Optimum Installation from an Insurance Perspective

[Pavesa]

Hi,

I joined the forum back in March looking for advice on a woodstove for the house we have since bought.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/36207/

We finally bought a 4 year old Pacific Energy Spectrum from a guy around the corner from where we lived.

We've had a meeting with a carpenter who installs woodstoves, recommended by the local WETT Certified woodstove guy (actually the carpenter installed his woodstove). In my request for advice, I set up a picture with 4 different possible locations for the stove which can be seen at this link

http://perso.wanadoo.es/andrew.bagley/HouseDiag.htm

Our initial thoughts had been location C, but we're looking very favourably at putting it at location D because the Spectrum is fairly compact and wouldn't block the door from the Sitting Room to the Kitchen as much as the diagram would suggest. Putting it there, means that it is more central to the building, but also means it is between 2 doors which should aid heat flow from the stove to the rest of the house. We can close the door from the Kitchen into the hall and then hot air rising up the stairs will draw air from the kitchen into the sitting room around the stove and then out of the door into the hall. That's the theory anyway!

As we haven't yet had the stove installed, I'm beginning to wonder whether there is an optimal kind of setup from a safety/insurance perspective. We contacted our broker, but they just sent a form making no suggestions at all, pretty reasonable as I guess most new insurance policies on stoves would be for existing installations. I have contacted the insurance company but got handed by the reception (who sounded as though she thought I was barking mad to even enquire!) to leave a voicemail for somebody who likely won't call back.

Our plan is to have an interior Selkirk chimney. This would go through a closet in the bedroom above the sitting room and then out through the attic. Obviously, there may be detours necessary to get around joists etc..

Thanks for any advice

Andrew

 

[summit]

either way, i don't think the insurance company will mind all that much where you put it, as long as it is installed properly. If you have this chimney passing thru any closets, you will have to enclose it in the closet space to prevent things from being pushed into/onto it.
from a heating standpoint, i have a PE and am very pleased w/ it... the one caveat is that those things really direct the heat forward from the stove. location B would be my choice, as the forward flowing heat would cover thru the room, and be directed to the door openings on the other two walls. Also, that is the northern most wall, and heat likes to flow north to south, not south to north.

 

[Highbeam]

Your safer installation will include a chimney that is vertical and doesn't include "detours necessary to get around joists etc". Otherwise the unit will be equally likely to burn your house down from any location so long as it is installed per the specs and legally installed with permits and such. The only other variables (besides a good vertical chimney) that you can control are burning quality fuel, frequency and quality of maintenance, placing it where you won't run into it, placing it on the inside of a corner (think about kids running around the corner and falling onto it, and possibly screening the stove so that guests don't touch it.

You can always tear down the house and rebuild it with non-combustible materials, add a residential sprinkler system, monitored fire alarm, and never burn it but what fun is that.

A good chimney, a legal hearth, a legal installation, and you're all set. You should love the spectrum.

 

[fossil]

...heat likes to flow north to south, not south to north.

Actually, heat "likes" to flow from relatively high temperature to relatively low temperature. If it's natural convection you're talking about, it also likes to flow up. If it's radiation you're talking about, it's omnidirectional. Heat has no notion of compass direction. If you find that in a certain installation the heat from a stove seems to be more effectively distributed when the stove is on the north wall as opposed to the south wall, then that's gotta be because of airflow through the space. Heat doesn't know north from south...it only knows hot from cold, unless something else influences its motion. Rick

 

[fossil]

A, B, or C...but not D. You're gonna need space around the stove for clearances and hearth tools and the "ready service locker" of wood, and whatnot. Pay heed to what Highbeam said about placing that stove so that the connector pipe/chimney is as straight a vertical run as you can manage in your application. Does the stove have a blower kit on it? If not, is there one available for it? Rick

 

[Pavesa]

Hi,

thanks very much for all the suggestions.

The stove does have a blower on it.

Andrew

 

[TreePapa]

Option "D" looks like a personal injury ready to happen, with the likely foot traffic and all.

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

A, B, or C...but not D. You're gonna need space around the stove for clearances and hearth tools and the "ready service locker" of wood, and whatnot. Pay heed to what Highbeam said about placing that stove so that the connector pipe/chimney is as straight a vertical run as you can manage in your application. Does the stove have a blower kit on it? If not, is there one available for it? Rick

very good points, but if he can fit it in location d it'll be more centrally located

edit, i should read the whole thread....

 

[Pavesa]

Hi,

my question was really more about whether there were aspects of the installation that might give me a better insurance premium. For instance, double skin chimney pipe, using a brick wall surround, distances from combustibles etc? I live in Nova Scotia.

Andrew

 

[deck2]

Insurance Perspective?? I personally was not worried about my insurance cost as much as I was concerned about the safety of a fire in a steel box in my living room--but to each their own!

I think as long as you observe all the clearances, use approved and good quality piping/chimney and like others have said use good dry wood you should have a safe and reliable set up and thus make your insurance co. happy and help you to sleep after you load up the stove for a good overnight burn.

 

[fossil]

Your insurance carrier doesn't care what corner of the room the stove is in, they care that the installation is done safely and in accordance with the stove manufacturer's requirements. The manufacturer's manual for the stove will spell out in detail what clearances to combustible materials are required, and the insulative property and dimensions of the hearth protection beneath the appliance. The stovepipe (or connector pipe) which runs from the stove to the first penetration of the structure (ceiling, presumably, in your case) can be single or double wall. Single wall stovepipe requires more clearance from a combustible surface than double wall. At the penetration, an appropriate transition must be made, using a ceiling support box, from stovepipe to Class A chimney pipe for the rest of the run to daylight. If all of this is done properly then it makes no safety difference where the stove is located. For the best stove performance and ease of maintenance (periodic chimney cleaning) the best location is the one that allows for the straightest run of stovepipe/chimney all the way up. There are rules concerning how high the chimney must extend after exiting the roof, as well. Basically, it must extend up a minimum of 3' above the roof penetration, then (if necessary) it must further extend up to a point at least 2' above any portion of the structure within 10' horizontally from it. Any competent installer/chimney sweep should know all of this like the back of his or her hand. If you're planning to install the thing yourself, then there's a whole lot more to talk about. Rick

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

when we install a stove for someone who is concerned about insurance, we issue a saftey inspection report stating the install meets local/national codes and the manufacturers printed guidelines( the manual is the bible in most areas, Nova Scotia? consult your building dept.)


or better yet, have your installer install it to your local code
this is where pro's earn thier keep!
Dave
woodheatstoves

note: i have done inspections for tripple a, farmers and some smaller outfits. insurance companies want assurance from a pro that your system is SAFE, but all any inspector can tell them is if it is installed properly

 

[summit]

...heat likes to flow north to south, not south to north.

Actually, heat "likes" to flow from relatively high temperature to relatively low temperature. If it's natural convection you're talking about, it also likes to flow up. If it's radiation you're talking about, it's omnidirectional. Heat has no notion of compass direction. If you find that in a certain installation the heat from a stove seems to be more effectively distributed when the stove is on the north wall as opposed to the south wall, then that's gotta be because of airflow through the space. Heat doesn't know north from south...it only knows hot from cold, unless something else influences its motion. Rick

no one belives me when it comes to this... call the northeast and talk to any pro... it just don't go north. check it;
-----------------------------------------
I E I
I I
I N 1790sqft S I
I I
-----------I I----------
I W PE I
I------------------I


where the PE in my crude diagram of my houe's layout represents my stove. north, east soth, west clearly labeled. the north end is always 6-8 deg cooler than the rest of the house. the stove points in NE direction with blower on stove directing the air. there are no more rooms or divisions in the house on north side than on the south.

i am not the only one to see this. MY CTEP instrustor informed us of this fact when talking about plcement of propane heaters and lines. my NFI instructors told me of this when they were talking about placement of wood and pellet appliances, and my CSIA instructor talked of this as well. heat does not like going north... maybe its a little different in milder climes, but we got some mainah wintahs up here.

 

[Pavesa]

Hi,

thanks for all the information. I had presupposed a safe installation, really it was just to know if insurance companies just adore some setups that give cost effective premium reductions. You know what insurance companies can be like!

Sounds like insurance companies basically want a sensible safe setup. Ok, they aren't always random and illogical..

Andrew

 

[summit]

crude diagram did not come out so good... think of a T shape, north is the left PE is in the SW corner of the bottom half of the T

 

[Later]

Beautiful home! We tried to install an Jotul Oslo in a corner installation, the side door needed to be locked closed in order to meet our clearance requirements.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

Hi,

my question was really more about whether there were aspects of the installation that might give me a better insurance premium. For instance, double skin chimney pipe, using a brick wall surround, distances from combustibles etc? I live in Nova Scotia.

Andrew

short answer, no. at least not here in Ca

but if you want it closer to the wall etc, use double wall/ wall shields

 

[begreen]

One thing an insurance company is not going to like is a setup that looks like an injury accident waiting to happen. Location "D" sure looks like a setup for an accident unless perhaps the door is replaced with a room connecting window?

The insurance co is going to be most happy with an inspected and approved installation. That means following the stove documentation and local code. Note, it doesn't hurt to exceed the minimum clearances specifications! Our stove's clearances are greater in most directions than actually required. This will give you additional peace of mind when it's below zero outside and the stove has been running at 6-700 degrees for several hours.

 

[firefighterjake]

Echoing . . . not D. Even if you think there is plenty of room you will most likely find that when you figure in the size of the hearth (and most folks want a larger hearth than the minimum specs), tools, wood storage, etc. it may at best be somewhat in the flow of the foot traffic which is not a good idea and at worse it could partially block the area.

If it was me I would go with any of the other choices . . . and while there are some good arguments for keeping a chimney inside I have had excellent luck with running my chimney out and up the side of the house vs. going straight up through the roof (namely because I could not go straight up due to the construction of the house.) While I may lose some heat in this way (doesn't seem like much since the rooms upstairs are around 70 degrees still), I have not had a lot of excessive creosote build up as I thought I would . . . and in fact sweeping the chimney is wicked easy since I only have to take off a cap off a T and run the brushes straight up from the ground. Just something to think about.

 

[firefighterjake]

...heat likes to flow north to south, not south to north.

Actually, heat "likes" to flow from relatively high temperature to relatively low temperature. If it's natural convection you're talking about, it also likes to flow up. If it's radiation you're talking about, it's omnidirectional. Heat has no notion of compass direction. If you find that in a certain installation the heat from a stove seems to be more effectively distributed when the stove is on the north wall as opposed to the south wall, then that's gotta be because of airflow through the space. Heat doesn't know north from south...it only knows hot from cold, unless something else influences its motion. Rick

Seems to me we've heard this before in a thread . . . and I agree with you.

However, I'm wondering if the old north-south stove placement deal might not be so much related to the magnetic compass as it is related to the prevailing winds in Maine which tend to come from the Northwest for the most part. In old time (typical) drafty Maine farmhouses (and we're talking very old homes with little to no insulation and older windows) could the wind pushing from this direction be part of the reason perhaps why folks tended to place their stoves north vs. south?

Another possible idea might have to do with homes being placed for the southern exposure and warming up (somewhat) from the passive solar gain . . . again . . . just random thoughts by someone who really doesn't have a clue (yeah, that would be me.)