting and one where it has sat in the pipes overnight? That may help in the lead discussion.

Id be hesitant to buy a house that is coming up high in lead unless you can get a test that comes out ok either from letting the water run for a while or getting water very close to the source maybe the valve on the holding tank or something like that. If its in the ground your f**d.

We have very acidic water under 5 if I recall correctly. I installed a neutralizer tank a few years ago it was relatively inexpensive $3-400 dollars for a diy job.

Although both our tests before the neutralizer still came back ok for lead. Our house was built in 1986 though so Im sure the fixtures have less lead content in them.

1986 is the year the Fed passed the latest no-lead laws for potable water solder, although I believe they didn't actually go into effect until 1988. There were many DIY'ers still using old solder from their toolboxes, well past that.

Doing two collections, one first thing in the morning before water has been run, and another after flushing the system, used to be standard practice. I assume it still is. But sometimes the seller tries to mess with the results, if they suspect there's a problem, by flushing out the system before you arrive to collect samples. Another thing they like to do is mess with extended-exposure radon tests, which is a very big problem in our area.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

My primary objection to it is that you run that very hot water into it, and then shut off a faucet to let that hot water just sit in the tube leaching out what it can for hours at a time, before turning it back on to fill a glass or a coffee pot. Maybe it's fine, but who really knows? We know the human lifetime-term issues with copper, or more accurately, the lack thereof. You can be a guinea pig, if you choose!

We dont use WH hot water for cooking .Cold water run through a brita filter ,both of which have a lot of plastic in but so does everything. Keurig has a lot of very hot water coming in contact with single use plastic

 

[sportbikerider78]

My primary objection to it is that you run that very hot water into it, and then shut off a faucet to let that hot water just sit in the tube leaching out what it can for hours at a time, before turning it back on to fill a glass or a coffee pot. Maybe it's fine, but who really knows? We know the human lifetime-term issues with copper, or more accurately, the lack thereof. You can be a guinea pig, if you choose!

If you don't already feel like a guinea pig, you're just not looking hard enough. Do we know all the details on how our water is processed? Exactly how many chemicals are added and to what concentration? How much do those concentrations vary township by township. What is in the water before it is filtered? What metals/plastic exposure does the water go through before and after it is filtered?

You can drive yourself nuts. That's just water. There is the air we breathe, the food we eat, the products we put on ourselves (so we don't stink and look funny), the clothes we wear, the environment we work in, the exhaust we breathe from cars...it never ends.

Go to the gym. Get your heart rate up. Lift weights. Get your bone density right. Eat healthy. Live in moderation. Live life worry free. None of us get out of this thing alive.

 

[Ashful]

If you don't already feel like a guinea pig, you're just not looking hard enough. Do we know all the details on how our water is processed? Exactly how many chemicals are added and to what concentration? How much do those concentrations vary township by township. What is in the water before it is filtered? What metals/plastic exposure does the water go through before and after it is filtered?

You can drive yourself nuts. That's just water. There is the air we breathe, the food we eat, the products we put on ourselves (so we don't stink and look funny), the clothes we wear, the environment we work in, the exhaust we breathe from cars...it never ends.

Go to the gym. Get your heart rate up. Lift weights. Get your bone density right. Eat healthy. Live in moderation. Live life worry free. None of us get out of this thing alive.

Lol... great post! But to be clear, my water comes out of a 150 foot deep hole in my front garden, and I live in a very rural community, so our concern with air quality is lower than most. The only things I put on myself to look and smell right are soap and sunscreen.

You are right, though... you can only avoid so much poison. And then there's those we choose to consume, namely caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine. I do enjoy a good drink, and even an occasional cigar.

Gym? Is that where people who aren't heating 8000 sq.ft. houses with firewood go?

 

[BrotherBart]

Gym? Is that where people who aren't heating 8000 sq.ft. houses with firewood go?

Can't help but laugh. Started with a new doctor by having a physical. During it she was ticking things off of her list and asked me if I exercised. I said that I loaded, unloaded, split and stacked 15,000 pounds of wood over the year. And then moved the stuff three times.

She looked at me with a puzzled look. So I said "Golf. Put down that I play golf." She said "Oh. OK." and started writing.

 

[sportbikerider78]

It is good to be active!

 

[greg13]

After years and years of research and billions of taxpayers dollars, modern science has found that once we are born someday we are going to die!!

 

[BrotherBart]

After years and years of research and billions of taxpayers dollars, modern science has found that once we are born someday we are going to die!!

We live and learn. And then we die and forget it all.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I carry 240 lbs with me everywhere i go,does that count?

 

[vikaspaul]

As some of you may have seen my current house is up for sale-we are under contract on a new one. We got the well test results back and it failed for low pH (acidity), high iron, and high lead. I have young children, so lead in the water is something I can't mess around with. I've been doing some reading and found that its highly unlikely that the lead is coming from the ground. There are only a few parts of the country where that tends to be an issue and New Jersey is not one of them.

The more likely explanation is that the acidity of the water is causing lead to leach from brass components in the plumbing (especially older ones with higher lead content) and lead solder. The original part of the house was built in 1896. Otherwise the house is in great shape and perfect for us, so I just want to find the right fix and ask the seller to take care of it. I'd love to hear from anyone who has dealt with this and what kind of system they used. It looks like there are a few ways to skin this cat from soda ash injection systems to limestone filters, but each have their pros and cons.

Will the RO plant works for you ? I think RO + UV will be the ideal solution. In addition to it you can also install dehumidifier.