Older stove recommendations

[Real1shepperd]

I have about 1,000 sq ft to heat. I have central heating but want a stove for supplemental heat, and, well, I've always liked wood heat. Not too much abundant hardwood around here, except for maple. I have a 100-year-old maple, which supplies me with a lot of wood due to climate change and errant storms. Lots of orchard wood around here as well. The price per cord is really not a problem.

Back in the day in Chehalis, WA I heated a small PNW bungalow with wood on my first farm. It had a nasty coal-fired furnace when we bought the place, and I replaced it with a very expensive soapstone air-tight stove. The first problem with it was that all the cement in the joints had fallen into the firebox during shipping to my house. Representative said yeah, common problem, we'll send you the cement! Next problem was learning how to use an air-tight... neighbor called one day and said, "Do you know you have a chimney fire going on right now?" That was from turning the stove down at night and not making a hot fire in the morning to burn off the creosote.

So... this present house has had a stove before, and a double-wall-insulated pipe above the FSP. I notice now they require an insulation shield around and on top of the FSP in the attic(sometimes called a 'thimble'?). I'll add that to the attic part.

I don't want to get into the modern EPA catalytic type stove. I like the look of the older Jotul118 or something similar with raised cast designs. I don't like the utilitarian look of smooth steel air tights. Since I'm not heating primarily with the stove, I'll give up some function for styling.

My criteria would be:
Used, around $1,000 maximum(unless proven to be flawless requiring no renovation)
Able to take 18" logs plus
Parts available for rebuilding inside the firebox, etc., if necessary
Fits in a corner of the house with existing piping. Don't want some giant that's the focal point of the room
It could be in a color other than black, if tastefully done
Window is a plus, but not a deal breaker
No CAT or newer EPA

What would be some recommendations?

Kevin

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I don’t think pre EPA stoves can be legally installed in Washington State.

 

[qwee]

In Washington State, pre-EPA stoves cannot be legally installed. The state has strict regulations that require all wood stoves and other wood-burning devices to be certified to meet both Washington and EPA standards for certification and labeling. This means that any wood stove that does not meet these standards is illegal to sell, resell, exchange, or give away. Additionally, the state has implemented a burn ban during colder months when air pollution from wood smoke becomes unhealthy, which does not apply to homes with no other source of heat.

 

[Real1shepperd]

Except this is an existing installation in rural WA. No legal authority in the state of WA has the wherewithal to come into my rural home and make me remove an older wood stove. This is the same state that has banned natural gas furnaces and appliances in new homes. I can tell you how that's going for the Olympia regulators on the older gas installs. The natural gas companies have barely raised their powerful heads so far.

I understand what you're saying and how you may be covering your own backsides. The idea is not to contribute to dangerous fire conditions here, but to enjoy safe woodburning in pre-EPA stoves. If nobody has the pants to recommend an older stove, I'll move on. Thank you, though.

Kevin

 

[begreen]

Look for an older Jotul F118, F602, Morso 2B, or Lange stove. In American made try to find a good condition Cawley-Lemay or an Upland. Or take a look at the Jotul F35 and the Pacific Energy T5 and learn to love a stove with a good fireview and performance.

 

[Southwestpaburner]

Except this is an existing installation in rural WA. No legal authority in the state of WA has the wherewithal to come into my rural home and make me remove an older wood stove. This is the same state that has banned natural gas furnaces and appliances in new homes. I can tell you how that's going for the Olympia regulators on the older gas installs. The natural gas companies have barely raised their powerful heads so far.

I understand what you're saying and how you may be covering your own backsides. The idea is not to contribute to dangerous fire conditions here, but to enjoy safe woodburning in pre-EPA stoves. If nobody has the pants to recommend an older stove, I'll move on. Thank you, though.

Kevin

No natural gas furnace or appliances, that's crazy left wing nut liberalism bull#$/%t if you ask me

 

[Real1shepperd]

Look for an older Jotul F118, F602, Morso 2B, or Lange stove. In American made try to find a good condition Cawley-Lemay or an Upland. Or take a look at the Jotul F35 and the Pacific Energy T5 and learn to love a stove with a good fireview and performance.

Thank you for that reply. I did look at a Lange online and like the design and appearance of the older stoves. However, nice stoves like that and Jotul are on the other side of the mountain. I figure I'll have to make the pilgrimage this summer. I really like the Jotul 118 and am doing all the research I can on that series. They are fairly plentiful on the other side of the mountain. However, taking a truck over there only to find out the casting is cracked, even though the owner says it's not, could prove to be disastrous gas-wise.

I didn't see Langes listed, but I'll pay more attention now and to the Morso. Lots of choices......

Kevin

 

[Real1shepperd]

No natural gas furnace or appliances, that's crazy left wing nut liberalism bull#$/%t if you ask me

We had a bat-crazy governor who did really spooky things for a long time. Too early to tell with the new governor, but we expect more of the same. Natural gas lines run underground all over the state, and some really big ones in rural WA. The gas companies haven't even begun to fight... they're watching the fallout right now.

Kevin

 

[bholler]

We had a bat-crazy governor who did really spooky things for a long time. Too early to tell with the new governor, but we expect more of the same. Natural gas lines run underground all over the state, and some really big ones in rural WA. The gas companies haven't even begun to fight... they're watching the fallout right now.

Kevin

To be fair the plan voted in by Washington voters does not ban gas appliances until 2066

 

[Real1shepperd]

To be fair the plan voted in by Washington voters does not ban gas appliances until 2066

I don't think that's entirely accurate, because new home contractors in any respectable-sized house on the rainy side aren't installing central gas furnaces. I haven't read the plan, but suspect there is some leniency on stoves, water heaters, and gas dryers. They're not fighting commercial installs yet because they know that's a bear they can't win against....yet. And think of all the restaurants, warehouses, and factories that use gas. Impossible legislation to work with. They're picking on residential contractors because they can.

The electric grid cannot handle a new legion of electric residential home furnaces. As with most legislation like this, the hope is that science and technology will find a way before 2066.

Kevin

 

[qwee]

You must be near Wenatchee - fruit wood is very good firewood. The big advantage of an EPA stove is that you burn less wood for the same amount of heat due to a higher efficiency. This equals less work. I'm not sure how the fruit trees stack up against each other - but I think apple is towards the top btu and cherry is lower btu (as compared to other fruit woods). Pear, peach, and apricot between these two. But peach/almond might be the highest btu.

 

[Real1shepperd]

You must be near Wenatchee - fruit wood is very good firewood. The big advantage of an EPA stove is that you burn less wood for the same amount of heat due to a higher efficiency. This equals less work. I'm not sure how the fruit trees stack up against each other - but I think apple is towards the top btu and cherry is lower btu (as compared to other fruit woods). Pear, peach, and apricot between these two. But peach/almond might be the highest btu.

Much further east than Whenatchee. We have a lot of orchard cherry wood. Plus, I can get a permit and cut as much forest wood as I want (tamarac, fir, and some pine). At 73, I'm not sure how much longer I can do that, but right now I'm fine.

I saw many complaints about the F118CB Jotul catalytic Bear. Many are not happy with the heat output and the reduced space inside the firebox. Guy in town wants a $1,200 for one "lightly used". He's dreaming in this town, as most will consider what he paid originally as his folly. He will take offers, though. I'm not sold on that model based on what was said chiefly on this site about it. That would save me a lot of gas $$$ though, just buying it local.

One owner I read wrote a long treatise on owning one, its quirky primary and secondary controls, and its low heat output. Nobody could fault his experience.

https://groups.io/g/woodheat/topic/jotul_f_118_cb_black_bear/60538552

Kevin

 

[bholler]

Much further east than Whenatchee. We have a lot of orchard cherry wood. Plus, I can get a permit and cut as much forest wood as I want (tamarac, fir, and some pine). At 73, I'm not sure how much longer I can do that, but right now I'm fine.

I saw many complaints about the F118CB Jotul catalytic Bear. Many are not happy with the heat output and the reduced space inside the firebox. Guy in town wants a $1,200 for one "lightly used". He's dreaming in this town, as most will consider what he paid originally as his folly. He will take offers, though. I'm not sold on that model based on what was said chiefly on this site about it. That would save me a lot of gas $$$ though, just buying it local.

One owner I read wrote a long treatise on owning one, its quirky primary and secondary controls, and its low heat output. Nobody could fault his experience.

https://groups.io/g/woodheat/topic/jotul_f_118_cb_black_bear/60538552

Kevin

You do know that is one of many modern stoves available many are still non cat stoves. I think you should do more research before ruling them out. I have used many stoves some pre epa some modern ones both cat and non cat. There is no way I would ever consider going back to a pre epa stove. They simply arent anywhere near as good

 

[bholler]

Much further east than Whenatchee. We have a lot of orchard cherry wood. Plus, I can get a permit and cut as much forest wood as I want (tamarac, fir, and some pine). At 73, I'm not sure how much longer I can do that, but right now I'm fine.

I saw many complaints about the F118CB Jotul catalytic Bear. Many are not happy with the heat output and the reduced space inside the firebox. Guy in town wants a $1,200 for one "lightly used". He's dreaming in this town, as most will consider what he paid originally as his folly. He will take offers, though. I'm not sold on that model based on what was said chiefly on this site about it. That would save me a lot of gas $$$ though, just buying it local.

One owner I read wrote a long treatise on owning one, its quirky primary and secondary controls, and its low heat output. Nobody could fault his experience.

https://groups.io/g/woodheat/topic/jotul_f_118_cb_black_bear/60538552

Kevin

As far as older stoves go the jotul and moroso stoves are good. As are the early Vermont castings. Dutch west were fantastic for their day and if you can find one so are the Cawley Lemays. The last 3 started making clean burn higher efficiency stoves before mandated to do so.

 

[Real1shepperd]

As far as older stoves go the jotul and moroso stoves are good. As are the early Vermont castings. Dutch west were fantastic for their day and if you can find one so are the Cawley Lemays. The last 3 started making clean burn higher efficiency stoves before mandated to do so.

It's really not practical to research six or more stove brands in depth to figure out their quirks and whether I would like them. But Jotul, Moroso, and Vermont Castings are names I have seen in the used market up to 150 miles away.

I stated at the beginning that I'm not spending on a new stove, and the stove must look appealing, not just utilitarian.

Kevin

 

[bholler]

It's really not practical to research six or more stove brands in depth to figure out their quirks and whether I would like them. But Jotul, Moroso, and Vermont Castings are names I have seen in the used market up to 150 miles away.

I stated at the beginning that I'm not spending on a new stove, and the stove must look appealing, not just utilitarian.

Kevin

Ok you dont have to buy new. I usually dont. But limiting yourself to stoves that are 40 or more years old based upon bad reviews of one modern stove seems silly.

 

[Real1shepperd]

Ok you dont have to buy new. I usually dont. But limiting yourself to stoves that are 40 or more years old based upon bad reviews of one modern stove seems silly.

"Silly"? I mentioned the F118CB Bear because there is one LOCAL, and it's not cheap. And where did I say I was only shopping for 40+-year-old stoves? The ones in the used sources, up to 150 miles away, are 30 years old and younger. I always ask how old they are, and I usually have second thoughts if they are approaching 30.

Kevin

 

[bholler]

"Silly"? I mentioned the F118CB Bear because there is one LOCAL, and it's not cheap. And where did I say I was only shopping for 40+-year-old stoves? The ones in the used sources, up to 150 miles away, are 30 years old and younger. I always ask how old they are, and I usually have second thoughts if they are approaching 30.

Kevin

I am sorry. I thought you had said you did not want an epa stove at all. But when I went back are read it again you just dont want a cat. Which gives you tons of options. Look at Hampton, pacific energy, napoleon, enviro, jotul, moroso, there were some cast quadrafires.

 

[Todd]

I always liked the looks of that F118CB. Almost bought one for my cabin but I read some reviews about that baffle tending to warp and crack. I do believe they fixed that with a two piece baffle system right before it was discontinued. Not sure what year they upgraded that baffle but I bet you can still purchase one from Jotul or Woodsman parts Plus.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I think I’d avoid cast unless it’s only clad in cast. Too much chance of needing to be resealed.

 

[bholler]

I think I’d avoid cast unless it’s only clad in cast. Too much chance of needing to be resealed.

Very good point. If I was buying something cast that was even just 10 years old I would tear it down and re seal it just to have a good fresh start. Especially after moving it the chances of leaks are pretty high

 

[EatenByLimestone]

With my luck I’d be fighting seized bolts from all the hot/cold cycles.

 

[bholler]

With my luck I’d be fighting seized bolts from all the hot/cold cycles.

Yes that is typical. I rarely do one without breaking a couple. It is rather annoying

 

[EbS-P]

With my luck I’d be fighting seized bolts from all the hot/cold cycles.

It’s not just you. I’m guessing every cast stove will break off bolts.

 

[Real1shepperd]

I am sorry. I thought you had said you did not want an epa stove at all. But when I went back are read it again you just dont want a cat. Which gives you tons of options. Look at Hampton, pacific energy, napoleon, enviro, jotul, moroso, there were some cast quadrafires.

That's OK, I'm glad we're clearer on a few issues. Yes, I do not want a cat stove, however great they may be. Next month, I'll be hitting the market for what's out there. I want to come back in when I find a few potential gems and get some feedback. A lot will depend on the pass and what the spring weather brings. Some years, it's pretty horrible until May, and then it's smooth sailing except for rain.

I always liked the looks of that F118CB. Almost bought one for my cabin but I read some reviews about that baffle tending to warp and crack. I do believe they fixed that with a two piece baffle system right before it was discontinued. Not sure what year they upgraded that baffle but I bet you can still purchase one from Jotul or Woodsman parts Plus.

There is a long and well-documented history of the basic F118 regarding baffle warpage. A guy did an entire rebuild, taking the stove apart and buying/installing new parts. Very detailed with pics, and I don't mind that a bit because at least I know I'll rebuild it correctly. Bolts breaking are part of the deal in cast anything that got hot. I really like the looks of that model, but I'm open to the many others that have been mentioned, which will be EPA stoves, just not cat.

I'll put together a list of what's been mentioned and compare it to what's for sale. Thanks for all the input so far!

Kevin